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T3C overhaul

Author
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-10-28 00:49:55 UTC
A lot of people are complaining because of how broken and over powered the T3Cs are, my rework is probably also broken for different reasons, but I had fun working on it. We won't know if this is any better than the current one, unless we actually test it on Sisi.
My concept for this rework was quite simple: I gathered the ships together, smashed them between two Avatars, then collected the still useful parts and tried to put them back together with the help of some leftover metal scraps and duct tape.

I'll try to summarize the changes first, then go to the individual ships.
First, the Strategic Cruisers skill may or may not should lose the heat damage reduction bonus, while gets capacitor capacity, capacitor recharge, CPU and power grid bonuses, but not equally: Legion gets more capacity, Proteus gets more recharge, Tengu gets CPU and Loki gets power grid - I think this is how they benefit from these the most. Also, let's assume that even if this skill if maxed, you will be a bit short on CPU or power grid for some full T2 fits, so low slot modules/rigs/implants will be necessary, or just use faction modules with lower requirements.
This removed a few subsystems, that had to be replaced with new ones, wile I was playing with the rest based on what should be in the same group so you have to choose, and what needs to be separated to get more benefits. Also, I was reducing the really high amount of equipment slots on some modules, mostly on the offensive systems.

Speaking of offensive subsystems:
Each ship has a "primary" and a "secondary" weapon bonused system, and I moved both the warfare processor and the remote armor rep/remote shield boost systems in this group. This way the offensive subsystems will determine a primary role for the ships, by making them either combat, command or support cruisers. Also, the warfare links are being reworked, so let's just assume that it's effect bonus is balanced well enough.

Electronics subsystems:
I thought the general sensor boost and the probe subsystems are fine. There is a fleet support system (Tengu and Proteus) and a combat support system (Legion and Loki) here, and the last one is a faction-EWAR bonused subsystem: weapon disruption for Legion, ECM for Tengu, sensor dampener for Proteus and target painting for Loki.

Engineering subsystems:
The covert reconfiguration moved here, this subsystem is the same for all ships. The weapon bonus here is replaced with signature radius reduction, so even if you don't want to use the cloak, the subsystem still gives you a somewhat remotely related side effect. Then here is a weapon booster subsystem, that gives different benefits than the offensive systems. The overheating damage reduction is also this group. Last system here is different for each ship, 3 of them are similar though.

Defensive subsystems:
Each ship has an amount booster for it's primary defense (Augmented Plating and Supplemental Screening and please tell me I'm not the only one who thinks that the Loki's current defense systems are all over the place). The second system in this group is a "faction defense method" that gives resistance bonus (Legion and Tengu), or rep/boost bonus (Loki and Proteus). Then here comes the "inverse" of the offensive remote rep systems: the defensive weapon systems. Hey, shooting back counts as defense right? This system gives the least amount of defense, while giving a smaller boost than the offensive systems to all weapons the faction is using. This module also comes with a small drone bay. Anyone who picks this system basically accepts that the main defense will either be T2 glass plates or layered tinfoil. Being in a fleet is extremely recommended here. The fourth defensive system gives a decent amount of base shield or armor, while increasing the agility of the ship. These last two systems have no armor or shield related bonuses.

Propulsion subsystems:
I think these are mostly fine, I only modified the equipment slots on a few of them.

TLDR... let's see the ship setups!

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-10-28 00:50:53 UTC
Legion

Offensive:
- Liquid Crystal Magnifiers: 10% bonus to medium energy weapon damage, optimal range and capacitor use reduction - 3 high slots, 3 turret hardpoints, 2 low slots.
- Assault Optimization: 5% heavy assault missile damage bonus and 5% missile launcher rate of fire bonus - 3 high slots, 3 launcher hardpoints, 2 low slots.
- Remote Nano-Assembler Overdrive: 10% bonus to remote armor repairer effectiveness - 3 high slots, 2 turret and launcher hardpoints, 2 low slots.
- Warfare Processor: bonus to warfare link effectiveness - 3 high slots, 2 turret and launcher hardpoints, 1 low slot.

