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Changing the Muninn to a Missile ship

Author
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1 - 2016-10-27 16:31:35 UTC
After thinking a bit about the Muninn. I dont know if i would ever use it for artillery while the fleet cane is around. Fleet cane will always have more alpha, tracking, tank, utility, drones (and MJD) than the Muninn will have, even if they fix the slot layout.

I was thinking on what if we changed it to a mini claymore?

Was thinking something like this:

Minmatar cruiser bonus:
10% launcher heavy assault and heavy missile RoF per level
7.5% Shield boost amount per level

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonus
5% bonus to missile explosion velocity per level
10% bonus to missile flight time per level (range bonus in alignment with all HAC bonuses)

Highs = 6
Mids = 5
Lows = 4

5 launcher hardpoints, plus one utility high

Drone bay/bandwidth = 25-40m3

Currently, there are no HACs with a missile application bonus. This separates the munnin from the cerb. Its not a missile sniper, but something that would apply damage without relying on RLML. It would also have the ability to brawl and face tank an enemy, instead of trying to kite around like its brother, the vagabond.

Thoughts?
Tiberius NoVegas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2016-10-27 17:00:17 UTC
If they did that then the muninn will suffer from the same issue vs the Claymore as it currently does against the cane.

However the muninn is fine as is. its a cruiser, not a BC and will have less damage output as accordingly. however as a cruiser it has more speed and this gives it better use in certain scenarios over a BC.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#3 - 2016-10-27 17:24:23 UTC
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:
If they did that then the muninn will suffer from the same issue vs the Claymore as it currently does against the cane.

However the muninn is fine as is. its a cruiser, not a BC and will have less damage output as accordingly. however as a cruiser it has more speed and this gives it better use in certain scenarios over a BC.


No. The fleet cane costs about 160-170m. Muninn costs 140-180m depending on where you buy it. Claymore costs 220-300m.

Fleet cane has comparable cost (plus insures better) with better stats. Claymore and Muninn do not share the same cost:stats ratio.

Explain to me how the Muninn is fine. Its terrible in fleets, in solo and its ONLY redeeming quality is speed and sig. Which tbf, is only 300m/s faster than my fleet cane. In fleets its fit as a shield fit (2 slot tank) which barely gets it to 25k EHP. Fleet Cane can get a much better shield tank. Armor muninns have no damage and are slow, bad combo for an arty platform.

In case you havent noticed, most of the large groups are using hurricanes or fleet canes in fleets, not muninns. They live longer even though theyre slower with bigger sigs.

So explain to me how the Muninn is fine, and if its fine why is it hardly used outside of gate/station camps?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2016-10-27 17:31:14 UTC
Is the problem the muninn, or is the problem medium projectiles?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#5 - 2016-10-27 17:40:09 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Is the problem the muninn, or is the problem medium projectiles?


In this case, the muninn. Slot layout isnt good for arty of acs. Hard to brawl with 3 mids, and arty+armor tank is bad combo.

650s being garbage doesnt help, but even then, 720s will fit with a kite setup, its just lack luster for the cost and has low tank. Fitting is tight as well.

My original thought was to drop a turret on the muninn and increase damage bonus from 5% to 10% per level. Then moving a high to a mid. I just dont know if thats enough to make it a better option than the fleet cane.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#6 - 2016-10-27 17:41:34 UTC
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:


However the muninn is fine as is.



Do you even play this game?

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Piugattuk
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#7 - 2016-10-27 17:42:07 UTC
Many Minnie ship are confused, they are like half/half on everything, but when you split the weapons it kinda kills the DPS.
Tiberius NoVegas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2016-10-27 18:26:27 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Many Minnie ship are confused, they are like half/half on everything, but when you split the weapons it kinda kills the DPS.



Ive wanted to complain about this in the past but being that its been like that for years i dont see the point anymore.

the muninn does what its suppose to do. there are other ships more effective at what it does but this more of a balance issue as every know Assault Cruisers are not what they use to be anymore. If you change the muninn any argument you make would also apply to the Zealot as it suffers from the Navy Harbringer. Your issue isnt with the muninn, its with Assault Cruisers compared to there fleet issue BC
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#9 - 2016-10-27 19:09:47 UTC
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Many Minnie ship are confused, they are like half/half on everything, but when you split the weapons it kinda kills the DPS.



Ive wanted to complain about this in the past but being that its been like that for years i dont see the point anymore.

the muninn does what its suppose to do. there are other ships more effective at what it does but this more of a balance issue as every know Assault Cruisers are not what they use to be anymore. If you change the muninn any argument you make would also apply to the Zealot as it suffers from the Navy Harbringer. Your issue isnt with the muninn, its with Assault Cruisers compared to there fleet issue BC


The only minny ships with split weapons still is the typhoon FI and scyfi.

