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Testing of Fitting Simulation

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MechaLynx
#101 - 2016-10-20 01:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: MechaLynx
Could just highlight the modules listing with a yellow border to indicate a possible hotspot for dropping the module you want to drag off the ship to unfit it

a tiny trashcan that highlights when you drag a module would also work :P but i'd expect that to be undesirable to the design team
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#102 - 2016-10-20 13:28:42 UTC
Salpun wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
Fzhal wrote:
By source location do you mean the fitting window? If so, could it be made to unequip the module if dragged/dropped into the round ship fitting area or completely out of the fitting window?

Sorry, I meant the 'destination' location (and have edited my post)... so the if you drop something in the inventory, stuff happens because it's moved to that new location, adding to the new location triggers it. In order to allow you to unequip something by dragging it somewhere, that 'somewhere' needs to have code that knows how to handle the fake item. Hope that makes some sense, it's maybe a little more details than you care aboutSmile
People are already used to dropping items in the center to fit them so unfitting like that would be confusing.


That makes sense but the location that allows removal is hidden which is an issue.

Is drag over and switch even an option with this current version of the fitting window?

It would be nice, that when you drag a different icon over the module a location inside the circle would show up and allow you to drop it in and then allow switching the active one back and forth so you can both see the two items you want to compare and also switch them out in the simulated fit.
Swapping modules out like that works for the T3 subsystems, but it´s a real pain to deal with so for now we are just keeping it for the T3 modules.
Sure, it could be done, but we also need to keep in mind that the fitting simulation has the luxury to be dealing with fake items and can just remove fake items and create new ones somewhere else if needed. That is not the case with the fitting window in normal mode, it needs to have things removed and added properly. You probably know and love the "there's already something in that location" message you get when trying to do that, and there's not really a good way around it.
If we'd allow swapping it the fitting simulation, the expectation would be that it also worked in the normal mode, which is pretty tricky.

MechaLynx wrote:
Could just highlight the modules listing with a yellow border to indicate a possible hotspot for dropping the module you want to drag off the ship to unfit it

a tiny trashcan that highlights when you drag a module would also work :P but i'd expect that to be undesirable to the design team
Yeah, that's perhaps something we can look into. The problem with a trash can or anything like that is that we just have very limited space to work with in this window Ugh

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#103 - 2016-10-20 17:33:09 UTC
Looks promising!
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#104 - 2016-10-20 23:45:04 UTC
i am wondering, since you already have the option to use a radial menu, why did you decide to cycle via left click through the module modes offline, online active, heat etc instead of using the radial menu for that too?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#105 - 2016-10-21 01:03:31 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP karkur
Bienator II wrote:
i am wondering, since you already have the option to use a radial menu, why did you decide to cycle via left click through the module modes offline, online active, heat etc instead of using the radial menu for that too?
It just seems a bit more natural to click on a module to turn it on than having to use radial menu. We also added the radial menu way later, when we had pretty much settled on the clicking to change the modules state.
Sounds a bit silly to say since I implemented it, but I'm a big fan of the radial menu and always use it when playing.
There is however a bit of a conflict with dragging. If something with a radial menu is draggable and you click on it and start to drag, do you want the radial menu or just to drag the thing? We have a way to guess the best we can what you were trying to do, but you can run into issues with this with drones and also in the fleet watchlist and it's pretty annoying when you want to drag things and get the radial menu. It's one of the reasons we haven't made a serious push to add radial menu to the inventory, where you do a lot of dragging of items. So that's a factor here too, you'll be dragging stuff around and that might become annoying.
Hope that makes sense Smile
Btw, we just added the ability to go in the other direction. If you hold down SHIFT it toggles offline->overheated->active->online.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
SLYCE Pirates
#106 - 2016-10-21 01:36:08 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
i am wondering, since you already have the option to use a radial menu, why did you decide to cycle via left click through the module modes offline, online active, heat etc instead of using the radial menu for that too?
It just seems a bit more natural to click on a module to turn it on than having to use radial menu. We also added the radial menu way later, when we had pretty much settled on the clicking to change the modules state.
Sounds a bit silly to say since I implemented it, but I'm a big fan of the radial menu and always use it when playing.
There is however a bit of a conflict with dragging. If something with a radial menu is draggable and you click on it and start to drag, do you want the radial menu or just to drag the thing? We have a way to guess the best we can what you were trying to do, but you can run into issues with this with drones and also in the fleet watchlist and it's pretty annoying when you want to drag things and get the radial menu. It's one of the reasons we haven't made a serious push to add radial menu to the inventory, where you do a lot of dragging of items. So that's a factor here too, you'll be dragging stuff around and that might become annoying.
Hope that makes sense Smile
Btw, we just added the ability to go in the other direction. If you hold down SHIFT it toggles offline->overheated->active->online.

