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Social regression in New Eden.

First post
Author
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#21 - 2016-10-13 15:18:33 UTC
Thomas Lot wrote:
Really need a tl:dr summary here.

The tl;dr is that OP is a pissant who's moaning over CCP banning RMT'ers and is taking action to close down what is currently a hot topic legal issue in the gaming world. With the current way things are going with the CS:GO gambling issues, it's very likely that someone, somewhere would be turning an eye to a game that touts itself as letting people be the villain. Better to nip pesky legal matters in the budd before they choke out the garden.

If you want to read the ramblings of someone out of touch with reality, read through her posts in the dev blog thread about it. She waxes on like a one-legged dancer on a gravel road to make CCP out as if they're making personal attacks against gamblers instead of bothering to read any of the information provided to her (multiple times) related to the ongoing legal issues with gambling and gaming.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#22 - 2016-10-13 15:20:19 UTC
Toobo wrote:
he power hegemony based on tyranny of 'logic' and 'facts',


as a side note: no worries, there's currently a "Make irrationality great again" movement which fights this hegemony tooth and nails.
Hesod Adee
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2016-10-13 15:37:23 UTC
Toobo wrote:
3. I have been aware of other current issues such as CS:GO. Where I failed was that I was too naive to believe in dark dystopian heme of EVE philosophy. I admit I was naive and wrong to believe this will persist.


Your mistake is in thinking that the gambling authorities will tolerate the Eve sandbox allowing gambling after the gambling incidents in other games. As far as those authorities are concerned, both Eve gambling and CS:GO gambling involves gambling on things with a real world monetary value. RMT being against CCPs rules doesn't matter.


Albeon Draken wrote:
Gambling websites constitute a legal grey area that can cause some substantial issues for game developers.

Especially when it's not going to stay a grey area for long. Now that the courts are involved, the courts are going to reach a judgement that clarifies things.

CCP needs to make sure they are on the legal side of the line once things settle down.
pajedas
Doomheim
#24 - 2016-10-13 16:32:38 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
You're obviously a fairly intelligent person, it's sad to see you use that intelligence to twist the reality of the situation into something it's not to justify your gambling addiction.

0.0029732408325074

🐇

Solonius Rex
F0RCED ENTRY
Negligent. Discharge.
#25 - 2016-10-13 16:52:02 UTC
Toobo wrote:
tl/dr, no more sand box and creative social evolution. Labour and fight in the space like primitive cliche. New Eden was evolving, CCP put a stop to it, they want it to stay stuck in old social model while even RL world has evolved into new mode of social frame.


But the problem is a real one. Money is power, and power corrupts. When you accumulate trillions upon trillions without even logging in, the allure of RMT becomes ever harder to ignore. People often do stupid things because they believe they will get isk, which doesn't even exist as a real currency. Imagine what people would do to get real life money?

I don't know if they were actually involved in RMT, only CCP could. But either way, I don't see this as a regression. Should anyone be allowed to do anything in the name of "Sandbox"? The answer of course, is No. Id say the blame rests on the RMTers, who have spoiled it. CCP has probably seen, time and again, RMTers using and running gambling sites that this has simply become a headache for all involved. With trillions of ISK being moved around to thousands of players, its just a burden for the CCP staff to monitor, and it simply makes sense for them to just ban it downright.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#26 - 2016-10-13 16:58:15 UTC
CCP would be stupid to not add a gambling for ISK or loteries now in the game.

What will lawyers do about that? Pretend ISK is real money? They should be paid in ISK then.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#27 - 2016-10-13 17:02:37 UTC
You may be surprised, but you all get my sincere thanks for your comments.

I fully understand that CCP is a commercial company with commercial interests, and that will always take priority over any old ideals or wishes of player base, be it majority or minority opinion, CCP will, and has to follow business plans and decisions that will pay their hard working staff and investors who commit RL money. And potential legal trouble is not in business interest of any company. Obviously I have a job too and I work in commercial company, so I understand all these issues.

I even conceded that gambling is 'bad' and a troublesome burden to bear for a commercial company considering potential legal issues.