Every race has 2 weapon systems. Minny is missiles and projectiles, caldari hybrid and missiles, gal hybrid and drones, amarr lasers, missiles and drones. So if anything, amarr are more confused that minmatar.

What exactly does the muninn do? Can you tell me what is its role? If you tell me its an armor arty platform, then think carefully about why that is a very bad idea in almost every way. If you say its a shield alpha doctrine (arguably the only thing it does right, sort of) then why does it only have 3 mids? Its role does not match its slot layout. It is not "fine".

Its underused and its KB proves it. Its underused because its trash in comparison to not only the fleet cane, but other long range HACs. Or other doctrine ships that are available.

I dont compare the zealot to the navy harb, because zealot doesnt get a tracking bonus. The zealot is bad in the current meta because its slow with no utility. Not because the navy harb outperforms it in the same role (hint, it doesnt), but because it also needs updating. The zealot shoots farther, does similar damage and uses less cap with a smaller sig than the harb.

In comparison of the fleet cane and muninn, the muninn tracks less, has the same range, less tank, less alpha/dps, less utility, less payout from insurance and costs the same as a fleet cane (navy harb more expensive than zealot).

So before you put words in my mouth, you should really review what im talking about.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#10 - 2016-10-27 19:11:29 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Many Minnie ship are confused, they are like half/half on everything, but when you split the weapons it kinda kills the DPS.



Ive wanted to complain about this in the past but being that its been like that for years i dont see the point anymore.

the muninn does what its suppose to do. there are other ships more effective at what it does but this more of a balance issue as every know Assault Cruisers are not what they use to be anymore. If you change the muninn any argument you make would also apply to the Zealot as it suffers from the Navy Harbringer. Your issue isnt with the muninn, its with Assault Cruisers compared to there fleet issue BC


This month, per zkill:

Zealot: 3529 kills
Muninn: 868 kills. Incidentally, this is last place for standard HACs.

Navy Harb: 1,849
Fleet 'cane: 3,995

It's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about wrt to the relative value of different ships in the current meta.

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Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation
#11 - 2016-10-27 19:15:06 UTC
For ships not set up for their role, how about the vagabond? 4 Mid slots and 5 lows for a shield ship? Sure you can fit it for damage and speed, but utility? You may be better to fit it for armor for any sort of pvp. At least with the Munin it is dedicated Armor, and while 4 mids would make it awsome you can get by with three, even for brawling, which is how I see it best being fit. High speed autocannon fit.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#12 - 2016-10-27 19:35:48 UTC
Deckel wrote:
For ships not set up for their role, how about the vagabond? 4 Mid slots and 5 lows for a shield ship? Sure you can fit it for damage and speed, but utility? You may be better to fit it for armor for any sort of pvp. At least with the Munin it is dedicated Armor, and while 4 mids would make it awsome you can get by with three, even for brawling, which is how I see it best being fit. High speed autocannon fit.


Because first and foremost the vagabond is a kiter. It was always a ship used to kite with autocannons. You dont want a t2 matar resist profile, shield boost bonused ship that goes 2700m/s cold also having 5 or 6 mids. It can already tank 1k dps with certain fits with just 4mids. Having 5 or 6 mids would make it rediculous. The muninn will be slower in comparison.

The current optimal bonus does nothing for acs, the muninn is an arty platform, but it struggles to perform that role. Since armor tank uses lots of grid, and so does artillery, so it struggles to fit decent tank and get good damage/projection.
Tiberius NoVegas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2016-10-27 19:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius NoVegas
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Many Minnie ship are confused, they are like half/half on everything, but when you split the weapons it kinda kills the DPS.



Ive wanted to complain about this in the past but being that its been like that for years i dont see the point anymore.

the muninn does what its suppose to do. there are other ships more effective at what it does but this more of a balance issue as every know Assault Cruisers are not what they use to be anymore. If you change the muninn any argument you make would also apply to the Zealot as it suffers from the Navy Harbringer. Your issue isnt with the muninn, its with Assault Cruisers compared to there fleet issue BC


The only minny ships with split weapons still is the typhoon FI and scyfi.

Every race has 2 weapon systems. Minny is missiles and projectiles, caldari hybrid and missiles, gal hybrid and drones, amarr lasers, missiles and drones. So if anything, amarr are more confused that minmatar.

What exactly does the muninn do? Can you tell me what is its role? If you tell me its an armor arty platform, then think carefully about why that is a very bad idea in almost every way. If you say its a shield alpha doctrine (arguably the only thing it does right, sort of) then why does it only have 3 mids? Its role does not match its slot layout. It is not "fine".

Its underused and its KB proves it. Its underused because its trash in comparison to not only the fleet cane, but other long range HACs. Or other doctrine ships that are available.