Nice now we just need a button that takes offline out of the rotation.
To bad we cant get two windows up and use that to compare multiple module changes.

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See you around the universe.

Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2016-10-21 04:07:28 UTC
Another bug:

If you change the UI scaling with the character sheet open the times next to your skills in the skills area wrap incorrectly. Changing the UI scaling doesn't fix it, but changing skill categories does.
GoldSnake
Oblivion Watch
HYDRA RELOADED
#108 - 2016-10-21 06:30:53 UTC
I enjoy the idea of coming up with silly cockroach fits and dreaming of flying one. My personal favorite being this.
MechaLynx
#109 - 2016-10-22 01:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: MechaLynx
Salpun wrote:

Nice now we just need a button that takes offline out of the rotation.
To bad we cant get two windows up and use that to compare multiple module changes.


I don't think that's necessary. Can have key combinations (if they're not already used) of shift+click to turn a module to overheat, ctrl+click to cycle between active and online and alt+click for offline.

CCP karkur wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
i am wondering, since you already have the option to use a radial menu, why did you decide to cycle via left click through the module modes offline, online active, heat etc instead of using the radial menu for that too?
It just seems a bit more natural to click on a module to turn it on than having to use radial menu.


Agreed, I think a radial menu on each module would be a horrible mess. However (not that I think it should be done but) you _could_ theoretically, on hover, have icons appear on the outside radius of the fitting area (what i mean is, on a circle concentric to the modules but with a larger radius, farther out) which stay there if you hover directly from the module to them (much like the "Add to queue" button on the skill tooltips now, although the hover threshold there was weird). It _wouldn't_ be snappy to use and I really don't think this is an issue at all. At _most_ have hotkeys - the current functionality I think is sufficiently practical, considering how the UI works overall.

Wanted to also say thanks for fixing the ship traits for the simulation (used to not count, now they do :P) and huge props for the inclusion of probe strength and scan time on hover of launchers (I think it was you - if not, mad props to whoever's responsible!). I know it's already on TQ but I only recently noticed.
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Cauldron of Ecstasy
#110 - 2016-10-22 03:31:08 UTC
I've been reading the post - CCP karkur, question! Wouldn't an inventory overhual at somepoint help with some of the issues we incounter and allow for a more. . . universal . . . (not the right word) flow of actions.

One of the best features (not trying to devert from the main subject of the Ghost Fitting window) is to change hangers to act more like computer folders. I wouldn't mind seeing a system built on top of it that creats something like the structure access list.
Maybe have to limit the number of possible sub-folders/containers.

But, I have to say, the new ghost fitting winow will be nice once it is finished and goes through about 900 reviews and patches.
Have you all ever thought of redoing the whole window to free up space? It seems to be a trend in the last few years to just keep making every window bigger and bigger and bigger with most of the new stuff being fluff to make it look pretty.

Would sort of be nice to have an universile window style for Characters, Market, Fitting, etc.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#111 - 2016-10-22 06:38:19 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
i am wondering, since you already have the option to use a radial menu, why did you decide to cycle via left click through the module modes offline, online active, heat etc instead of using the radial menu for that too?
It just seems a bit more natural to click on a module to turn it on than having to use radial menu. We also added the radial menu way later, when we had pretty much settled on the clicking to change the modules state.


i mean having it onlining/offlining on left click is intuitive and also nice for backwards compatibility with the old fitting window, however the cycling through the other states attached to left click feels inconsistent in context of already having the radial menu feature for the rack. Plus it does not communicate to a new player what is actually happening, if a player clicks an overheat icon of the radial he can derive from it what he/she just did, clicking three times on an icon to make it change color however does not tell anything.

If you want to overheat the whole rack you can use the radial on the rack icon, but if you want to test only a single item you have to cycle through states instead of using the radial on the item icon?


CCP karkur wrote:

There is however a bit of a conflict with dragging. If something with a radial menu is draggable and you click on it and start to drag, do you want the radial menu or just to drag the thing?a

yeah but that problem exists in other places too, for example in the target list, do you want to sort your targets or open the radial? A good default setting for the radial menu delay would mitigate that, but what usually works best for radial menus is to avoid using them on the primary mouse button. Eve has it on the left button so it is kinda stuck with the decision now.



the old fitting window has also another cool menu which popped up on mouse-over. Maybe that would be the solution if updated to the same quality of the radial menu? (larger icons with no space between the segments, like an unrolled radial menu)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Chris Roberts
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
#112 - 2016-10-22 16:17:49 UTC
Would it be possible to add into the ghost fitting information popups, or into the attributes tab.

A guide to how effective modules are under there current stacking penalties?
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#113 - 2016-10-22 17:37:59 UTC
Buy-all obviously should be in the right-click menu of a fit.

