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[Ascension] Tactical Destroyer and Small Artillery balance updates

First post
Author
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
Jayai Syndicate
#41 - 2016-10-28 17:25:07 UTC
Sad, fast warp out by switching to prop mod was interesting.

Also why hec/jack get such unproportional scan res. increases to fessor/svip. Hecate's scan res. should go down to 500mm and Jack's to 495mm.
Lelob
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#42 - 2016-10-28 17:37:23 UTC
These nerfs are simply not enough. There is still no reason whatsoever to fly an assault frig instead of a t3d.
Cade Windstalker
#43 - 2016-10-28 17:55:00 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Since when have minmatar ever been an in your face brawling faction? Acs are mid range weapons, blasters are close range. Rifters scram kite (albeit terribly) already with acs. As do arty thrashers (that arent instalock fit). Jag is meant to scram kite. Wolf is arguably an in your face brawler, just has a poor slot layout.

The great thing about EVE is that no ship is "supposed" to fit anything, its all up to what the person wants to fly. Minny ships arent known to be robust to throw themselves into the guns of your hecate. So range control is kind of their thing.


Agreed that there is no "supposed to" in Eve, just sets of stats that players get to mash together and CCP making sure no one's stat-block tower gets too high above the pile.

The thing about ACs being mid-range weapons is only sort of true though. Their optimal is tiny even compared to Small Blasters and they sacrifice a lot of DPS to get out to small gun mid range. Realistically they've got a trade-off between DPS and range, and if they get in close enough they can use their tracking to get under the guns of long range opponents and deal a lot of DPS.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
Jayai Syndicate
#44 - 2016-10-28 21:27:19 UTC
Lelob wrote:
These nerfs are simply not enough. There is still no reason whatsoever to fly an assault frig instead of a t3d.

There won't be even if t3ds get nerfed into the ground, assaults just need a balance pass.
Cat Laartii
Doomheim
#45 - 2016-10-29 09:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Laartii
All in all good changes, but i would like to throw my 2 cents in on the jackdaw and hecate changes:

-The Jackdaw slot move seems unnecessary, but i can see how it would work. The issue is more that you're shifting its playstyle over more by a slot migration in that the 6 mid slots really shone when being utilized with an active tanked rocket build (with a generous amount of isk sunk into the build, ofc). Shifting the slots means that it's less worth the investment when you could fly a hawk now, which i think we'll be seeing more of.
TLDR; while the changes hurt the current Jackdaw gameplay a bit, it'll help bring back the hawk a bit more, and will encourage the Jackdaw meta to shift more towards light missile boats.

-I'm astonished that nobody had the good sense to exchange repair bonus from cycle time to repair amount. Small reps generally benefit far more from an amount boost, while the larger sized versions start benefitting more from cycle time reductions only because the duration between reps is comparatively long. The capacitor issues it faces don't outweigh the benefit of having a shorter cycle time.
Also, why is it still the odd duck out with being locked into mwd gameplay with the prop mod bonus? If anyone can recall a reason that was given specifically to curb its power, I'd like to hear it, but the only thing i can see it doing is being further hindered from a lack of an afterburner bonus that makes the T3D class so popular with 10mn afterburners. It would balance much better as a railgun platform if those changes were implemented, and allow its blasters to find their targets more often with an afterburner speed and agility bonus like the jackdaw enjoys.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#46 - 2016-10-29 09:36:52 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Lelob wrote:
These nerfs are simply not enough. There is still no reason whatsoever to fly an assault frig instead of a t3d.

There won't be even if t3ds get nerfed into the ground, assaults just need a balance pass.



Basically. Before grr t3d it was grrr pirate frigs after they were introduced on the server. CCP nerfed them in time and there still was no flood of AF's fly9ng around ....we just had 2 classes of frigates people were not rushing to fly in at that point.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#47 - 2016-10-29 09:54:33 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
...Before grr t3d it was grrr pirate frigs after they were introduced on the server. CCP nerfed them...


About that "nerf".

What happened was "anyone know what a Worm is? ...Never heard of it / never seen one in my life..." to OMG a drone can do wrecking shot??

Drone OP, CCP make nerf zee drone.


CCP: yeah, no good, drone make wrecking shot to poor faction warfare sissies. How about amputation?

After that New Eden got tactical destroyers.

Faction warfare sissy 1 flies sooper-dooper slasher and gets killed by destroyer. After that almost surprising outcome only one thing could be true, destroyer op.

Fact, there is only one of them op.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Lelob
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#48 - 2016-10-29 13:53:13 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
...Before grr t3d it was grrr pirate frigs after they were introduced on the server. CCP nerfed them...


About that "nerf".

What happened was "anyone know what a Worm is? ...Never heard of it / never seen one in my life..." to OMG a drone can do wrecking shot??

Drone OP, CCP make nerf zee drone.


CCP: yeah, no good, drone make wrecking shot to poor faction warfare sissies. How about amputation?

After that New Eden got tactical destroyers.

Faction warfare sissy 1 flies sooper-dooper slasher and gets killed by destroyer. After that almost surprising outcome only one thing could be true, destroyer op.

