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Thoughts on improving the game

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Quenching Waters
Doomheim
#21 - 2016-10-30 06:15:50 UTC
Xander Jade wrote:

Need: some type of real security in high security systems

Scenario 1: Pilot X has high standings with Empires A, C, G, and M .. he worked hard on standings with all 4, knowing this has loaded his cargo hold with items that he can sell 20 jumps away, in a freighter if he stayed at the helm it would take 1-2 hrs, so he sets it on autopilot.


So in essence you want the sandbox to be a fully controlled playground with monitors?

Now I understand the tedium of piloting a slow ship between trade hubs but CCP gives you the option to choose between trade offs.
Actively pilot and reduce the risks to an acceptable level, or autopilot and take your chances. Also having your webber scout ahead for reds is a good idea.

It's called actively playing the game.
Xander Jade
Honor Bound of Folkvangr
#22 - 2016-10-30 07:00:30 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
The whle point of EVE is to be a sandbox where you can build sandcastles and kick other people's sandcastles over, beat them up and take their bucket and shovel.

I am not sure what problem you are trying to solve, OP, but your proposed solution doesn't solve it.

Relying on faction police to keep you safe is a serious case of self deception. The gankers will start multiple characters, balance their standings, and find other ways to work around your proposed security system.

As it stands the best thing you can do is manage your risk: don't carry more than a billion ISK worth in a freighter. Tank your freighter. Do not autopilot through Uedama. Scout with another ship, if you see flashy skulls in local or Machariels parked on the gates, do not pass through the system.

You can move your trading to lower bulk items which can be safely transported in cloaky ships like blockade runners or exploration frigates. You can offload your hauling to contractors who take the risks while providing you with collateral.

Figure out what the problem is you are trying to solve, then find ways of handling it. Everyone else is playing by the same rules; if they can do things that you can't, the chances are that you are doing it wrong.


ok, so take the aspect of governments, if you go outside, and torch a car in front of police, and get away, but they know who you are, they start impounding your stuff .. you flee the country so you won't be caught ... that is a consequence ... in eve you have no consequence because there is low to no standard, I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying there needs to be a consequence. it needs to be more difficult, not something that a day one noob toon can do, .. if i was an empire that owned systems with gates i would make it so i could stop people i did not like ... criminals ... from comping within my borders, the tech is there but unused,
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#23 - 2016-10-30 10:00:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Xander Jade wrote:
ok, so take the aspect of governments, if you go outside, and torch a car in front of police, and get away, but they know who you are, they start impounding your stuff .. you flee the country so you won't be caught ... that is a consequence ... in eve you have no consequence because there is low to no standard, I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying there needs to be a consequence. it needs to be more difficult, not something that a day one noob toon can do, .. if i was an empire that owned systems with gates i would make it so i could stop people i did not like ... criminals ... from comping within my borders, the tech is there but unused,

It's a game, not real life. You can personally desire greater safety for you and more consequence for people who play different to you, but CCP have to consider all play styles that they want to allow.

In relation to what would happen IRL for criminal acts, it's irrelevant. Nothing we do in the game has any real value. It's all just entertainment and totally fictitious. When someone shoots a ship in game, they aren't torching someone's car. Nor is anything we do in RL anything like the society that exists in New Eden. RL and Eve are not comparable.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2016-10-30 10:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Xander Jade wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
The whle point of EVE is to be a sandbox where you can build sandcastles and kick other people's sandcastles over, beat them up and take their bucket and shovel.

I am not sure what problem you are trying to solve, OP, but your proposed solution doesn't solve it.

Relying on faction police to keep you safe is a serious case of self deception. The gankers will start multiple characters, balance their standings, and find other ways to work around your proposed security system.

As it stands the best thing you can do is manage your risk: don't carry more than a billion ISK worth in a freighter. Tank your freighter. Do not autopilot through Uedama. Scout with another ship, if you see flashy skulls in local or Machariels parked on the gates, do not pass through the system.

You can move your trading to lower bulk items which can be safely transported in cloaky ships like blockade runners or exploration frigates. You can offload your hauling to contractors who take the risks while providing you with collateral.

Figure out what the problem is you are trying to solve, then find ways of handling it. Everyone else is playing by the same rules; if they can do things that you can't, the chances are that you are doing it wrong.


ok, so take the aspect of governments, if you go outside, and torch a car in front of police, and get away, but they know who you are, they start impounding your stuff .. you flee the country so you won't be caught ... that is a consequence ... in eve you have no consequence because there is low to no standard, I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying there needs to be a consequence. it needs to be more difficult, not something that a day one noob toon can do, .. if i was an empire that owned systems with gates i would make it so i could stop people i did not like ... criminals ... from comping within my borders, the tech is there but unused,

It's a game, not real life. You can personally desire greater safety for you and more consequence for people who play different to you, but CCP have to consider all play styles that they want to allow.