More than anything I enjoyed the ride. Relapsing for the first time in more than a decade to old vice, embracing he addiction demon I kicked out of my life with full hearted passiom and love again, but this time didn't have to worry or suffer from any RL financial consequences. My incredible run of wins were happy accidents. What fueled me was the risk of loss. That I could lose what I had, the ruinous potential of gambling, the insanity of betting on long odds, the virtual demon I could clothe and feed and go rampant in hedonistic indulgence without RL consequence, and the best of it all was I was risking myself and putting my ISK and assets in danger, any loss was my loss, all the evil indulgence I could suck up without 'griefing' or making another real human being feel bad (although it did happen as some took it personally).

It is sad to see that some people are still so shallow to see my comments only as butthurt and salt, like I give a fock about 120b loss. What I lost was a virtual playground of pure indulgence in a vice I have promised myself to not indulge IRL.

ISK loss from IWI ban was not the issue, it's the loss of playground that transcended what EVE could offer for me, where losing officer fit ship no longer felt painful, where I could not risk and lose in game that can match the scale of potential loss gambling could offer, the meta game that took the sandbox to new level.

I appreciate the comments and will take them to heart. I will find other things to get my virtual 'fix'. From my own point of view EVE lost a great and long standing tradition that was kinda silly and quirky but awesome. It's not only ban on IWI that hurt me, but the ban on one of the sandbox possibilities that made EVE little less special for me. And the way CCP treated the whole thing, the message is clear. They took extreme measures to end this for once and for all with no future possibilities. Some are happy, some, like me, are not.

I hope I have done enough explanation by now to show that it's not the ISK loss or butthurt at this point.

Thank you all for your comments.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Commander Spurty
#28 - 2016-10-13 17:06:49 UTC
With the "soon to be realized ", end of 3rd party news sites (who ever paid their writers in ISK), CCP will gain a lot more traffic to this site.

At least there is that.

I don't much mind the concept of declaring the walls to the sandbox exist, but I hear what you are saying. All things being equal, the sandbox is going to feel a bit "snug" compared to just 72 hours ago.

The fact it's taking a while for this to all get adopted and codified is moot. It's happened and we are all going to feel a little bit like some sand was removed.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2016-10-13 17:18:45 UTC
Daily reminder to OP that the only ISK faucets in game are from mission payouts and bounties.

Dropped loot is useless if no one has isk. Minerals and mining ore are useless if no one has isk. You can't make money from any of this unless people have gotten isk somewhere else, as looting a module doesn't give isk, nor does harvesting.



Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2016-10-13 17:20:12 UTC
Commander Spurty wrote:
With the "soon to be realized ", end of 3rd party news sites (who ever paid their writers in ISK), CCP will gain a lot more traffic to this site.

At least there is that.

I don't much mind the concept of declaring the walls to the sandbox exist, but I hear what you are saying. All things being equal, the sandbox is going to feel a bit "snug" compared to just 72 hours ago.

The fact it's taking a while for this to all get adopted and codified is moot. It's happened and we are all going to feel a little bit like some sand was removed.



That was all well and good when the frontpage of eve looked like it did back in 20012, but not now.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#31 - 2016-10-13 17:25:22 UTC
Sorry, I might be dim witted, but all I got was blablabla, regessive, blabla, social, blabla, buhu, blabla, others are responsible to how I feel (experience the game), blabla some more .... and ... something I liked got banned, even though it is obvious whyLol.

Limiting on who can earn from your work has nothing to do with being 'regressive' nor social interactions or a combination.

And calling the thread "social regression in eve" isn't only click-bait, it's close to disturbing the peace Pirate There is enough social ideolog rubbish out there, we can do without that and similar theories here on the forum.
And I know its not really about that, but you can see how your title is misleading.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#32 - 2016-10-13 17:46:28 UTC
I call it regression because CCP practially drew line here, that ISK and assets should rotate and exchange hands within their game client and CCP approved forums etc. I am aware this is specifically applicable to third party sites using game of chance, but the heavy handed blanket action they have taken will probably mean that even if you come up with new creative idea of meta gaming on your own Third Party Site which does not seem to break EULA, you will need to double check with CCP whether this is ok, or you and your customers may suffer negative consequences on a whim. There will still be room for creativity, but it's not as unlimited or envouraging anymore.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Warzi zouille
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2016-10-13 17:52:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Warzi zouille
Thomas Lot wrote:
The OP point may be summed with the metaphor of the "Sandbox".

