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Cargo Pilots Unite!!!!

First post First post
Author
Atticus Fynch
#1 - 2012-01-18 13:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Fynch
Hauling is a bonafide profession and an essential part of EVE. If you as the client want to petition the populace of EVE by way of public contracts to haul your goods then you must pay a fixed % of your required collateral as reward.

I suggest that all PUBLIC courier contracts have an automatic 7.5% fixed reward rate. If you want to add more to your contract...fine, but you can not go below 7.5%

Private contracts can continue to be whatever they want.

This will encourage more Hauling Corps to be created as well.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

Goose99
#2 - 2012-01-18 15:46:02 UTC
+1
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3 - 2012-01-18 16:47:16 UTC
corvus acanum
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-01-18 17:23:08 UTC
I don't haul but I agree with you on this. If someone is going to ask a billion or more isk in collateral to move something and then only offer ten million isk that is stupid. In the real world that would never happen. That kind of mentality is why courier contracts hardly seem to work at all they are just not worth the money. I would like to see something like this happen as well.
Ayieka
#5 - 2012-01-18 18:07:31 UTC
I really would like to see my crane put to better use. +1
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#6 - 2012-01-18 18:14:31 UTC
If someone dont wanna pay the price you want, dont haul it! I agree hauling isnt worthwhile profession because of ppl who put miserable rewards in the contracts, but I dont think forcing a particular fixed price is the correct solution.

Corps such as Red Frog dont need fixed prices to work.
Atticus Fynch
#7 - 2012-01-18 18:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Fynch
Nestara Aldent wrote:
If someone dont wanna pay the price you want, dont haul it! I agree hauling isnt worthwhile profession because of ppl who put miserable rewards in the contracts, but I dont think forcing a particular fixed price is the correct solution.

Corps such as Red Frog dont need fixed prices to work.



You said it yourself, hauling in its present state is not a worthwhile profession. My suggestion will make it one without freelance cargo pilots having to settle for crumbs for their work at ridiculous collateral rates.

It will also cut down on scams aimed at collecting colateral with no intentions (on the part of the contract maker) of having a succesful delivery.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

Monty Kvaran
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#8 - 2012-01-18 19:23:50 UTC
Supply, meet demand....

The correct price for a courier contract is the minimum price necessary to get a courier to promptly service your contract. Good contracts are snatched up, bad contracts remain, resulting in the appearance that no one is paying a reasonable rate on the contracts. Eve is a sandbox, don't try to have CCP exempt your preferred job from the sandbox.
Atticus Fynch
#9 - 2012-01-18 19:27:33 UTC
Monty Kvaran wrote:
Supply, meet demand....

The correct price for a courier contract is the minimum price necessary to get a courier to promptly service your contract. Good contracts are snatched up, bad contracts remain, resulting in the appearance that no one is paying a reasonable rate on the contracts. Eve is a sandbox, don't try to have CCP exempt your preferred job from the sandbox.


Not so. I am always scanning public shipping contracts and for the most part they are sh-t. On rare occasion you will find a gem that pays well. I am asking CCP for balance. The same way they added tax to NPC corps. The balance is a percentage of the required collateral. Sounds fair to me.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

Monty Kvaran
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2012-01-18 19:36:50 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Monty Kvaran wrote:
Supply, meet demand....

The correct price for a courier contract is the minimum price necessary to get a courier to promptly service your contract. Good contracts are snatched up, bad contracts remain, resulting in the appearance that no one is paying a reasonable rate on the contracts. Eve is a sandbox, don't try to have CCP exempt your preferred job from the sandbox.


Not so. I am always scanning public shipping contracts and for the most part they are sh-t. On rare occasion you will find a gem that pays well. I am asking CCP for balance. The same way they added tax to NPC corps. The balance is a percentage of the required collateral. Sounds fair to me.


As a small time courier pilot, I find the problem with contracts is the horrible isk/jump. As a courier pilot, you can greatly influence the risk of loosing the collateral, if there is minimal risk, then the size of the collateral is really immaterial. I'll take your low M^3 cargo to/from lowsec for 1-3% of collateral if the price/jump is worth my time.
Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
#11 - 2012-01-18 19:40:42 UTC
Monty Kvaran wrote:
Supply, meet demand....

The correct price for a courier contract is the minimum price necessary to get a courier to promptly service your contract. Good contracts are snatched up, bad contracts remain, resulting in the appearance that no one is paying a reasonable rate on the contracts. Eve is a sandbox, don't try to have CCP exempt your preferred job from the sandbox.


Competition for haul contracts = PvP without (traditional) weapons.

Having a jumpclone and a freighter in each trade hub is possibly your best weapon in this fight.
Ai Shun
#12 - 2012-01-18 20:03:36 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Not so. I am always scanning public shipping contracts and for the most part they are sh-t. On rare occasion you will find a gem that pays well. I am asking CCP for balance. The same way they added tax to NPC corps. The balance is a percentage of the required collateral. Sounds fair to me.


No, the collateral is the insurance the originator of the contract has that you won't steal his stuff. That is immaterial to the money you should be paid to haul it. That actually comes from the number of jumps, the route you have to take, etc.

As a side thought, PUSH Industries. My Trader has cause to use them from time to time and they charge per jump, depending on cargo volume, low-sec, etc.

Their service is impeccable. The contract was accepted within 5 minutes. I received an EVEMail when it was first handled with an estimated delivery time. And another EVEMail when they delivered it, about 3 minutes ahead of schedule and all done within about half an hour of me creating the contract.