In relation to what would happen IRL for criminal acts, it's irrelevant. Nothing we do in the game has any real value. It's all just entertainment and totally fictitious. When someone shoots a ship in game, they aren't torching someone's car. Nor is anything we do in RL anything like the society that exists in New Eden. RL and Eve are not comparable.

Yes but by the same token it must follow some kind of logic. EvE many times has been called the wild west of space. Criminals should be dead or alive and the cops should be trying to gun them down and help anyone else that is trying too.

Edit and by criminal I mean someone with below -5, not someone doing their 199th kill in hi-sec so they get a 15 minute criminal timer.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#25 - 2016-10-30 10:10:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Mark Marconi wrote:
Yes but by the same token it must follow some kind of logic. EvE many times has been called the wild west of space. Criminals should be dead or alive and the cops should be trying to gun them down and help anyone else that is trying too.

The whole notion that it logically should be somehow different at its root comes back to comparisons to how things are in our society and a kind of expectation that the standards we live by should apply to New Eden.

Yet if you go back just 4-5 generations in our real societies, the treatment of people and attitudes towards certain acts was very different. Go back 10 generations and it's very different again.

From history, it's easy to see huge shifts in what is ok, within just a few generations, so trying to apply current standards to 50,000 generations into the future is completely arbitrary. It's nothing but personal opinion.

Personal opinion is fine. It just doesn't mean it is 'realistic', 'logical' or what 'should' be.

We are all entitled to our different opinions, just not the ability to say that what we think is a realistic expectation of what things should be in New Eden. As a society it doesn't play by our RL rules. It has it's own unique set and that's what matters in determining what is logical.
Vigirr
#26 - 2016-10-30 10:19:09 UTC
EVE is a pvp centric sandbox where anything goes and no one is safe or innocent. Why did you start playing it if you don't like that concept? Why should the players who DO understand what EVE is and DO like it for that have to adapt to someone who started playing the wrong game?
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2016-10-30 10:20:06 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Yes but by the same token it must follow some kind of logic. EvE many times has been called the wild west of space. Criminals should be dead or alive and the cops should be trying to gun them down and help anyone else that is trying too.

The whole notion that it logically should be somehow different at its root comes back to comparisons to how things are in our society and a kind of expectation that the standards we live by should apply to New Eden.

Yet if you go back just 4-5 generations in our real societies, the treatment of people and attitudes towards certain acts was very different. Go back 10 generations and it's very different again.

So we see huge shifts in what is ok, even just within a few generations, so trying to apply current standards to 50,000 generations into the future is completely arbitrary. It's nothing but personal opinion; and personal opinion is fine. It just doesn't mean it is 'realistic', or what 'should' be.

We are all entitled to our different opinions, just not the ability to say that what we think is realistic.

With EvE lore, there society went into barbarism and chaos for the majority of time with the Minmitar only just getting out of slavery. If anything their cultural standards are lower than ours (for the main stream).

Letting mass murdering criminals in time and again is not some version of reality it is the very definition of insanity. As I said it needs to make some logical sense and at the moment it does not.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#28 - 2016-10-30 10:20:15 UTC
Xander Jade wrote:
ok, so take the aspect of governments, if you go outside, and torch a car in front of police, and get away, but they know who you are, they start impounding your stuff … if i was an empire that owned systems with gates i would make it so i could stop people i did not like ... criminals ... from comping within my borders, the tech is there but unused,


Take, for example, the USA. You can wander the streets in many states with a gun holstered at your hip. The police will only interfere when you take it out and shoot someone.

The game does differ from reality in many ways, mostly because it's intended as a PVP environment (apocryphally EVE stands for "Everyone Versus Everyone"). There are things that need to be possible for PVP to happen that don't really make sense to you and me as citizens of a world were "PVP" type activity is discouraged.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2016-10-30 10:22:39 UTC
Vigirr wrote:
EVE is a pvp centric sandbox where anything goes and no one is safe or innocent. Why did you start playing it if you don't like that concept? Why should the players who DO understand what EVE is and DO like it for that have to adapt to someone who started playing the wrong game?

Except I started playing it under a different set of rules to those that now exist, as did so many others.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#30 - 2016-10-30 10:23:06 UTC
I'd also like to note that torching a car is not difficult, at all and doesn't require a substantial financial investment or special equipment to do. Any moron can do it with a rag and a lighter. There's also various civil disobedience scenarios where aforementioned morons do it in front of police and get away with it.