CCP sees the sandbox as having boundaries that need to exist within the game itself. This is demonstrated by the multi-box prohibiting and now by the outside gambling sites. These sites had a direct influence on the game. You may propose that sites such as the zkillboard, dotlan, EvEMon, EvECentral, or even fuzzworks have influence. That may be true but it is secondary influence that can be replicated by simple pencil/paper mechanics (albeit this task would be monumental if done by hand). Sites that serve as database information to enhance knowledge of and use of the game have a legitimate place. The gambling, and external direct manipulation sites and programs do not.

The gambling sites take the sand out of the sandbox, corrupt it, and then put it back in.


That's it, data sites like zkill eve central and others just provide you a tool to zoom in the sandbox, you still have to really play the game to really have an influence

I just wanted to add that even economically speaking, its messed up. Even with ingame trading or notinitiallyintended services like chribba's capitalship trading service, people still had to play the game to make yuuuuge amounts of ISK
The casino thing has nothing to do with spaceships. Eve is space pixels, when you do some metagaming like diplomacy for your nullsec alliance, its still about spaceships
Trading, still about spaceships
By creating these gambling sites, you implemented a new mechanic to the game using an external tool, and it had a huge impact on the wealth's distribution inside the game

What im saying its that they repelled the borders of the sandbox too far away and messed up too much things inside while doing that

And im not even speaking about RMT

Plus, but thats even more a personnal opinion, gambling is bad, irl and ingame, i must disagree to the fact that its a regression to remove this kind of thing, i'd call that a progress in making eve a better place, make nem eden great again !

Sorry if my points are not wo clear, im struggling with english too much
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#34 - 2016-10-13 17:55:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
You can call it what you like, but calling an elephant a dog doesn't make it a dog .. and company policy in this case is not related to social aspects nor can it be regressive in the way the business is run (again - in this situation). And I can repeat myself "neither social interaction" nor what you might consider 'creativity' is restricted in any way until it becomes a business ... and has legal implications and is not prone to some evolutionary social behavior or movement.

Should have stayed in academia .. and listen some more °°
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#35 - 2016-10-13 18:32:13 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
You can call it what you like, but calling an elephant a dog doesn't make it a dog .. and company policy in this case is not related to social aspects nor can it be regressive in the way the business is run (again - in this situation). And I can repeat myself "neither social interaction" nor what you might consider 'creativity' is restricted in any way until it becomes a business ... and has legal implications and is not prone to some evolutionary social behavior or movement.

Should have stayed in academia .. and listen some more °°



If you cannot see that it's a regression, I suggest you gain some basic understanding of post modernity vs. modernity debate.

A very basic entry level book I can suggest you is Social Theories and Modernity of Nigel Dodd, whom I had pleasure to learn from back in the School.

If you gain something from them, and would like to explore more on the topic, Roland Barthes and Jean Baudriard are books I would recommend. While debates are still on going for definition of modernity and post modernity, one thing that most agree on is that post modernism has transcended traditional notion of 'progress', be it politics, economics, art, or social structure.

It is a regression because New Eden is going back to what it has once transcended, back to the notion of progress and accumulation based on traditional understanding of wealth accumulation and production.

The fact that you consider such change a 'progress' is the proof that you are unfamiliar with the concept of post-modernity.

For Roland Barthes, there is very easy book you can read. "Barthes for Dummies". I usualy scope at such books, but that one actually has very easy synopsis of some of the key points. It is not essential to understand Barthes to understand Baudrillard, but a quick read on the background of the thought process can be helpful.

Baudrillard has lots of good books, but probably the most succinctly written one as a short book is "Simulation and Simulacra"

When you get to Baudrillard stage, and get a bit of grasp on what post modernity is about, and how the idea of 'progress' itself is a debatable concept, to tie it back to EVE world as a game, trace back to "The Culture Industry" by Theodore Adorno. This is rather short article you can read easily and get a grasp of how the notion progress in capitalist driven modernity with its consumer culture has affected how the society perceives 'entertainment'. If you read that and remember back to the Social Theory and Modernity book by Nigel Dodd I suggested, you can tie that in with Marxist thought of dialectical materialism.

