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Brainstorming on some t1 cruiser love
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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#1 - 2016-10-23 14:04:14 UTC
Some t1 cruisers could need a little love and some a little more. I will start with the Arbitrator as a basic recon cruiser.

Arbitrator:

+ 30km targeting range, since range disruption only makes sense if you have range
+ 75-100 powergrid

Moa:

+ 10% optimal range per level
- 5% damage per level (what the Moa has now)

Feel free to add your ideas for t1 destroyers too.

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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#2 - 2016-10-23 15:23:24 UTC
It's not so much that T1 cruisers need buffs, so much that the rest of the game needs to not be so hilariously overpowered as to outclass 90% of the existing ships.


In the period after Retribution, T1 cruisers were looking pretty good!

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#3 - 2016-10-23 16:28:20 UTC
Oh yes and most of them still do.

Most of the t2 classes are fine too that's why I left them out. Only thing is, they are unaffordable at the moment.

The best course of action would be to increase the moon-poo requirements by 500 and only x55555555555555555 the price, that way everyone will want one.

Or as I only said 44 times now, remove t3 from k-space and give the svipul the mass of Aldebaran II and the signature of that quasar they found.

But back to t1 cruisers and destroyers. I don't fly them but Amarisen said, they need love.

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Cade Windstalker
#4 - 2016-10-23 18:03:12 UTC
You do realize you're literally suggesting reverting the Moa to how it used to be about 4-5 years ago, right?

I mean, I'm personally not opposed, but I don't think it's going to happen and it doesn't really feel needed. If you're having issues with the targeting range on the Arbitrator then fit a Sebo or train skills?

Also seriously, what Vic said, the issue at this point isn't the balance of T1 Cruisers or even these specific hulls, it's that T3Ds and T3Cs are overly dominant. Balance passes are coming, lets be patient and see what they do.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#5 - 2016-10-23 18:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: elitatwo
Cade Windstalker wrote:
...then fit a Sebo or train skills?..


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you are funny Big smileBig smileBig smile

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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#6 - 2016-10-23 22:32:51 UTC
- What are you planning to do with the arbie that needs more grid? Mine have 1600mm plates and rapid launchers :S

- Much prefer the moa with 5% damage bonus. It's much more flexible like that. If you look back to when it was changed you'd see a lot of people were glad of the change.

My own suggestions:

- Give rupture and stabber (and rifter) an extra turret. Their dps are so bad that even an extra turret doesn't put them at the same level as their competitors and utility highs (especially two on the stabber) are not what they used to be now we have asb's and a strong drone meta.

- Thorax could use some extra grid. Fitting that thing is hard!

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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2016-10-23 22:54:41 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
- Thorax could use some extra grid. Fitting that thing is hard!

I distinctly recall that being the point.

According to a DEV (Fozzy I think?) the Thorax would be too powerful if it could fit a stiff tank, a MWD, and medium Neutron Blasters.

Mind you, I would CERTAINLY not complain if the Thorax got more PG. I love that thing almost as much as I love my Myrmidon and Worm... but being able to put out 500+ DPS with Electron Blasters and a mediocre tank strikes me as a bit... strong.

How did you Veterans start?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#8 - 2016-10-24 00:33:37 UTC
I see nothing wrong with 90% of the T1 Cruisers in this game - in their own right. Almost all of them work very well, considering they are T1 Cruisers.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#9 - 2016-10-24 00:34:25 UTC
Shah, it's 600-ish dps with dual-reps and electrons but I think Daichi meant to fit railguns on.

And yes Cade, I do want the old range bonus back. It's not super important it would just fit the progression to the Eagle better.

Was just collecting ideas. The changes don't have to be as big as in Retribution, just some small things. If you have more or other idea, post them.

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#10 - 2016-10-24 00:40:55 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
I see nothing wrong with 90% of the T1 Cruisers in this game - in their own right. Almost all of them work very well, considering they are T1 Cruisers.


I don't either. I like most of them as they are. May I ask for the 10% you think need a little something? I would like to collect ideas.

Obviously I can't speak for minmatar ships, so someone else may want to.

