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Social regression in New Eden.

First post
Author
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#41 - 2016-10-13 19:09:02 UTC
Anyways, I'm not protesting to CCP to turn back on their EULA change, nor do I need to have my IWI Isk back to have fun in the game. I still like EVE as a game and there are many exciting new things coming up here, although for me the game has regressed now and I see more limited sandbox future for EVE with this particular incident showing CCP's intention for the game world.

I will still enjoy the game, and I'll do what else I can do in the game in my own ways. It's just that EVE is less special for me now than it has ever been, but I have already admitted that this disappointment is my fault as I had too high expectations and standards for what CCP can deliver as a game, considering the commercial aspect they have to deal with.

You will feel the changes though. Trust me. Alpha toons coming up, CCP's handling of the IWI fiasco, the way the games are being focused now. It will be a fun game. A fun space ship game with a bit of market and economy stuff that can be fun to play with. But it is no longer a niche game or uphold ground breaking vision of a sand box game.

The game will no longer transcend itself to more than something it is now. Yes, it can be more fun, yes it could have more players, yet CCP could make more money, yes there could be more action, but the game concept development stopped here from my view point.

I accept the limitations imposed by RL issues and will take it as it is. But I just wanted to express my views on what has happened to the game from long term point of view, in this period where people are so distracted by ISK loss and gambling legalities and RMT scandals and such other details.

I won't try to change anybody's mind on their support/protest on what CCP has done. This was just technical analysis of what has happened and its implications for EVE. That's all there is to it.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#42 - 2016-10-13 19:22:06 UTC
I'm not gonna .. can't .. no .. argh...

Keep it in ... gmmh

No surprise certain branches of philosophy are perceived as useless; and people forcing their pointless jibber jabber on others appear arrogant, always evasive and seem never able to be clear about anything ... and in the end saying nothing! I'd define it as being irritating with intent.

Look at your thread, you propose nothing, if not false or non-related, you defend it with nothing, you conclude or rather assume what suits you without any evidence or fact and defend it with vague definitions and excuses; philosophy this, read that... All of which all sounds like an appeal to authority to me.

In the end you appear like a very literate troll, having engaged a bunch of people for nothing but your entertainment. And if you are open and earnest about what you say, that should give you something to think about the content and value of the type of 'philosophy' you adhere to.

This thread is a bag of hot air.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#43 - 2016-10-13 19:28:25 UTC
my last post on this, for tl/dr

EVE could become more fun, it could have more players, there could be more things you can do in game, there could be more ships to fly, new things to explore and destroy, etc. It will be a fun and successful game for long time, and I don't even for a moment feel that 'eve is dying' because of banning gambling.

Players may feel that their game is getting better, more fun, etc, and CCP could be making more profits or whatever, which could go back into the development to make the game 'better', in the traditional notion of 'progress'.

But unless CCP realises what they have done (they probably do, they ain't stupid), and change their mind about their vision for the game and how they approach these kind of issues, EVE will never transcend into a different game again or get closer to the sandbox ideals many of us old players enjoyed. Maybe current boundaries as a sandbox will be good/fun enough for you, but that's where it stops.

As a gaming framework, EVE will remain what it is, till the server closes, and we will never see a new world structure again, maybe some new systems and regions or whatever, but no new era/social stage.

That I find sad, but I accept it for what it is. This is the limitations CCP has hit and this is where dream ends and we just consume the EVE as another product of the Culture Industry machine.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#44 - 2016-10-13 19:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Toobo
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
I'm not gonna .. can't .. no .. argh...

Keep it in ... gmmh

No surprise certain branches of philosophy are perceived as useless; and people forcing their pointless jibber jabber on others appear arrogant, always evasive and seem never able to be clear about anything ... and in the end saying nothing! I'd define it as being irritating with intent.

Look at your thread, you propose nothing, if not false or non-related, you defend it with nothing, you conclude or rather assume what suits you without any evidence or fact and defend it with vague definitions and excuses; philosophy this, read that... All of which all sounds like an appeal to authority to me.