That's just... Eve UI 101 stuff.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#114 - 2016-10-22 21:01:25 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
… Right, but you can drag it into the browser on the left hand side. The reason it's not moved when you drop it in a hangar is that you are not really moving stuff there, so it wouldn't make much sense. Also, the move is triggered by the destination location and I'd rather not litter all inventory locations with code to handle that when it doesn't really belong there in the first placeP.


One option I've seen used in other places is to change the destination area when a drag is occurring. So for example the module browser in the fitting window could darken, with overlay text "drag module here to remove from ghost fitting" or change the content from the module browser to a trash can outline, or some such.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2016-10-23 17:27:49 UTC
Are there any plans for:

- damage profiles ?

Reason: we fit ships against something. Even new / less experience players wanting to get sensible fit - simulation as currently implemented won't really help them and they will be quickly pointed to 3rd party tools.

Think how completely different a fit (and potentially a t2+ ship choice) would be when going against Sansha and against Angels.

I know there's the aim of being "more basic, less overwhelming", but this is IMHO essential.

- what about simulating boosters and implants ?

They can bring quite devastating differences (think astero that can align <1s, impel with 1m ehp, etc.). And it's good to have when trying to compare apples to apples while discussing fits in game. Otherwise we're back to alt-tabbing to pyfa/etc.



Form other stuff I noticed, EHP calculation seems a bit off when compared to Pyfa/EFT/calc.exe. Are there any roundings involved at some point, or shortcuts taken ?

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

JonnyPew
Doomheim
#116 - 2016-10-24 16:27:13 UTC
Quality of life improvement of the year!

EVE Online video content creator

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CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#117 - 2016-10-24 17:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP karkur
Soltys wrote:
Are there any plans for:

- damage profiles ?

Reason: we fit ships against something. Even new / less experience players wanting to get sensible fit - simulation as currently implemented won't really help them and they will be quickly pointed to 3rd party tools.

Think how completely different a fit (and potentially a t2+ ship choice) would be when going against Sansha and against Angels.

I know there's the aim of being "more basic, less overwhelming", but this is IMHO essential.

- what about simulating boosters and implants ?

They can bring quite devastating differences (think astero that can align <1s, impel with 1m ehp, etc.). And it's good to have when trying to compare apples to apples while discussing fits in game. Otherwise we're back to alt-tabbing to pyfa/etc.



Form other stuff I noticed, EHP calculation seems a bit off when compared to Pyfa/EFT/calc.exe. Are there any roundings involved at some point, or shortcuts taken ?
For now we are not adding those things, but that's not saying we can't add them later. For now we'll be sticking to the basics and polish what we have, but the 3rd party tools already do this very well and we fully expect that people will keep using them Smile

Thanks, I'll take a look at the EHP, it wasn't off before but now it seems to be way off Ughthe way off part was because I had a super powerful QA module fitted P but apart from that, I see exactly the same numbers as in Pyfa

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2016-10-24 21:36:10 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:

Thanks, I'll take a look at the EHP, it wasn't off before but now it seems to be way off Ughthe way off part was because I had a super powerful QA module fitted P but apart from that, I see exactly the same numbers as in Pyfa


Well something is off at least with Impel:

https://i1.someimage.com/LE5Uu1F.jpg

The character in question has 0 skills in transport ships, but resistances are still higher than they should be (essentially as if the character had 1 in transport ships).

Might be intended (skills assumed as at least minimum required to fly the ship), but dunno.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#119 - 2016-10-25 13:59:29 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP karkur
Soltys wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:

Thanks, I'll take a look at the EHP, it wasn't off before but now it seems to be way off Ughthe way off part was because I had a super powerful QA module fitted P but apart from that, I see exactly the same numbers as in Pyfa


Well something is off at least with Impel:

https://i1.someimage.com/LE5Uu1F.jpg

The character in question has 0 skills in transport ships, but resistances are still higher than they should be (essentially as if the character had 1 in transport ships).

Might be intended (skills assumed as at least minimum required to fly the ship), but dunno.

Just looked into it and there are reasons for it and it's a correct value. If you found yourself sitting in this ship with level 0, the server would also consider this your resistance. It's really a non issue though, because you'd have to have at least level 1 to be in it, so you'd always have that +4% anyways Smile

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#120 - 2016-10-26 19:57:42 UTC
Played around with it, I like it and I didn't come across bugs in the process.

I'd like a global search bar. Right now it's in context of charges or modules. So you search for a damage control while having charges selected and thus get no result. You have to then select modules and enter your search again. Feels a bit clumsy.

Implants and such would be a superb addition, but if that is out of scope for now I'd like to see a percentage if you are short on grid or CPU. This would at least help to select the correct fitting implants immediately.