Then you get a brief but full picture of how the idea of 'progress' has been discussed and transformed and evaluated over 2 centuries of social studies and analysis, and get a hint of what post modernity is about, and understand why I called this social regression in New Eden.

Sure, I could have learned more by staying longer in academia, as anyone can learn more from anything at any point in their life time. But I thought I'd try to help you a little so you have some idea about what progress/regression is in social theory terms.

I don't like to name drop, but I l have been trained in the School where Karl Popper taught himself (not at the same time though), whose catch phrase 'paradigm shift' is now a common expression that even non academics use and have basic understanding for.

If you have any further interests in this, I'm happy to support you on your journey to understand what 'progress' and 'regression' means. I don't deal with these stuff anymore at work, but I'm familiar with them enough to help beginners to understand.

Hit me up in eve mail if you are interested, or post here so others can benefit too (if anyone's interested at all lol)

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#36 - 2016-10-13 18:38:23 UTC
Just to avoid any misunderstanding, my educational background does not make me any more qualified than others. But although I left because I hated academic industry and how it is tied to political power structures of the current hegemony, but I'm qualified enough to help guide someone to understand this concept they may not be familiar with.

This is nothing special or bragging. I learned to drive from a drive instructor, who knew driving better than me as someone who has never driven a car before at that point. There's nothing hooray or amazing about academia. If you are not familiar with something, you learn from someone who is familiar with it. That's all there is to it.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Warzi zouille
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2016-10-13 18:47:53 UTC
Toobo wrote:


It is a regression because New Eden is going back to what it has once transcended, back to the notion of progress and accumulation based on traditional understanding of wealth accumulation and production.



Define regression plz

Joke aside, i usually see a progress as an advancement, something better, then going back to something better is a progession not a regression, but were playing with words here its pointless.

The real question is, is eve a better place with or without gambling sites, my opinion : definitely better now, why ? See upper post plz

Big Lynx
#38 - 2016-10-13 18:54:54 UTC
Lol Toobo. How many billions did u lose? Thats a special kind of bs what you are vomiting here.Roll
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#39 - 2016-10-13 18:57:14 UTC
Warzi zouille wrote:
Toobo wrote:


It is a regression because New Eden is going back to what it has once transcended, back to the notion of progress and accumulation based on traditional understanding of wealth accumulation and production.



Define regression plz

Joke aside, i usually see a progress as an advancement, something better, then going back to something better is a progession not a regression, but were playing with words here its pointless.

The real question is, is eve a better place with or without gambling sites, my opinion : definitely better now, why ? See upper post plz



That is the very notion I am not agreeing with and debating against. There were options, and there are less options now. Post modernity does not believe in social progress to 'better', in terms of human life experiences and such, as 'better' is subjective notion that cannot have exclusive claim to be the truth, as one person's 'better' is 'worse' for another, everything is relative.

So in such sense, where an option to play the game in a way that has transcended (notice I never say 'progressed') from the original framework of the game, has reached a newer social framework for the game than what it was before.

But now we have gone back to where it was, with that option removed for good in the game. You combine that together with CCP's emphasis on in game/in space activities and space ship and structure and resources centreed game play, then that goes straight back to modernity notion of 'progress through better/more efficient accumulation of wealth and prosperity'.

The idea that such things are 'progress', and that 'progress' exists for society, is an out dated notion. So Post Modern social theory believes that a society that has 'transcended' the traditional notion of what is a 'good society', in our case, what is a 'good game', is a narrow view point driven by ideology on how the world/game should be, and the assumption that there is a 'progress' in human history.

The removal of options, and switch back to this old format of thinking, and CCP's clamping down of those who went over the board of what they have designed to be the mechanic for a game of power and building of empires, puts the New Eden right back to 'previous' mode of social structure.

So since we have gone 'back' to more ancient understanding of society and the old ideology of 'better (game) world = progress', this is technically a regression in the structural terms of New Eden as a society.

That's what I meant.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#40 - 2016-10-13 19:07:07 UTC
Bet on me shaving my moustachio instead.

I am a trustworthy person and will hold the stakes - I have an e-reputation to maintain, after all.

No third parties involved - just you and I.

Come one, come all - satiate your addictions with Bumble!

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log