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Warp Core revamp

Author
Tiberius NoVegas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-10-14 04:51:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius NoVegas
So the mechanic for warp cores has actually bothered me for a long time. It just doesn't make sense to me for a few reasons such as small frigate being able to stop a battleship (and a large warp core) from going to warp. while i understand the battleship could dispatch the frigate with ease, its the fact that the current mechanic allows this to happen that bothers me. SO here's my thought on a more robust mechanic based on a multi-point system.

Each ship based on its size (and possibly faction) is given a base number for its standard warp core stabilization. (the idea is that the number is somehow correlated to how long it takes the ship to achieve warp, i dont have access to the time it takes ships to achieve warp so im using these numbers as a base concept and will adjust them when i find solid numbers).
Frigates: 10
Destroyers: 15
Cruisers: 30
Battlecruisers: 45
Battleships: 90
Capitals: 135
Titans: 195

Industrials: 45
Transports: 90
Freighters: 135
Jump Freighters: 195

Warp disruptors will give a negative stat when used against ship based upon the module type being use against the ship.
Small modules: -10
Small II: -15
Medium: -30
Medium II : -45
Large: -90
Large II: -135

Warp Scramblers will also give a negative state but it will be stronger as well. the idea is simply that if the warp core stabilization hits 0 or lower, essentially warp corp cannot be activated.
Small modules: -15
Small II: -30
Medium: -45
Medium II: -90
Large: -135
Large II: -195

Warp stabilizers will counter this by contributing a positive bonus to the warp core stabilization.
Small modules: +10
Small II: +15
Medium: +30
Medium II: +45
Large: +90
Large II: +135

Interdiction bubbles should function differently and i believe reduce all warp core stabilization to "0". Considering they are destabilizing warp cores in an area, it makes sense they are producing enough power to nullify even the most powerful warp core.
Interdiction nullifiers will simply negate the effect of the bubble, so they work relatively the same as they currently are.

To help balance this mechanic, Interceptors and Interdictors should receive a bonus based on skill level as such.

Interceptor: 80% reduction to Medium Disrupter/Scrambler module power requirements
Interdictor: 80% reduction to Large Disrupter/Scrambler module power requirements

My main issue with the current system is all ships have 1+ to warp core stabilization. From there on its simply a +/-1 or 2 tug-of-war for warp core stabilization. its essentially coming down to who ever brings the most stabilizers vs who ever brings the most disrupters/scamblers. it reduces the whole mechanic to simply who can fit the most modules on, this doesnt sit well with me as it tends to take away the mechanic from the game. instead of having a dynamic warp core mechanic, we have the current rather static one.

Ive thought of the whole concept of how people may not like how a frigates warp disrupters/scramblers dont affect larger ships now...the solution to that is more complicated, im no mathmatican but ill try to explaine. Lets sare warp core strength is C, stabilizers are S, we will call disrupters/stabilizers drag represented with a D (remember these are all negative numbers) and give warp capability a W. Remember how i said the warp core strength should be somehow correlated with the time it takes for a ship to enter warp? Well call that variable N.
( C + S) + D = W

If W is equal to or less then 0, then warp is not achieved.
if W is greater then 0 then the following equation should take over.

C + -D = N

With N being the new time it takes to achieve warp with drag added.

This will allow smaller ships to slow down bigger ships until either help can arrive or bigger ships break away from the drag.

Im not saying my idea is the best, just a thought to improve it and i want to know if anyone else has a better idea for the mechanic.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#2 - 2016-10-14 11:00:14 UTC
I to want my titans and JF to be unpointable. I mean really, what's the point of playing Eve if there is a risk of actually losing a valuable asset?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2016-10-14 11:07:47 UTC
"CCP, please make catching people when solo next to impossible."
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2016-10-14 12:36:35 UTC
You forgot to ask for bubbles and HIC points to be removed too.

Roll
Tiberius NoVegas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2016-10-14 14:15:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius NoVegas
Danika Princip wrote:
You forgot to ask for bubbles and HIC points to be removed too.

Roll


Interdiction bubbles should function differently and i believe reduce all warp core stabilization to "0". Considering they are destabilizing warp cores in an area, it makes sense they are producing enough power to nullify even the most powerful warp core.
Interdiction nullifiers will simply negate the effect of the bubble, so they work relatively the same as they currently are.

To help balance this mechanic, Interceptors and Interdictors should receive a bonus based on skill level as such.

Interceptor: +5 pts to warp disrupter/scrambler strength per interceptor level
Interdictor: +15 pts to warp disrupter/scrambler strength per interdictor level

This mechanic simply shifts risk to smaller ships and in some ways actually makes some ships easier to catch over the current system. Large ships become harder to prevent from warping but only by smaller ships. i feel this system makes more sense compared to the current system and is more balanced.
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
SONS of BANE
#6 - 2016-10-14 15:10:20 UTC
so in a solo kiting frig with only one long point, I cant possibly hold down anything bigger than a frigate? not even a destroyer?