Defensive:
- Augmented Plating: 7.5% armor hitpoint bonus - 2 low slots.
- Membrane Recalibration: 4% bonus to all armor resistances - 2 low slots.
- Armament Extension: 5% bonus to energy turret and missile damage, 2.5% bonus to drone damage and HP - 2 high slots, 2 hardpoints for turrets and launchers, 1 low slot, 50m3 drone bay, 50Mbit bandwith.
- Inertia Core Upgrade: 2% agility bonus - 1 high slot, 1 turret and launcher hardpoint, 2 low slots.

Electronics:
- Emergent Locus Analyzer: probe system, gives the same bonuses as it does now - 1 high slot, 1 mid slot.
- Dissolution Sequencer: 15% bonus to ship sensor strength 5% bonus to max targeting range - 2 mid slots, 1 low slot.
- Energy Linking Complex: 10% bonus to enegy vampire and energy netralizer transfer amount, 25% bonus to remote capacitor transmitter range - 1 high and 1 mid slot.
- Weapon Distruption Projector: 10% bonus to weapon disruptor effectiveness - 2 mid slots.

Engineering:
- Covert Reconfiguration: allows the use of cov-ops cloak, 5% signature radius reduction - 1 high slot, 1 turret and missile hardpoint, 1 mid slot.
- Drone Control Module: 10% bonus to combat utility drone effectiveness, 5% drone hitpoint bonus - 1 mid slot, 50m3 drone bay, 25Mbit bandwith.
- Advanced Weapon Control: 5% boost to energy turrets' tracikg, 2% reduction of target's speed dependence to missiles - 2 mid slots.
- Supplemental Coolant Injector: reduces the heat damage - 1 mid and 1 low slot.

Propulsion:
- Chassis Optimization: 5% bonus to max velocity - 1 low slot.
- Fuel Catalyst: 10% bonus to afterburner speed - 1 mid slot, 1 low slot.
- Wake Limiter: 5% reduction in MWD signature radius penalty - 1 mid slot.
- Interdiction Nullifier: Immunity to non-targeted interdiction, 5% increased agility - 1 low slot.


Loki

Offensive:
- Projectile Scoping Array: 7.5% bonus to projectile turret rate of fire, 10% bonus to projectile turret falloff - 3 high slots, 3 turret hardpoints, 2 low slots.
- Rapid Reloader: 5% missile damage bonus, 5% rapid light missile launcher capacity bonus, 10% reduction to rapid light misile launcher reload speed, 3 high slots, 3 launcher hardpoints, 2 low slots.
- Remote Shield Stabilizers: 10% bonus to shield transporter effectiveness per level - 3 high slots, 2 turret and launcher hardpoints, 1 mid slot, 1 low slot.
- Warfare Processor: bonus to warfare link effectiveness - 3 high slots, 2 turret and launcher hardpoints, 1 low slot.

Defensive:
- Supplemental Screening: 7.5% shield hitpoint bonus - 2 mid slots.
- Amplification Node: 01% shield booster amount bonus - 2 mid slots.
- Armament Extension: 2.5% bonus to projectile turret and missile damage, 2.5% bonus to drone damage and HP - 2 high slots, 2 hardpoints for turrets and launchers, 1 low slot, 25m3 drone bay, 25Mbit bandwith.
- Inertia Core Upgrade: 2% agility bonus - 1 high slot, 1 turret and launcher hardpoint, 1 mid slot, 1 low slot.

Electronics:
- Emergent Locus Analyzer: probe system, gives the same bonuses as it does now - 1 high slot, 1 mid slot.
- Dissolution Sequencer: 15% bonus to ship sensor strength 5% bonus to max targeting range - 2 mid slots, 1 low slot.
- Immobility Drivers: 30% bonus to stasis webifier range - 1 mid slot.
- Target Marker: 10% bonus to target painter effectiveness - 2 mid slots.

Engineering:
- Covert Reconfiguration: gives access to the cov-ops cloak, reduces the signature radius - 1 high slot, 1 turret and missile hardpoint, 1 mid slot.
- Drone Control Module: 10% bonus to logistic drone effectiveness, 5% drone hitpoint bonus - 1 mid slot, 50m3 drone bay, 25Mbit bandwith.
- Advanced Weapon Control: 5% bonus to projectile turret acuracy, 5% bonus to missile speed - 2 mid slots.
- Supplemental Coolant Injector: reduces the heat damage - 1 mid and 1 low slot.