In the end you appear like a very literate troll, having engaged a bunch of people for nothing but your entertainment. And if you are open and earnest about what you say, that should give you something to think about the content and value of the type of 'philosophy' you adhere to.

This thread is a bag of hot air.


Just as a final reply, as it would be rude to leave my own thread without acknowleding someone's reply -

It's a pity you can't see beyond what you are used to, and have no intention to make effort to learn and understand things you are not familiar with. But hey, it's your life and people live how they want.

If you can only see 'nothing' in my post you clearly have no capability to understand what I have been saying, and you make no effort to learn to understand it. I've pointed you classic resources you can read up on so you can understand something you don't understand now, but you resent my support. It's like someone points to an explanation of how something works but you refuse to read it and refuse to listen to the explanation and make judgement on things you are not familiar with based on your own prejudices and within your own limitations.

But it's ok. Your life, your choice.

Good luck o7

Edit; One of the dude I recommended as reading, Baudrillard, pulled an infamous f*cl you to academics by writing a paper with made up references, to make mockery of how people use references and name drops to 'rely on authority for their arguments as you say. I love that. That's why I did say that I don't like name dropping, as I agree with Budrillard on this. But it's kind hard to point you to study resources without saying the names of authors or books. I'm sincerely sorry if this was misunderstood and you took offence. My old time teaching instinct kicked in and I just wanted to recommend you good reference sources to help you, much like how people recommend specific blogs, articles or youtube videos to new bros to help them understand the EVE game mechanic.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Warzi zouille
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2016-10-13 20:09:30 UTC
Okay i see what you mean

When i saw regression i thought you were saying "it was better before said regression", and with your arguments it seems you are disapointed with the direction CCP has taken with eve.
I thought Regressing had a negative meaning, and so i disagreed with that, because for me the recent changes are not negative to the eve sandbox actually im quite happy with the nogambling thing and the alpha clones update

Same when you say eve has transcended what it was with those third party websites, i see only emergent gameplay crossing a little more the sandbox's border, and for me, das not gud, so going back to something das gud, aint no regression, its correcting the mistakes that were made by letting people do whatever they wanted and using the little holes in the EULA.

Now these holes have been covered

Again sorry for the eventual english mistakes
Session 1
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2016-10-13 20:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Session 1
Toobo wrote:
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
I'm not gonna .. can't .. no .. argh...

Keep it in ... gmmh

No surprise certain branches of philosophy are perceived as useless; and people forcing their pointless jibber jabber on others appear arrogant, always evasive and seem never able to be clear about anything ... and in the end saying nothing! I'd define it as being irritating with intent.

Look at your thread, you propose nothing, if not false or non-related, you defend it with nothing, you conclude or rather assume what suits you without any evidence or fact and defend it with vague definitions and excuses; philosophy this, read that... All of which all sounds like an appeal to authority to me.

In the end you appear like a very literate troll, having engaged a bunch of people for nothing but your entertainment. And if you are open and earnest about what you say, that should give you something to think about the content and value of the type of 'philosophy' you adhere to.

This thread is a bag of hot air.


Just as a final reply, as it would be rude to leave my own thread without acknowleding someone's reply -

It's a pity you can't see beyond what you are used to, and have no intention to make effort to learn and understand things you are not familiar with. But hey, it's your life and people live how they want.

If you can only see 'nothing' in my post you clearly have no capability to understand what I have been saying, and you make no effort to learn to understand it. I've pointed you classic resources you can read up on so you can understand something you don't understand now, but you resent my support. It's like someone points to an explanation of how something works but you refuse to read it and refuse to listen to the explanation and make judgement on things you are not familiar with based on your own prejudices and within your own limitations.

But it's ok. Your life, your choice.

Good luck o7

Edit; One of the dude I recommended as reading, Baudrillard, pulled an infamous f*cl you to academics by writing a paper with made up references, to make mockery of how people use references and name drops to 'rely on authority for their arguments as you say. I love that. That's why I did say that I don't like name dropping, as I agree with Budrillard on this. But it's kind hard to point you to study resources without saying the names of authors or books. I'm sincerely sorry if this was misunderstood and you took offence. My old time teaching instinct kicked in and I just wanted to recommend you good reference sources to help you, much like how people recommend specific blogs, articles or youtube videos to new bros to help them understand the EVE game mechanic.