Fact, there is only one of them op.


Yeah so when t3ds were first introduced, you could literally do a x2 asb, 10mn ab, 200mm autocannon svipul that would faceroll over gangs, for under 100mil. They nerfed them a bit, but it is still to the point where t3d's have completely eclipsed:

-All Assault Frigates
-Most Hac gangs that are not cerbs
-Most intie gangs
-Most t1 cruiser gangs

I'd be willing to bet that there isn't a single decent alliance in eve that doesn't have some kind of t3d doctrine at this point.

I'll just do some of the top alliancess on zkill atm:

Project Mayham (#1 most used ship: svipul)
CO2 (#1 most used ship: svipul)
PL (#9 most used ship: svipul)
Pandemic Horde: (#1 most used ship: svipul)
Goons (no t3d's in top ships )
ncdot (no t3d's in top ships )
test ( #4 most used ship: svipul)

Let's look at the most used ships in space atm according to zkill:

Top Ships

Sabre
Sabre 8,454
Svipul 10,318
Stiletto 6,501
Proteus 3,547
Malediction 5,237
Gila 2,987
Tengu 2,945
Orthrus 3,646
Confessor 4,178
Machariel 3,565
Cynabal 3,280

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

http://imgur.com/a/o5g34

50k ehp before heat, 400 dps, goes 2.2k/s before heat (3k/s with heat...propulsion it goes 3.6k/s before heat and 5.1k/s with heat with a 3.13 second aligntime meaning you are basically top speed in 4 seconds), has a tiny sig, warps at 4.5au/s, aligns faster than inties, is cap stable, has combat probes, an empty highslot for w/e, costs under 100mil WITH FACTION AND T2 RIGS but OH NO, svipuls aren't ******* broken.

Seriously, these nerfs are nowhere near enough to address how broken these ships actually are. The tank is still massive, the warp speed/agility are still going to be great, sure the dps might be decreased but w/e. so you make do with 200-300dps, which is still alot more than anything comparable, you have a massive cargohold, great capacitor life, excellent resists. HELL, you can even lock more targets then a t3 cruiser (7 for a t3d, as opposed to 5 for a t3 cruiser).
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
Jayai Syndicate
#49 - 2016-10-29 17:57:40 UTC
Lelob wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
...Before grr t3d it was grrr pirate frigs after they were introduced on the server. CCP nerfed them...


About that "nerf".

What happened was "anyone know what a Worm is? ...Never heard of it / never seen one in my life..." to OMG a drone can do wrecking shot??

Drone OP, CCP make nerf zee drone.


CCP: yeah, no good, drone make wrecking shot to poor faction warfare sissies. How about amputation?

After that New Eden got tactical destroyers.

Faction warfare sissy 1 flies sooper-dooper slasher and gets killed by destroyer. After that almost surprising outcome only one thing could be true, destroyer op.

Fact, there is only one of them op.


Yeah so when t3ds were first introduced, you could literally do a x2 asb, 10mn ab, 200mm autocannon svipul that would faceroll over gangs, for under 100mil. They nerfed them a bit, but it is still to the point where t3d's have completely eclipsed:

-All Assault Frigates
-Most Hac gangs that are not cerbs
-Most intie gangs
-Most t1 cruiser gangs

I'd be willing to bet that there isn't a single decent alliance in eve that doesn't have some kind of t3d doctrine at this point.

I'll just do some of the top alliancess on zkill atm:

Project Mayham (#1 most used ship: svipul)
CO2 (#1 most used ship: svipul)
PL (#9 most used ship: svipul)
Pandemic Horde: (#1 most used ship: svipul)
Goons (no t3d's in top ships )
ncdot (no t3d's in top ships )
test ( #4 most used ship: svipul)

Let's look at the most used ships in space atm according to zkill:

Top Ships

Sabre
Sabre 8,454
Svipul 10,318
Stiletto 6,501
Proteus 3,547
Malediction 5,237
Gila 2,987
Tengu 2,945
Orthrus 3,646
Confessor 4,178
Machariel 3,565
Cynabal 3,280

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

http://imgur.com/a/o5g34

50k ehp before heat, 400 dps, goes 2.2k/s before heat (3k/s with heat...propulsion it goes 3.6k/s before heat and 5.1k/s with heat with a 3.13 second aligntime meaning you are basically top speed in 4 seconds), has a tiny sig, warps at 4.5au/s, aligns faster than inties, is cap stable, has combat probes, an empty highslot for w/e, costs under 100mil WITH FACTION AND T2 RIGS but OH NO, svipuls aren't ******* broken.

Seriously, these nerfs are nowhere near enough to address how broken these ships actually are. The tank is still massive, the warp speed/agility are still going to be great, sure the dps might be decreased but w/e. so you make do with 200-300dps, which is still alot more than anything comparable, you have a massive cargohold, great capacitor life, excellent resists. HELL, you can even lock more targets then a t3 cruiser (7 for a t3d, as opposed to 5 for a t3 cruiser).