Propulsion:
- Chassis Optimization: 5% bonus to max velocity - 1 low slot.
- Fuel Catalyst: 10% bonus to afterburner speed - 1 mid slot, 1 low slot.
- Intercalated Nanofibers: 5% increased agility - 1 low slot.
- Interdiction Nullifier: Immunity to non-targeted interdiction, 5% increased agility - 1 low slot.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-10-28 00:51:48 UTC
Proteus

Offensive:
- Dissonic Encoding Platform: 10% bonus to hybrid turret damage, 7.5% to hybrid turret tracking - 3 high slots, 3 turret hardpoints, 2 low slots.
- Drone Synthesis Projector: 10% bonus to drone damage, 7.5% bonus to drone hitpoints - 3 high slots, 2 turret hardpoints, 2 low slots, 125m3 drone bay, 75Mbit bandwith.
- Remote Nano-Assembler Overdrive: 10% bonus to remote armor repairer effectiveness - 3 high slots, 2 turret hardpoints, 2 low slots.
- Warfare Processor: bonus to warfare link effectiveness - 3 high slots, 2 turret hardpoints, 1 low slot.

Defensive:
- Augmented Plating: 7.5% armor hitpoint bonus - 2 low slots.
- Nanobot Injector: 10% bonus to armor repairer effectiveness - 2 low slots.
- Armament Extension: 2.5% bonus to hybrid turret damage, 2.5% bonus to drone damage and HP - 2 high slots, 2 turret hardpoints, 1 low slot, 50m3 drone bay, 25Mbit bandwith.
- Inertia Core Upgrade: 2% agility bonus - 1 high slot, 1 turret hardpoint, 2 low slots.

Electronics:
- Emergent Locus Analyzer: probe system, gives the same bonuses as it does now. 1 high slot, 1 mid slot.
- Dissolution Sequencer: 15% bonus to ship sensor strength 5% bonus to max targeting range, 2 mid slots, 1 low slot.
- Linked Tracking Network: 5% bonus to remote tracking computer range and effectiveness - 1 mid slot.
- Sensor Blider: 10% bonus to sensor dampener effectiveness - 2 mid slots.

Engineering:
- Covert Reconfiguration: gives access to the cov-ops cloak, reduces the signature radius, 1 high slot, 1 turret hardpoint, 1 mid slot.
- Friction Extension Processor: 10% bonus to warp disruptor and warp scrambler range - 1 mid slot.
- Advanced Weapon Control: 5% bonus to hybrid turret rate of fire, 2.5% bonus to drone speed and tracking - 2 mid slots.
- Supplemental Coolant Injector: reduces the heat damage - 1 mid and 1 low slot.

Propulsion:
- Gravitational Capacitor: 15% bonus to warp speed per level 15% reduction in capacitor need when initiating warp - 1 low slot.
- Localized Injectors: 10% reduction in afterburner and MWD capacitor consumption - 1 mid slot, 1 low slot.
- Wake Limiter: 5% reduction in MWD signature radius penalty - 1 mid slot.
- Interdiction Nullifier: Immunity to non-targeted interdiction, 5% increased agility - 1 low slot.


Tengu

Offensive:
- Magnetic Infusion Basin: 5% bonus to hybrid turret damage, 20% bonus to hybrid turret optimal range - 3 high slots, 3 turret hardpoints, 2 low lots.
- Accelerated Ejection Bay: 7.5% heavy missile damage bonus, 10% missile velocity bonus, 5% missile launcher rate of fire bonus - 3 high slots, 3 launcher hardpoints, 2 low slots.
- Remote Shield Stabilizers: 10% bonus to shield transporter effectiveness - 3 high slots, 2 turret and launcher hardpoints, 1 mid slot, 1 low slot.
- Warfare Processor: bonus to warfare link effectiveness - 3 high slots, 2 turret and launcher hardpoints, 1 low slot.