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Cade Windstalker
#11 - 2016-10-24 11:04:59 UTC
I personally think T1 Cruisers are in a pretty okay place right now, I don't think some people feeling like things need to change means that they absolutely do. "I think things are fine as-is" is always a valid answer when asked for an alternative idea.
Cat Laartii
Doomheim
#12 - 2016-10-24 14:20:57 UTC
This extends to another one of my ideas, but i would like to share my ideas with expanding and balancing the cruiser class in respect to your post.

-Modify the Blackbird and Celestis to gain combat bonuses, with baking their respective range bonuses into the modules themselves. The blackbird would lose its turret slots, but gain an extra launcher and a 5% kinetic damage bonus, with the addition of 15 extra drone space and bandwidth. The Celestis would swap its range bonus out for a 7.5% bonus to drone HP and ewar drone disruption strength per level. It gains a 75m3 drone bay with 50m of bandwidth, but loses a decent-sized chunk of capacitor as a drawback.

-Add t1 exploration cruisers to each race. These come with a +5 bonus to relic and data analyzer strength role bonus, and a respective tanking bonus for each next to the probe strength bonus per level. They each will have 7 high slots, with 6 turret and missile hardpoints. This leaves 7 slots to allocate between the mids and lows, and each cruiser will have ample drone space, albeit with no bonuses to them.

-Have the Maller drop a high slot and turret hardpoint , but upgrade the damage bonus from 5% to 10% per level. It gains an extra mid slot, but loses its drones.

-The Rupture gets its bonuses changed to 10% damage per level and 7.5% tracking speed per level.

-The Moa moves a low to a high, gains a turret hardpoint but loses its damage bonus in exchange to a 10% bonus to optimal range per level.

-The Vexor loses its hybrid turret damage bonus in exchange for a 7.5% bonus to drone mwd speed and tracking.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#13 - 2016-10-25 22:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
elitatwo wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
I see nothing wrong with 90% of the T1 Cruisers in this game - in their own right. Almost all of them work very well, considering they are T1 Cruisers.


I don't either. I like most of them as they are. May I ask for the 10% you think need a little something? I would like to collect ideas.

Obviously I can't speak for minmatar ships, so someone else may want to.


Well, I don't usually fly T1 Cruisers, but I do fly against a lot of them. And, among other things, we held a T1 Cruiser tournament to celebrate our corporation's 10th anniversary, and I was in charge of fitting all the ships. Our constraints were only T1 and meta modules. None of the T1 Cruisers was a clear winner for superiority in a Thunderdome melee. None of the combinations were clearly superior in our 3-man teams melee either.

Most of the T1 Cruisers can be flown competently as a T1 version of their T2 counterparts. For example, a Vexor is just a T1 Ishtar. A Caracal is just a T1 Cerberus. A Rupture is just a T1 Muninn. The T1 Logistics ships work well, as T1 Logistics ships. The Celestis and Blackbird work well as T1 electronic warfare ships. And so on and so forth. This may be an ass backwards way to look at it, but that's how I think of them. Nearly all the T1 Cruisers can fill a role competently. The ones where that doesn't work at all is the Arbitrator and the Stabber. The Bellicose is a fringe case, because it can sort of be a baby Scythe Fleet Issue.

I do think the Arbitrator needs a bit more fitting room and a better slot layout. Part of the issue is that it is just so inferior to its T2 counterparts - the Curse is well-nigh God status good. The Arbitrator cannot be flown like a Curse at all. It just cannot do it. It's not a T1 Curse, it's not even close.

I'm also not super impressed with the Stabber. It just doesn't work well enough to be worth flying. It cannot really be flown like a T1 Vagabond. It cannot brawl. It cannot really kite. It can only die horribly.

Those are the two that just jump out at me and scream, "I need some help!"

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Sitting Bull Lakota
Poppins and Company
#14 - 2016-10-26 01:42:48 UTC
I'd give the stabber more speed/agility.
I hesitate to do much to the arbitrator. It's kind of notorious for being horribly underestimated. It's like the hull's role bonus.

All that really needs to happen is the Mordus Legion line, Guristas line, and t3ds get a Jason Vorhees level hacking with the balance machete.

Carriers got beaten like a step-headed red child by CCP in 118.6, and they're basically fine now.

Come on, CCP, you gonna do it or you just gonna talk about it?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#15 - 2016-10-26 05:35:02 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
...shortened for reading...
I do think the Arbitrator needs a bit more fitting room and a better slot layout. Part of the issue is that it is just so inferior to its T2 counterparts - the Curse is well-nigh God status good. The Arbitrator cannot be flown like a Curse at all. It just cannot do it. It's not a T1 Curse, it's not even close.