...and imagine comms in a fleet fight! ([ ] brackets for more realism)

FC: do we have point on that BS?

pilot 1: I have a t1 small point on him
pilot 2: i have a med t2 long point on him
pilot 2: sorry, lost point
[pilot w: where do we align to?]
pilot 3: medium t1 scram on BS
[pilot x: t2 large point on ishtar]
[FC: leave the f*cking ishtar alone, points on BS]
pilot 2: got point again
pilot 1: I'm down, lost point
[pilot y: need bio, brb]
pilot 4: got 2 small t1 long points on him
pilot 5: a t1 small long point and a medium t2 scram on BS
[pilot z: small t2 point on Ishtar]
...

do you see what I mean? Could you keep track of the numbers in even a small engagement? ...Do you think a FC, who already has the most boring job in all of eve, needs some more exercise for her/his brain cells?

This would be nothing short of unplayable!

sorry, but that's a clear -1 from me.
Cade Windstalker
#7 - 2016-10-14 16:32:41 UTC
Your 'logic' here is internal only to your system. You're basically saying that CCP's idea of how a warp core works doesn't fit with your idea of how this *entirely fictional piece of technology* works and you would like them to change to your idea.

There's no gameplay purpose being served here, as several people have pointed out this would make small ships basically useless as tackle and make large ships all but uncatchable in most practical contexts. There's no good gameplay reason to do this, at least that I see or that you've provided, and it would shift things *massively* into the favor of the defender in any attempt to tackle them.

For example if I'm sitting 150km off the gate in a sniper ship and a small fleet warps in they need *nine* Frigate sized points to stop me, which for most practical purposes means at least 5 Frigates. That's probably half of any small gang, and if I nail even one of those 5 frigates as they're burning in, nope I warp off scott-free having done whatever damage I've done.

Just no, that's a terrible dynamic, and this entire idea is basically an argument over how fictional technology should work.
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
WE FORM V0LTA
#8 - 2016-10-14 17:11:04 UTC
Um. No.

They did already give supercaps and titans more warp core strength, just as they did make heavy scramblers. This is about as far as you want the mechanic to go.

As far as subcaps go, they already added so many ways to never get caught that the game suffers - there's basically no real risk unless you want it already, a bad thing in a game designed around risk.

Battleships, some battlecruisers, DSTs, and some destroyers have MJDs now, MJD > long point.

Specialized bays in the haulers let you carry tons of cargo, a huge tank, and like 4 or more warp stabs. Already broken.

Nullfied interceptors and t3s. Need I say more.

Even ratting ships are arguably too safe - so many of them are able to rat at ~80km from the site that catching them is a stretch, especially with MJDS or oversized ABs.

It's too hard to catch things as it is. The game needs to go in the other direction - things gain value as they are risky to move or harvest.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#9 - 2016-10-14 17:46:42 UTC
This would only make F1 blobs even stronger and would decimate small gang and solo pvp.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Christopher Mabata
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#10 - 2016-10-14 17:52:58 UTC
Too many negative implications here for many aspects of the game, if your having issues with being tackled by small things then you need to work on not getting tackled in the first place or fit an energy neutralizer.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Tiberius NoVegas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2016-10-14 18:21:29 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Your 'logic' here is internal only to your system. You're basically saying that CCP's idea of how a warp core works doesn't fit with your idea of how this *entirely fictional piece of technology* works and you would like them to change to your idea.

There's no gameplay purpose being served here, as several people have pointed out this would make small ships basically useless as tackle and make large ships all but uncatchable in most practical contexts. There's no good gameplay reason to do this, at least that I see or that you've provided, and it would shift things *massively* into the favor of the defender in any attempt to tackle them.

For example if I'm sitting 150km off the gate in a sniper ship and a small fleet warps in they need *nine* Frigate sized points to stop me, which for most practical purposes means at least 5 Frigates. That's probably half of any small gang, and if I nail even one of those 5 frigates as they're burning in, nope I warp off scott-free having done whatever damage I've done.

Just no, that's a terrible dynamic, and this entire idea is basically an argument over how fictional technology should work.


under my system, two interceptors could stop a BS.

You do make a valid point thought with my logic. my main issue with the current system is all ships have 1+ to warp core stabilization. From there on its simply a +/-1 or 2 tug-of-war for warp core stabilization. its essentially coming down to who ever brings the most stabilizers vs who ever brings the most disrupters/scamblers. it reduces the whole mechanic to simply who can fit the most modules on, this doesnt sit well with me as it tends to take away from whole concept.

Im not saying my idea is the best, just a thought to improve it and i want to know if anyone else has a better idea for the mechanic.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#12 - 2016-10-14 21:25:06 UTC
Frigates are the kryptonite of battleships by design

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#13 - 2016-10-14 21:38:49 UTC
Why do you want to nerf "hero tackling"... one of the most noble of newbie professions?
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#14 - 2016-10-14 22:08:15 UTC
I'm going to say what everyone else is too polite to say:

You need to **** off with this idea until you have some actual experience upon which you can formulate an opinion that isn't so laughably uneducated.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Cade Windstalker
#15 - 2016-10-14 23:58:21 UTC
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:

under my system, two interceptors could stop a BS.