You say T3Ds and talk only about svipul.
Galinius Valgani
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2016-11-01 08:57:19 UTC
So T3Ds aside.
Is there any other fit for Frigates or Destroyers now better usable because of the changes to small Artillery?
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#51 - 2016-11-01 20:24:28 UTC
There is a reason T3Ds were worth 6 pts in AT this year, and T1 cruisers were only 5.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#52 - 2016-11-02 03:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
elitatwo wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
...Before grr t3d it was grrr pirate frigs after they were introduced on the server. CCP nerfed them...


About that "nerf".

What happened was "anyone know what a Worm is? ...Never heard of it / never seen one in my life..." to OMG a drone can do wrecking shot??

Drone OP, CCP make nerf zee drone.


CCP: yeah, no good, drone make wrecking shot to poor faction warfare sissies. How about amputation?

After that New Eden got tactical destroyers.

Faction warfare sissy 1 flies sooper-dooper slasher and gets killed by destroyer. After that almost surprising outcome only one thing could be true, destroyer op.

Fact, there is only one of them op.



I was thinking many years back when dramiel new and shiny to the server. And....was used like mad. for good reason. If corrected everything about AF's sad state...and said yeah inty, I am trying to take your job too at least a little. recall 80 mil isk cost back when that cost actually was steep. 2009 80 mil isk. Pricey as hell for the time....but like the visa commercials went, priceless for what it got you.

But yeah feel bad for the worm. Yet another ship that could have stayed in better shape, imo, if CCP could find more refined ways to limit if not stop oversized prop mod fitting. 10 mn abuse imo the biggest factor that got it skylined and castrated.

Inb4 the oversized fans go but but...our fitting freedom. Most times I'd say have at, get your freak on fitting wise. Its when it wrecks nice ships and ccp's only recourse is to castrate ships grids and slot wise...yeah, its annoying as hell. SQL and code experience tells me its just a data field or 2 to make this happen. Can your ship class fit this? Data field says.....hell no.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#53 - 2016-11-02 03:54:08 UTC
Lelob wrote:
...Yeah so when t3ds were first introduced, you could literally do a x2 asb, 10mn ab, 200mm autocannon svipul that would faceroll over gangs, for under 100mil. They nerfed them a bit, but it is still to the point where t3d's have completely eclipsed:

-All Assault Frigates
-Most Hac gangs that are not cerbs
-Most intie gangs
-Most t1 cruiser gangs


You do know that I don't even fly those and the Confessor was nowhere near overpowered. Were they powerful for the - let me put it out there - completely new shipclass, yes.

Though one Sentinel and the Confessor would have a really bad day.

The Jackdaw came pre-nerfed into the game and when you tried to catch a possible target with 2k m/s and your target was only flying 2800m/s at the time and can shoot down any Jackdaw with perfect tracking.

The Hecate is an interesting one but even she has a glaring weakness inbuilt. I cannot see this boat as overpowered as she is made up to be.

This leaves only on suspect and it is not as rusty or duck tape as the lore would dictate is. Maybe there is "slight" (whine-)matar bias somewhere?

Which reminds me, when do the Amarr, the Caldari and Gallente faction get proper interdiction destroyers?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

GROUND XERO
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#54 - 2016-11-03 12:17:55 UTC
"Houston we have a problem!" ...

"Ok we will just change everything and see if it will fix it!"

TRUE

NCPL (Necromonger of new Eden) will make EVE great again!

Nick Bison
Iron Tarn
#55 - 2016-11-03 12:49:15 UTC
And still no one will be flying the Hecate.
It's a good ship but just isn't good enough to be competitive.
I am not sure what to change without making it OP so, just consider this post a whine ...

Nothing clever at this time.

Capsuleer Delta-03
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#56 - 2016-11-03 18:44:23 UTC
So, can we get skillpoints refunded for training Minmatar Tactical Destroyer V now? Had I known this when I trained it a month ago I really wouldn't have invested the time.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#57 - 2016-11-03 21:02:33 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Capsuleer Delta-03 wrote:
So, can we get skillpoints refunded for training Minmatar Tactical Destroyer V now? Had I known this when I trained it a month ago I really wouldn't have invested the time.



Now we know whose fault it is for getting the Svipul nerfed. They were waiting for YOU to train Minmatar Tactical Destroyer V. You should have trained it about 18 months ago. Blink

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Capsuleer Delta-03
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#58 - 2016-11-03 21:44:24 UTC
Now I'll train the T3 Cruisers, so that maybe ships that need to get nerfed will get nerfed.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#59 - 2016-11-04 00:14:53 UTC
Galinius Valgani wrote:
So T3Ds aside.
Is there any other fit for Frigates or Destroyers now better usable because of the changes to small Artillery?


Pretty much every frigate and destroyer in the minmatar line-up (and the dram) got a fitting buff in regards to powergrid. Thrashers and sabre in particularly will be able to fit some pretty mean 280mm fits. Jag also will be able to fit an MSE for about 8.8k EHP w/ 280's, scram/web and 180-200dps.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#60 - 2016-11-04 16:33:53 UTC
hecate has less powergrid than svipul confessor and has to fit more guns