I'm also not super impressed with the Stabber. It just doesn't work well enough to be worth flying. It cannot really be flown like a T1 Vagabond. It cannot brawl. It cannot really kite. It can only die horribly.

Those are the two that just jump out at me and scream, "I need some help!"


That's what I mean with the Arbitrator. Just last week I thought, I give the Arbitrator a try and I haven't flown her before.

What I tried was to fit her like a Curse "light" or at least like a Pilgrim because of the slot layout. Well. that turned out terrible.

I have an armor one now but you can only fit small neuts with the 1600mm plate. With medium neuts, the fit is so gimped that you don't want to undock.

And about the range, the Blackbird and the Celestis both have good base targetting range for a "light recon".

With 68.75km the Arbitrator is a little short on base targeting range. I think 95-98-ish km with all V skills should not make that ship overpowered.

And everyone, please keep going. I am just collecting some ideas here. Judging can be done at a later date.

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FT Cold
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-10-28 20:40:20 UTC
Aug, osprey, blackbird, caracal, moa, exeq, celestis, thorax, vexor, scythe are all fine. Only thing I can say about this group would be that I'd rather see the t1 ewar cruisers have bonuses that more closely reflect their recon brethren. Maybe the celestis should lose the range bonus to damps and get a 10% per level bonus to disruptor and scram range.

The omen, maller and rupture are kind of borderline. I'd like the amarr laser cap bonus to go away completely, and I think the omen would be fun with a range bonus. The maller is always going to be crap, but maybe if it had a slightly bigger drone bay it'd be passable. Rupture really needs another turret.

Down in the dumpster tier is the arbitrator, bellicose and stabber. I think if the arbitrator lost it's drone bonus, got a 10% optimal and 5% falloff bonus to neuts and nosferatus, and went to a 5L 5M 3H it might actually be pretty useful. Similarly, the bellicose would be a lot of fun with a gimped 30% web range bonus instead of a missile bonus. I don't know where to begin with the stabber, another auto cannon rebalance probably needs to happen before this ship can be helped.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#17 - 2016-10-29 02:18:25 UTC
FT Cold wrote:
Aug, osprey, blackbird, caracal, moa, exeq, celestis, thorax, vexor, scythe are all fine. Only thing I can say about this group would be that I'd rather see the t1 ewar cruisers have bonuses that more closely reflect their recon brethren. Maybe the celestis should lose the range bonus to damps and get a 10% per level bonus to disruptor and scram range.

The omen, maller and rupture are kind of borderline. I'd like the amarr laser cap bonus to go away completely, and I think the omen would be fun with a range bonus. The maller is always going to be crap, but maybe if it had a slightly bigger drone bay it'd be passable. Rupture really needs another turret.

Down in the dumpster tier is the arbitrator, bellicose and stabber. I think if the arbitrator lost it's drone bonus, got a 10% optimal and 5% falloff bonus to neuts and nosferatus, and went to a 5L 5M 3H it might actually be pretty useful. Similarly, the bellicose would be a lot of fun with a gimped 30% web range bonus instead of a missile bonus. I don't know where to begin with the stabber, another auto cannon rebalance probably needs to happen before this ship can be helped.



honestly, bellicose is in better shape than stabber, at least at projecting damage. Fit RLML's on it, a target painter and maybe a rigor rig, and you will apply full to 90% of the ships out there. And it will be projecting 350dps (until reload anyway). Whereas the stabber can barely project 180dps at 20km.

[Bellicose, Ballercose]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Large Shield Extender II
Large F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Target Painter II

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Acolyte II x5


As far as stabber goes, i give up on trying to kite with a/c's, it kind of works as a brawler, but mainly only against frigs/t3d's with something like this:

[Stabber, YOLOBrawl]
Gyrostabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Gyrostabilizer II

Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II

Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I

Acolyte II x5

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
FT Cold
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2016-10-29 10:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Cold
Yeah I agree that the bellicose is better off than the stabber right now. I used to use the stabber on and off after the t1 cruisers got rebalanced and I recall trying a similar fit. The only good things I can really say about it is that it looks engageable and it's fast for a t1 cruiser.