Please notice that(again) he doesn't really say anything in this response.

I really feel bad for this individual, it looks like gambling in Eve was something (the only thing?) that kept him from self destructing in real life. The only person he is fooling is himself it seems.

Toboo I hope you find your way my man...and I hope it isn't in the self destruction you wax so poetically about.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#47 - 2016-10-13 21:19:03 UTC
Ok, this a bit off topic now, but I'm really puzzled.

I honestly have no clue why some people think there's nothing in what I say. How more clearly can I express my thoughts? I even gave a whole list of literature to look up on if someone is unfamiliar with the very basic ideas behind what I'm saying.

I have my educational background on social theory, but I work in super high tech industry now. I talk to engineers and read technical papers and scientific research papers all the time while having minimal educational background in natural science.

I don't completely understand everything that's written on such papers, especially scientific formula, but I never feel that such papers say 'nothing' just because it's not something I'm familiar with or trained in.

Reading something that's written in very plain English, where basic concepts are explained multiple times in various ways to help understanding, yet if you see nothing in it I really don't know what to do.

I honestly hope it's my lack of communication skills or problem with expressing my thoughts, but heck, for my entire working life I made my living from writing and speaking and I earn enough with this that I can afford house and support my family and made huge progresses in my professional career even after the big switch from academia specialising in social theories to business environment in high tech industry. The only reason I could do this was because I could read, think, write and speak, not because I had technical experience or engineering genius in this new field.

So either I have a problem, which I can accept, and would be happy if anyone can point out and explain to me so I can get better at it, or some people are just not even trying to understand what I'm saying, which I would find sad if that were the case.

I don't mind that people disagree with what I say, but to actually say that I'm saying 'nothing'?

Thanks for wishing me luck on finding my way, I appreciate the concern.

But no, gambling wasn't something that kept myself from self destruction IRL, I started to EVE gamble at IWI only this May 2016, and I survived 30+ years without IWI before trying it out for the first time just a few months ago, so I assume I can live my life without gambling with ISK.

And I greatly enjoyed EVE for almost a decade without gambling with ISK until this year. I really do appreciate the kind concern, but I'm just really lost and cannot understand where such assumptions about me comes from, in addition to the fact that I have absolutely no clue why people say I'm saying 'nothing' or 'not saying anything'.

I will not argue back about who's right or wrong or whatever, I expressed my thoughts clearly and it is very specific point about very specific shift in the development of a game we all play, which I assumed would be good enough common ground to make sense. Now I'm just genuinely curious why some people say I'm saying 'nothing'. :p




Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc.
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#48 - 2016-10-13 23:27:32 UTC
And here I thought you were going to leave the thread 2 replies ago lol


Any passive isk sources have been under combat from CCP and the player base for ages. Not logging into the game and making the most isk you can make in game using real world legal grey areas is a sad thing to continue and Im glad that CCP has removed it.

That you admit your own weaknesses and troubles with gambling and then cognitively trying to defend it as a "transcendence" of the game is sad on a personal level and you frankly need help for your addictions and I hope you seek and find it.

All of this is a move in the right direction by CCP for me and I am glad its happened entirely. Play the game or GTFO please.

I had a conversation years ago with a friend of mine about how much isk is enough isk. I said once you have more than you need there isnt a need for more, they disagreed and said no amount is too much. Yet honestly the only end entropy result of more and more isk in a game isnt for in game reasons but entirely going to end in RMT one way or another.Roll

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#49 - 2016-10-14 03:43:15 UTC
Thanks Eternus for the comment, altough it's still based on the assumption that what I write is fueld by my personal issues. There is nothing more I can say on this if people cannot separate my own gambling tendencies with my thoughts on social framework and changes of the game. It's almost like if someone from a certain alliance says something about the game people automatically assume it as conspiracy to serve that alliance's interests. It is sad that words are not judged on its own merit and there is more enphasis on who said it and what kind of a person that is, the same BS I hated in academia. But it is what it is. Thanks for your comment.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#50 - 2016-10-14 04:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
The changes to the EULA are a projection of the real world into our fantasy society. This is not CCP changing their vision for the game, though their vision had been altered. What is happening is a worldwide recognition that gambling encourages bad judgement and that the unscrupulous will take advantage of those whose judgement is clouded.