I dont compare the zealot to the navy harb, because zealot doesnt get a tracking bonus. The zealot is bad in the current meta because its slow with no utility. Not because the navy harb outperforms it in the same role (hint, it doesnt), but because it also needs updating. The zealot shoots farther, does similar damage and uses less cap with a smaller sig than the harb.

In comparison of the fleet cane and muninn, the muninn tracks less, has the same range, less tank, less alpha/dps, less utility, less payout from insurance and costs the same as a fleet cane (navy harb more expensive than zealot).

So before you put words in my mouth, you should really review what im talking about.


I was referring the Zealots damage compared to Harbringer. The Munin does what its suppose to as an Assault Cruiser plain and simple. how ever were the real difference is made is in its tank. because of this players commonly choose the cane over the muninn resulting in the kill board statistical difference. I think the whole Minnie line up should be shield boosters but CCP seems to have no interest in this. I don't know why and I really wish CCP would address this but like I said before, at this point I think its a mute issue.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#14 - 2016-10-27 20:14:03 UTC
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:


I was referring the Zealots damage compared to Harbringer. The Munin does what its suppose to as an Assault Cruiser plain and simple. how ever were the real difference is made is in its tank. because of this players commonly choose the cane over the muninn resulting in the kill board statistical difference. I think the whole Minnie line up should be shield boosters but CCP seems to have no interest in this. I don't know why and I really wish CCP would address this but like I said before, at this point I think its a mute issue.



Oh, my god. This is like watching a blind guy argue with Bob Ross over what a happy little tree should look like.

Support the statement that the Muninn does what it's supposed to do as an assault cruiser. I'll even settle for something anecdotal. Share your effective Muninn fit. Regale us with a story of a hard won battle fought in a Muninn.

Have you ever even undocked a Muninn? Serious question.

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#15 - 2016-10-28 12:41:27 UTC
Before the minmatar get a ship with a 10% rate of fire and 5% damage bonus per level and have it fit 3-4 ballistic controls and with the shield-resistance that has no weakness, maybe we can have someone take a look at heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles first mkay?

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SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#16 - 2016-10-28 14:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
elitatwo wrote:
Before the minmatar get a ship with a 10% rate of fire and 5% damage bonus per level and have it fit 3-4 ballistic controls and with the shield-resistance that has no weakness, maybe we can have someone take a look at heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles first mkay?


Maybe. Maybe you could bugger off to a thread about that topic instead of co-opting this one?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#17 - 2016-10-28 15:43:29 UTC
Personally, i like the idea of missile minmatar HAC
But bonuses must in line with other HAC's and no better that Cerberus

Current Muninn

Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage
Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

so your 10% ROF must be divided. Something like that:

Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile explosion velocity (minmatar missile bonus for T2 ships)

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire
7.5% bonus to Shield Booster amount
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#18 - 2016-10-28 15:52:11 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Before the minmatar get a ship with a 10% rate of fire and 5% damage bonus per level and have it fit 3-4 ballistic controls and with the shield-resistance that has no weakness, maybe we can have someone take a look at heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles first mkay?


Actually there is no 5% damage bonus. Only 10% RoF per level. Fitting can easily compensate your worries. Deimos doesnt really have a weakness, short of just out dps'ing and tanking it. Seems to be ok to me.

HAMS are fine, minus maybe a minor damage buff. Yea HML need some help, but that shouldnt affect adjusting a ship that is underutilized as well as fleshing out minmatar HAC line with secondary weapon system
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#19 - 2016-10-28 15:56:58 UTC
Uriam Khanid wrote:
Personally, i like the idea of missile minmatar HAC
But bonuses must in line with other HAC's and no better that Cerberus

Current Muninn

Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage
Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

so your 10% ROF must be divided. Something like that:

Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile explosion velocity (minmatar missile bonus for T2 ships)

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire
7.5% bonus to Shield Booster amount


The problem with that setup, is there is no range bonus. Every HAC has a range bonus to its weapon system. Hence why i decided to roll with a 10% bonus for RoF, to free a slot for range bonus.

Deimos = falloff
Ishtar = range bonus on sentries (and heavies IIRC)
Eagle = optimal
Cerb = velocity and flight time
Vagabond = falloff
Muninn = optimal
Zealot = optimal
Sacrilege = missile velocity

So, with your recommendation, it would have no range bonuses. Not that id be too terribly concerned, but it wouldnt fit with the HAC line.
Cristl
#20 - 2016-10-28 16:19:58 UTC
There's no way a ship will get a 10% rate of fire bonus per level unless it is a split-weapon ship, so be realistic. 10% ROF would double the dps at level V for a single weapon system. That isn't going to happen.

I'm not against a Minmatar missile HAC though, and the Muninn is certainly a flawed concept to be honest. Artillery just don't synergise with armour tanking.

For nostalgia, here's a post I made back in 2008. While many changes have made that post inapplicable to the modern game, it's still true (and a shame) that the Muninn hasn't had a single day in the sun for eight years Sad
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