Defensive:
- Supplemental Screening: 7.5% shield hitpoint bonus - 2 mid slots.
- Adaptive Shielding: 4% bonus to all shield resistances - 2 mid slots.
- Armament Extension: 2.5% bonus to hybrid turret and missile damage, 2.5% bonus to drone damage and HP - 2 high slots, 2 hardpoints for turrets and launchers, 1 low slot, 25m3 drone bay, 25Mbit bandwith.
- Inertia Core Upgrade: 2% agility bonus - 1 high slot, 1 turret and launcher hardpoint, 1 mid slot, 1 low slot.

Electronics:
- Emergent Locus Analyzer: probe system, gives the same bonuses as it does now - 1 high slot, 1 mid slot.
- Dissolution Sequencer: 15% bonus to ship sensor strength 5% bonus to max targeting range - 2 mid slots, 1 low slot.
- Tactical Targeting Network: 5% bonus to remote sensor booster range and effectiveness - 1 mid slot.
- Obfuscation Manifold: 10% bonus to ECM effectiveness - 2 mid slots.

Engineering:
- Covert Reconfiguration: gives access to the cov-ops cloak, reduces the signature radius - 1 high slot, 1 turret and missile hardpoint, 1 mid slot.
- Drone Control Module: 10% bonus to EWAR drone effectiveness, 5% drone hitpoint bonus - 1 mid slot, 50m3 drone bay, 25Mbit bandwith.
- Advanced Weapon Control: 5% bonus to hybrid weapon rate of fire, 5% bonus to missile flight time - 2 mid slots.
- Supplemental Coolant Injector: reduces the heat damage - 1 mid and 1 low slot.

Propulsion:
- Fuel Catalyst: 10% bonus to afterburner speed - 1 mid slot, 1 low slot.
- Gravitational Capacitor: 15% bonus to warp speed per level 15% reduction in capacitor need when initiating warp - 1 low slot.
- Intercalated Nanofibers: 5% increased agility - 1 low slot.
- Interdiction Nullifier: Immunity to non-targeted interdiction, 5% increased agility - 1 low slot.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#4 - 2016-10-28 03:01:11 UTC
Can you put all the subsystem changes into a Google Sheet so that it's easier to look at?

Also, please include before+after.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2016-10-28 06:15:54 UTC
Why do you want the armour loki deleted?
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-10-28 10:04:37 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Why do you want the armour loki deleted?

This is how I could balance it. 4 ships, 4 different methods, 2-2 for armor and shield. The other three ships only have bonus to one, I thought it's more fair if we don't allow Loki to have access to both.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#7 - 2016-10-28 10:32:59 UTC
T3 cruisers essentially have 4 roles: combat, EW, booster and explorer. Should 1 ship be dominant in each role or should they be roughly equal depending on the subsystems chosen? I would like to see more differentiation.

I'm not going to critique the stats - CCP Fozzie, Rise and Larrikin are much better at that than I'll ever be but I want to see 4 unique ships. Not 1 ship with 4 names.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#8 - 2016-10-28 11:12:10 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why do you want the armour loki deleted?

This is how I could balance it. 4 ships, 4 different methods, 2-2 for armor and shield. The other three ships only have bonus to one, I thought it's more fair if we don't allow Loki to have access to both.

With how the variable slot layout and variable stats are with T3 cruisers it is actually 4096 ships not 4 ships.
Which is why I have suggested that they get a base hull stat and slot layout and let the sub systems grant bonuses and minor stat and slot changes.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2016-10-28 14:52:38 UTC
Do Little wrote:
T3 cruisers essentially have 4 roles: combat, EW, booster and explorer. Should 1 ship be dominant in each role or should they be roughly equal depending on the subsystems chosen? I would like to see more differentiation.

I'm not going to critique the stats - CCP Fozzie, Rise and Larrikin are much better at that than I'll ever be but I want to see 4 unique ships. Not 1 ship with 4 names.

I think the most important feature of these ships should be their flexibility: they are able to completely change their roles, even during fleet combat if there is a mobile depot or super carrier around.
I think their abilities should be equal based on subsystems, yet different based on the faction they belong to.
Also, I tried to make their abilities represent their faction's style, as much as possible: the Tengu for example gets the most range, both for turrets and missiles, while also having the most bonuses for every kinds of EWAR, all of these with a passive, resistance-based shield tank. I think this sums up the Caldari faction quite well.
Also, having a dev's opinion about this rework would be awesome.