Looking to the future I expect CCP will realise their ideas for IP licensing to allow third parties to accept subscriptions for access to EVE-related content.

The grand social experiment will go on. Some of the parameters have changed but night still follows day.

"This has all happened before and this will all happen again. This has all been done before and will be done again. There is nothing new in human endeavour. 'Look! We are doing something new!' say the illiterate. But no, it has happened before, but outside their own memory. No one remembers what happened before they first woke. No one remembers to others after they last sleep. The cycle of the illiterate is predictable and inevitable." — from the old book of dead gods
Gregorius Goldstein
Queens of the Drone Age
#51 - 2016-10-14 08:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregorius Goldstein
tl,dr

But if you do a multi trillion ISK third party site you better have proof that everything is legit and do a transparent accounting. (I don't know if they did or didn't, CCPs will look into that for sure.)

If not you will get busted at some point. It's not "you can't proof I did something wrong", it's "you better have consistant journals for that scale of ISK juggling". Rememer: It's CCPs game we are playing, not the other way around.
Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
Brave Collective
#52 - 2016-10-14 10:02:05 UTC
Toobo wrote:
But I always maintained people have freedom to destory themselves, the true right to ruin themselves in a society we are born into without choice and in the modern culture of emphasis on progress and prosperity.


When your chosen method of self destruction makes my shirt dirty, or makes a bad smell, or threatens to burn down the surrounding neighborhood, you will be forced to control yourself or your toys will be removed.
Choice is what consumers are given as a consolation prize in place of rights that they would have had as citizens.
Citizens have rights and responsibilities, consumers have choice.
Are you sure you're an academic?


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Jesse Edwin Davis
Doomheim
#53 - 2016-10-14 10:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jesse Edwin Davis
Toobo wrote:
Now, little bit of that sandbox element has died again. And CCP wants us to labour in their in game space. That, is social regression for me.

Once again CCP cut off some part of the EvE and don't give anything in return.

Evelopedia: closed, no replacement was made, even no "lore part" was released.

DUST: closed, something was promised to be relesed. Someday. In distant future.

IGB: removed, no replacement, no new tools for third-party devs.

Soundbox: not so many people even remember now about it.

WiS: cancelled, promised to be never rised again. No social tools in return.

IWI: banned, no in-game gambling was made.


What we had instead? SKINs, SP trading, F2P.

It looks like CCP cut off everything what don't bring fast and easy cash. Such moves were usually made in other MMOs right before closure.

Not another "EVE IZ DYEING!!!!11" post, just a hint.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#54 - 2016-10-14 10:26:41 UTC
Actually Jesse, CCP removed nothing from EVE. Since there never was gambling in game.
IWI was a third party tool, not part of the game. And broke the EULA in pretty much the most serious way possible.

Also IGB removal has been alongside CREST introduction and is a large part of why they worked on developing crest, So they have given third party app makers new tools.

Evelopedia I know a replacement is in the works slowly from talking to appropriate lore ISD's who frequent RP areas. No idea how long and yea, it shouldn't really have been closed till a replacement was ready but oh well, it's got several mirrors in the mean time, just search for them.

WiS was cancelled because it gave no gameplay.
Soundbox was removed because it was poor quality compared to actual media players and they released all the tracks at the time for people to put into their own playlists.

& Finally Dust had run it's natural life and was dropping below a viable player base to keep good varied matches, matchmaking was putting the same people in the match constantly even when you waited a few minutes most of the time. And on last reports did actually make them money.

So..... Yea, not seeing any of your complaints other than EVElopedia as even the slightest bit valid, and that one isn't important since there are mirrors in the mean time.
Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2016-10-14 10:28:32 UTC
Jesse Edwin Davis wrote:
Toobo wrote:
Now, little bit of that sandbox element has died again. And CCP wants us to labour in their in game space. That, is social regression for me.