You do make a valid point thought with my logic. my main issue with the current system is all ships have 1+ to warp core stabilization. From there on its simply a +/-1 or 2 tug-of-war for warp core stabilization. its essentially coming down to who ever brings the most stabilizers vs who ever brings the most disrupters/scamblers. it reduces the whole mechanic to simply who can fit the most modules on, this doesnt sit well with me as it tends to take away from whole concept.

Im not saying my idea is the best, just a thought to improve it and i want to know if anyone else has a better idea for the mechanic.


Under your system two Interceptors with a fit specifically designed to do so (it would take 3 scrams at least), and one nobody runs for anything but niche builds. Realistically speaking ships run a single long point and that's what the game is currently balanced around. Your system makes long-points nearly useless and Scrams have to be used for their ability to actually stop things.

The Warp Disruption mechanics in this game exist more or less purely to force fights, nothing more and nothing less. Your thinking here seems to be that this needs to be more complicated or involve more nuance when it really just doesn't. What your system does is make it almost impossible to reasonably catch larger ships with small fleets unless you also bring large ships, and small ships are now basically worthless as tackle unless you bring overwhelming numbers of them.

Personally I think most people agree the system is fine as it is. Short vs long points offer an interesting trade off in how they're used and what they offer, and that dynamic, when combined with webs and other ewar is one of the most skill based and tricky parts of small-ship duels.
Hesod Adee
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2016-10-15 04:33:35 UTC
Under the current system, when a smaller ship gets into a fight with a BS, there are a few possible outcomes:
1 - BS kills smaller ship
2 - Smaller ship gets under BS guns, deals more damage than the BS can heal, smaller ship kills BS
3 - Smaller ship gets under BS guns. Doesn't have the DPS/ammo to kill BS. Whoever gets their friends to the fight first wins.


Under your system, that changes to:
1 - Unchanged.
2 - BS realises it can't win, warps away.
3 - BS pilot either knows that friends are on route, or he warps away.
Tiberius NoVegas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2016-10-15 18:24:56 UTC
Hesod Adee wrote:
Under the current system, when a smaller ship gets into a fight with a BS, there are a few possible outcomes:
1 - BS kills smaller ship
2 - Smaller ship gets under BS guns, deals more damage than the BS can heal, smaller ship kills BS
3 - Smaller ship gets under BS guns. Doesn't have the DPS/ammo to kill BS. Whoever gets their friends to the fight first wins.


Under your system, that changes to:
1 - Unchanged.
2 - BS realises it can't win, warps away.
3 - BS pilot either knows that friends are on route, or he warps away.


under this system a "newbie" player with minimal skills will not be able to stop a BS in a frigate. it would take 9 newbie frigates with minimal skill to stop it from warping if they all carry only one small warp disrupter. if there are 9 frigates with minimal skill trying to take down a BS i would say it would take more then 9 to damage it.

Even if you have skilled players with t1 frigates, it would take a minimum of 3 of them with high skill to stop a BS. That is assuming they are all carrying only one small Warp scrambler II. once again it will probably take more then 3 frigate with high skill to damage a BS.

Ive thought of the whole concept of how people may not like how a frigates warp disrupters/scramblers dont affect larger ships now...the solution to that is more complicated, im no mathmatican but ill try to explaine. Lets sare warp core strength is C, stabilizers are S, we will call disrupters/stabilizers drag represented with a D (remember these are all negative numbers) and give warp capability a W. Remember how i said the warp core strength should be somehow correlated with the time it takes for a ship to enter warp? Well call that variable N.
( C + S) + D = W

If W is equal to or less then 0, then warp is not achieved.
if W is greater then 0 then the following equation should take over.

C + -D = N

With N being the new time it takes to achieve warp with drag added.

This will allow smaller ships to slow down bigger ships until either help can arrive or bigger ships break away from the drag.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2016-10-15 18:35:41 UTC
But half the point of eve pvp is that bigger is not always better.

Your idea deletes this entire part of the meta.

Explain why that's good. Explain why one guy in a BS should be able to trounce nine guys in frigates without effort. Explain why you hate the idea of newbies being useful.
Tiberius NoVegas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2016-10-15 19:27:05 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
But half the point of eve pvp is that bigger is not always better.

Your idea deletes this entire part of the meta.

Explain why that's good. Explain why one guy in a BS should be able to trounce nine guys in frigates without effort. Explain why you hate the idea of newbies being useful.



Every module in the game is based on relative size to its use. There are few exception to this in the game. a major one being the warp core mechanic. This concept doesnt make newbies useless. it just requires more of them to work together to achieve an objective. isnt that the point of EVE, collaborating with other to achieve a bigger goal? isnt that why we have corporations and alliances?

Frigate still wont be able to be easily targeted by larger ships, so they can still harass larger ships with this mechanic. it just brings it into better perspective and in align with the whole concept of EVE modules size relativity. I also believe it adds to meta by changing the way small gang function. They will still exist but require greater coordination with each other.

the way i see is if 9 frigates stop a BS and take out the drones, they could sit there forever until backup arrives.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#20 - 2016-10-15 19:37:19 UTC


My solo bomber will be able to point the things that can easily kill it while not being able to stop the things it can kill.

Your idea is ****.
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