Omnathious Deninard wrote:
With how the variable slot layout and variable stats are with T3 cruisers it is actually 4096 ships not 4 ships.
Which is why I have suggested that they get a base hull stat and slot layout and let the sub systems grant bonuses and minor stat and slot changes.

I think the main problem with these ships are the too many combinations. As cool as the concept is, it's almost impossible to balance them all perfectly.
Your idea about the minor stat and slot changes could also work. Personally I was focusing on the grouping of the different subsystems and making them more unique (please ignore the copy-paste work at this sentence).

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#10 - 2016-10-28 15:19:03 UTC
Do Little wrote:
T3 cruisers essentially have 4 roles: combat, EW, booster and explorer. Should 1 ship be dominant in each role or should they be roughly equal depending on the subsystems chosen? I would like to see more differentiation.

I'm not going to critique the stats - CCP Fozzie, Rise and Larrikin are much better at that than I'll ever be but I want to see 4 unique ships. Not 1 ship with 4 names.


To go along with DL's stance, keep in mind that the T3 's actual role is to be able to change roles...essentially 4 ships in one (but only one at a time).

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#11 - 2016-10-28 15:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Uriam Khanid
Big smile Are you trying to buff T3C?Big smile

for example - Legion:

Offensive:
- Liquid Crystal Magnifiers: 10% bonus to medium energy weapon damage, optimal range and capacitor use reduction - 3 high slots, 3 turret hardpoints, 2 low slots.

Defensive:
- Armament Extension: 5% bonus to energy turret and missile damage, 2.5% bonus to drone damage and HP - 2 high slots, 2 hardpoints for turrets and launchers, 1 low slot, 50m3 drone bay, 50Mbit bandwith.

Electronics:
- Dissolution Sequencer: 15% bonus to ship sensor strength 5% bonus to max targeting range - 2 mid slots, 1 low slot.

Engineering:
- Drone Control Module: 10% bonus to combat utility drone effectiveness, 5% drone hitpoint bonus - 1 mid slot, 50m3 drone bay, 25Mbit bandwith.

Propulsion:
- Fuel Catalyst: 10% bonus to afterburner speed - 1 mid slot, 1 low slot.

Summary:
5/4/5 - slots H/M/L, 5 turrets/launchers with 75% bonus to damage; full flight medium dornes (75/100 bay) with 62,5 bonus to damage and HP


Make T3C great again!!!
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-10-28 16:45:56 UTC
Uriam Khanid wrote:
Big smile Are you trying to buff T3C?Big smile

for example - Legion:

Offensive:
- Liquid Crystal Magnifiers: 10% bonus to medium energy weapon damage, optimal range and capacitor use reduction - 3 high slots, 3 turret hardpoints, 2 low slots.

Defensive:
- Armament Extension: 5% bonus to energy turret and missile damage, 2.5% bonus to drone damage and HP - 2 high slots, 2 hardpoints for turrets and launchers, 1 low slot, 50m3 drone bay, 50Mbit bandwith.

Electronics:
- Dissolution Sequencer: 15% bonus to ship sensor strength 5% bonus to max targeting range - 2 mid slots, 1 low slot.

Engineering:
- Drone Control Module: 10% bonus to combat utility drone effectiveness, 5% drone hitpoint bonus - 1 mid slot, 50m3 drone bay, 25Mbit bandwith.

Propulsion:
- Fuel Catalyst: 10% bonus to afterburner speed - 1 mid slot, 1 low slot.

Summary:
5/4/5 - slots H/M/L, 5 turrets/launchers with 75% bonus to damage; full flight medium dornes (75/100 bay) with 62,5 bonus to damage and HP


Make T3C great again!!!

I think the damage stacks as *1.5 from the Liquid Crystal Magnifiers and *1,25 from the Armament Extension which makes... 87.5%?
Also, don't forget that at this point you are basically a glass cannon with the lowest amount of base defense with no bonuses, you either put on armor plates/membranes/reps or heat sinks. If you get tackled by a few frigates, a missile-sniper Tengu will tear you apart in a minute.
Also, the combat drones only get 12,5% damage bonus (the "combat utility" drones are neuters and web drones) and about 40% HP.

I said these could be broken for different reasons, we won't know until we actually can try them.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.