Once again CCP cut off some part of the EvE and don't give anything in return.

Evelopedia: closed, no replacement was made, even no "lore part" was released.

DUST: closed, something was promised to be relesed. Someday. In distant future.

IGB: removed, no replacement, no new tools for third-party devs.

Soundbox: not so many people even remember now about it.

WiS: cancelled, promised to be never rised again. No social tools in return.

IWI: banned, no in-game gambling was made.


What we had instead? SKINs, SP trading, F2P.

It looks like CCP cut off everything what don't bring fast and easy cash. Such moves were usually made in other MMOs right before closure.

Not another "EVE IZ DYEING!!!!11" post, just a hint.


Except for that tiny little detailthat IWI was never part of Eve.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Jesse Edwin Davis
Doomheim
#56 - 2016-10-14 10:33:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jesse Edwin Davis
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
WiS was cancelled because it gave no gameplay.

It was said by a large bunch of people who see no gameplay in social interaction - and CCP was leashed by them. Their gameplay is all about pressing "F1" key and they don't need anything beyond it. They got numbers - they make the rules.

Elenahina wrote:
Except for that tiny little detailthat IWI was never part of Eve.

Shhhh!.. Don't tell anyone... I just want in-game casino badly...
Memphis Baas
#57 - 2016-10-14 10:48:28 UTC
Toobo wrote:
I honestly have no clue why some people think there's nothing in what I say. How more clearly can I express my thoughts?
People decide the value of the speech based on the value of the speaker. "I'm a gambling addict, on and let me casually mention also a substance abuser, but ignore all that and focus on this precise point that I have, which is actually mostly spin and whining that I'll spend the next dozen replies fine-tuning with more spin."


Case-in-point for the spin:
Toobo wrote:
But it is no longer a niche game or uphold ground breaking vision of a sand box game.
1. Sandbox is neither ground-breaking nor invented by CCP.
2. Your 3rd party gambling site was NOT inside the sandbox; on the contrary, you spend the better part of your original post explaining how it was outside it.
3. EVE isn't niche solely because of its sandbox; it's also niche as a PVP game, as a sci-fi / space flight game, and as an MMO.

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#58 - 2016-10-14 11:45:08 UTC
Memphis, that I find sad. I would never discount anyone's viewpoint because the speaker is a criminal or drug user or uneducated or whatever. I mentioned Barthes before, who was actually formally known as Frrench literature critique/professor. Before him the dominant tradition in French literature study in academic circle was that you have to analyse the life story of the author, almost to the extent of doing pseudo psychoanalysis of the author to understand and analyse his literary work.

Barthes was a regolutionary. He considered a literary work should be appreciated and analysed in itself first and foremost. It's sort of like 'blind testing'. You read a book and evaluate it on its own merit instead of looking at who the auhor is and applyinh prejudices based on that.

It would be extremely stupid for me to discount anyone's opinion because he does not have PhD or went to university, or because of his job or personal/family background. Equally it's stupid to judge my words with prejudice because I had been a gambling addict and substance abuser. To me that's just very shallow and not a good example of open mind and communication.

I'm not even raging anymore. I just feel sad that people can't get out of the narrow cliche of accusing someone's words with silly assumptions about 'spin' or ulterior motives.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Captain Dingles
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2016-10-14 12:27:31 UTC
#spaceshipsoutforiwantisk
Thomas Lot
Vogon Innovation
Warped Intentions
#60 - 2016-10-14 12:59:19 UTC
Toobo,

Thank you for the thread. The discussion here has been a bit easier to read through than the reddit thread. I understand the frustration of losing a part of the game that you enjoyed. I sincerely hope that you do not quit the game because of this. After all, the game is the more important aspect here.

My uninformed opinion is that CCP had no choice but to take the actions that they did. The environment towards gambling in virtual games is very negative and appears to be declining. The public should be able to see this as truth. CCP must not appear to have any association with this if they do not wish to become embroiled in the legal aspect. This may allow the company to focus more on substance than peripheral distractions.


I wish you the best.


Sincerely,
Thomas Lot