Against that type of service, a lone hauler can do very, very little to compete. I'm considering using PUSH instead of Ai to haul stuff now.
Atticus Fynch
#13 - 2012-01-18 20:19:14 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:


No, the collateral is the insurance the originator of the contract has that you won't steal his stuff. That is immaterial to the money you should be paid to haul it. That actually comes from the number of jumps, the route you have to take, etc.


True, however the same security can be obtained by having the cargo you want shipped in a secure container. I've never tried it, but I believe it's doable, and if not then having unbreakable crates used for hauling should become a standard in EVE hauling. That would eliminate the possibility of theft.

On the flip side of the coin, there are those that use shipping contracts to scam. One of my earliest expereinces was of accepting a contract at 200mil collateral with a 100mil payoff to be delivered into null. I made it to the destination but found the station would not allow me to dock. That was before the shipping contracts feature was revamped to prevent this from happening.

You would think I would have the contents of the cargo to cover my loss....NO!! The cargo turned out to be a small empty container.

Shipping scams still exist in various forms. Some high collateral contracts are designed with the intent that the cargo never make it to its destination...especially in low/null.

Since there is always the possibility that a shipping contract will be delivered, having a fixed reward rate will make the scams a little less profitable for the scammer and hopefully reduce them in the public market.


[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#14 - 2012-01-18 21:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
This won't work as you intend it to. More people will put more of the hauling loads on their alts and/or friend's alts and/or dedicated hauling corps so they can avoid paying the "fixed" tax... pretty much the same way people make "shell corps" to avoid the NPC tax. Savvy people (i.e. the people with the ISK) will ALWAYS find ways around this to avoid paying the tax at all costs. Newbies (i.e. people with limited ISK) will have a harder time.
Lucjan
Deutzer Freiheit
#15 - 2012-01-18 21:33:29 UTC
I don't think it needs to be a fixed rate. I just this you should be able to ignore the garbage ones with search variables.

Also let us ignore the non accessible station ones. You losers don't want to open you port to us, haul your own crap.
Atticus Fynch
#16 - 2012-01-18 22:48:31 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
This won't work as you intend it to. More people will put more of the hauling loads on their alts and/or friend's alts and/or dedicated hauling corps so they can avoid paying the "fixed" tax... pretty much the same way people make "shell corps" to avoid the NPC tax. Savvy people (i.e. the people with the ISK) will ALWAYS find ways around this to avoid paying the tax at all costs. Newbies (i.e. people with limited ISK) will have a harder time.


I disagree becuase people are iinherently lazy and the deeper their pockets, the more likely they are to spend for a service.
If they could do all this hauling with alts, they would already. and newbs do their own hauling anyway.

This does give hauling corps more teeth though, and that is a good thing becuase it actually makes "hauling" an eve profession instead of a "hobby" of sorts they way it is treated now.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#17 - 2012-01-19 07:41:03 UTC
Guys, please only post if you have something constructive to say at least. I am sure it would be nice for the OP to know why you + 1 his idea.

ISD Eshtir

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons

Interstellar Services Department

ShipToaster
#18 - 2012-01-19 08:26:03 UTC
Ai Shun sums up what the point against you is.

Collateral is only to stop you stealing my stuff or pretending you lost it. The distance it needs to be moved is the determining factor for the payment.

.

Atticus Fynch
#19 - 2012-01-19 10:25:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Fynch
ShipToaster wrote:
Ai Shun sums up what the point against you is.

Collateral is only to stop you stealing my stuff or pretending you lost it. The distance it needs to be moved is the determining factor for the payment.


Lets break this down:

Collateral is to cover the loss/theft of the shipment.

Reward is payment for the shipment.

You are saying that reward is based on the number of jumps/distance the cargo pilot has to cover. OK, but consider this...

IRL, wouldnt you pay more to have a ton of gold moved one mile/km vs a ton of cotton balls moved the same distance? Yes you would. Why? Because of the value of the cargo. RL insurance comes into play. Weight of cargo also comes into play...but we dont have these options in EVE becuase EVE is not RL.

So the only option is to reward based on collateral. In other words if you feel your cargo is worth 1 billion isk, then as a cargo pilot I expect payment proportional to the value of the item you are entrusting me with regardless of haul distance.

As a customer you are concerned with the shipment being done. As a cargo pilot, I am concerned with the distance. Customers should not be concerned with distance and if you are, then perhaps you should use the cheapest method avaialble...ship it yourself.

Based on the hauling/distance model you presented let me ask, are you willing to pay per jump if all you are shipping is a skillbook worth just 1mill isk over 30 jumps? No you wouldnt. To save money you would then claim the job is based on cargo value and not haul distance.

It's still the same distance to the cargo pilot regardless of cargo even though you may feel the job should be much less based on the value of your cargo in that scenario. It is still the same amount of work even if your cargo is 100mill isk in value over 30 jumps.

You cant have it both ways by saying reward is based on jump distance for short hauls of expensive cargo, then turn around and say it's based on cargo value when it is a long haul with cheap cargo. These are the two beliefs when it comes to cargo contracts.

The pilot loses out in both scenarios.

A fixed percentage based on collateral pays the cargo pilot for the work and it is FAIR.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

ShipToaster
#20 - 2012-01-19 12:21:23 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
A fixed percentage based on collateral pays the cargo pilot for the work and it is FAIR.


You see it as fair but I see it as no one using public hauler services. It is that simple. I would switch to private contracts with Red Frog as they are exempt from your massive jump in fees.

The next step would probably be to advertise for hauling corps on the forums and probably pay less than I do now.

.

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