And this is without them being immortal, hyper-rich super beings that function entirely outside of the normal concepts of citizenship.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#31 - 2016-10-30 10:25:45 UTC
I am an industrial player - also known as "prey". I do not want New Eden to become a safer place. If there were no predators there would be a lot more competition, reducing my profits. In Eve, as in nature there needs to be a balance - to few predators and the prey population increases until everyone starves. To many predators and the prey disappears so the predators starve.

Learning how to survive is part of the challenge in Eve but it can be done. I've lost 1 ship to PVP in highsec in 3 years - that was on the dock in Jita. I learned from the experience and adjusted the way I do things so it's less likely to happen again.

If you want reward, you need to accept some risk. Those who learn to manage that risk effectively will prosper.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#32 - 2016-10-30 10:40:07 UTC
OP is willing to work hard on his standings. But he doesn't want to work hard to get his precious freigter to the next hub.

Let's get rid of standings, so he doesn't need to grind, can focus his time and actually play the game casually. Being nothing but a timesink, standings have always been a stupid game mechanic, no matter the game. And that's true especially for casual gamers.

Remove standings and insurance.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#33 - 2016-10-30 10:42:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Mark Marconi wrote:
As I said it needs to make some logical sense and at the moment it does not.

I guess thankfully for my view, there is a company of about 600 employees (across all their games and locations), with the bulk working on Eve Online that thankfully see some logic in how they design the game.

Hopefully they continue the same path where we all have choice and where if I want to affect you (or vice versa), then it's up to me to personally do it and not rely on CCP to save my behind.
Vigirr
#34 - 2016-10-30 10:49:19 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Vigirr wrote:
EVE is a pvp centric sandbox where anything goes and no one is safe or innocent. Why did you start playing it if you don't like that concept? Why should the players who DO understand what EVE is and DO like it for that have to adapt to someone who started playing the wrong game?

Except I started playing it under a different set of rules to those that now exist, as did so many others.


No you haven't, you assumed you did.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2016-10-30 10:49:48 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
As I said it needs to make some logical sense and at the moment it does not.

I guess thankfully for my view, there is a company of about 600 employees (across all their games and locations), with the bulk working on Eve Online that thankfully see some logic in how they design the game.

Hopefully they continue the same path where we all have choice and where if I want to affect you (or vice versa), then it's up to me to personally do it and not rely on CCP to save my behind.

You mean there used to be a company of about 600 employees, who thought they saw some logic.

Bringing us to today where after that wonderful logic we now are about to have free to play.

If they continue down the same path as the last 5 years they have 3 years tops.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2016-10-30 10:50:54 UTC
Vigirr wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Vigirr wrote:
EVE is a pvp centric sandbox where anything goes and no one is safe or innocent. Why did you start playing it if you don't like that concept? Why should the players who DO understand what EVE is and DO like it for that have to adapt to someone who started playing the wrong game?

Except I started playing it under a different set of rules to those that now exist, as did so many others.


No you haven't, you assumed you did.

Please go back to your crayons and finger painting.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Vigirr
#37 - 2016-10-30 10:57:52 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Vigirr wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Vigirr wrote:
EVE is a pvp centric sandbox where anything goes and no one is safe or innocent. Why did you start playing it if you don't like that concept? Why should the players who DO understand what EVE is and DO like it for that have to adapt to someone who started playing the wrong game?

Except I started playing it under a different set of rules to those that now exist, as did so many others.


No you haven't, you assumed you did.

Please go back to your crayons and finger painting.


Eve has always been a pvp centric sandbox, just because you didn't realise this and don't want to hear or adapt to that doesn't mean you can just wish it away.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#38 - 2016-10-30 11:00:28 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
If they continue down the same path as the last 5 years they have 3 years tops.

Roll yeah sure.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2016-10-30 11:06:16 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
If they continue down the same path as the last 5 years they have 3 years tops.

Roll yeah sure.

No they are bringing out free to play because they are doing so well.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2016-10-30 11:08:34 UTC
Vigirr wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Vigirr wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Vigirr wrote:
EVE is a pvp centric sandbox where anything goes and no one is safe or innocent. Why did you start playing it if you don't like that concept? Why should the players who DO understand what EVE is and DO like it for that have to adapt to someone who started playing the wrong game?

Except I started playing it under a different set of rules to those that now exist, as did so many others.


No you haven't, you assumed you did.

Please go back to your crayons and finger painting.


Eve has always been a pvp centric sandbox, just because you didn't realise this and don't want to hear or adapt to that doesn't mean you can just wish it away.

Yes EvE has always been a PvP sandbox. That however does not alter the fact I and many others started playing to different rules than those that exist now.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.