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Dev Blog: EULA Changes Coming With EVE Online: Ascension

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#321 - 2016-10-12 23:24:55 UTC
Lyra Everstar wrote:

Ok, I'll answer all your points in order
1. Even if it is a lure, you're still sending off money with a chance of getting some back even if the odds are stacked against you, or even if the scammer is just feeling generous, if they ban all games of chance, they have to ban anything that appears to violate the EULA e.g. if I started spamming Jita offering DDOS services, I would get banned, even if I was only scamming people.

2. see above point.

3. I think it was partly due to the outsized influence that gambling sites were having on the economy....

@Ralph King-Griffin, can you imagine the outcry if CCP actually banned someone on the grounds that there was no skill in PVP, and it was therefore a game of chance?
A game of chance is not created any time there isn't certainty in the outcome from one parties standpoint. The moment one group has complete control of the outcome, regardless of the other party not knowing what their intent may be, it's no longer a game of chance but a foregone conclusion (which yes, can go either way).
Ruddger
Vande-lay Industries
#322 - 2016-10-12 23:26:16 UTC
Quote:
Nope, it's a scam; a game of chance would require that there was a possibility, no matter how remote, of winning; there isn't.



Absolutely false. I've been paid out from this "scammers" before in jita. Same with the contract spammers, that sell 1 good navy vexor for every 10 scam vexors...


If there is a chance of a payout, it's a game of chance.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#323 - 2016-10-12 23:27:49 UTC
Lyra Everstar wrote:


Ok, I'll answer all your points in order
1. Even if it is a lure, you're still sending off money with a chance of getting some back even if the odds are stacked against you, or even if the scammer is just feeling generous, if they ban all games of chance, they have to ban anything that appears to violate the EULA e.g. if I started spamming Jita offering DDOS services, I would get banned, even if I was only scamming people.

2. see above point.

3. I think it was partly due to the outsized influence that gambling sites were having on the economy....

@Ralph King-Griffin, can you imagine the outcry if CCP actually banned someone on the grounds that there was no skill in PVP, and it was therefore a game of chance?

I think you're misunderstanding what's defined as a game of chance here.

"A game of chance is a game whose outcome is strongly influenced by some randomizing device, and upon which contestants may choose to wager money or anything of monetary value. Common devices used include dice, spinning tops, playing cards, roulette wheels, or numbered balls drawn from a container. A game of chance may have some skill element to it, however, chance generally plays a greater role in determining the outcome than skill. A game of skill, on the other hand, also has an element of chance, but with skill playing a greater role in determining the outcome"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_chance

My lying to you about doubling the isk you send me isn't covered by that.

PvP is quite literally irrelevant to this conversation.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

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Ruddger
Vande-lay Industries
#324 - 2016-10-12 23:29:35 UTC
Quote:

You're right about [<------this------>] far away from me having to come find you and test your knowledge of specific mechanics.



I've lived in curse for 13 years. Come at me brah
Dodo Veetee
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#325 - 2016-10-12 23:30:59 UTC
I like the Goons/CFC dudes with their hateboners for IWI saying that gambling is the cancer of the game. I remember them trying to open up an "EVE Casino" and failing miserably. Maybe they're just mad they are incompetent?

Who knows.

But losing EVE-Bet is sad, it was a great website that was always involved with the community.
Tavin Aikisen
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#326 - 2016-10-12 23:31:30 UTC
That's a bit stiff, isn't it? Introducing new terms and immediately banning people without any grace period to allow them to lawfully cease and desist?

"Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home."

-Cold Wind
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#327 - 2016-10-12 23:34:22 UTC
Tavin Aikisen wrote:
That's a bit stiff, isn't it? Introducing new terms and immediately banning people without any grace period to allow them to lawfully cease and desist?

Train reading comprehension to 1.
People were banned for breaching existing rules.
New eula is not in effect yet.

Also for the previous posters. Third party in a legal document is referring to a non CCP operated website or service. Not to another player operating inside Eve.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#328 - 2016-10-12 23:34:41 UTC
Ruddger wrote:
I've been paid out from this "scammers" before in jita.

Of course you did ... Good going there champ.

To be clear I'm not being sarcastic, I'm %100 certain you're the sort of player that would.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

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Jew Jew Binks
Doomheim
#329 - 2016-10-12 23:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jew Jew Binks
Quote:
In short, this addition to the EVE Online EULA means that as of the launch of EVE Online: Ascension, players will be prohibited from using in game assets and currency, as well as the EVE IP, to take part in or promote gambling services or other games of chance that are operated by third parties.


are isk doublers third partyes ? no? then they won't be banned.

topic closed

edit: from that quote i also understand that people who spam chats with links to loteryes and those with loteryes in their bio could get banned
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#330 - 2016-10-12 23:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Lyra Everstar wrote:
1. Even if it is a lure, you're still sending off money with a chance of getting some back even if the odds are stacked against you, or even if the scammer is just feeling generous, if they ban all games of chance, they have to ban anything that appears to violate the EULA
2. see above point.
It's not a game of chance, it's trickery.

A game of chance is a game whose outcome is strongly influenced by some randomising device, one in which players choose to wager money or anything of monetary value. Common games include the use of dice, spinning tops, playing cards, roulette wheels, or numbered balls drawn from a container.

A scam is a dishonest scheme or a confidence game, for example the 3 cups game is not a game of chance, it is a confidence game that often involves the use of shills to make it appear genuine, just like isk doubling.

Quote:
e.g. if I started spamming Jita offering DDOS services, I would get banned, even if I was only scamming people.
You'd get banned for offering a service that breaks the EULA (see quote) and several real world laws.
Quote:
CONDUCT

A. Specifically Restricted Conduct

You may not submit any content to any chat room or other public forum within the Game that is harassing, abusive, threatening, harmful, obscene, libelous or defamatory, encourages conduct that could constitute a criminal offense or give rise to civil liabilities, or is unlawful in any other way, including without limitation the submission of content that infringes on a third-party’s intellectual property rights.


Quote:
3. I think it was partly due to the outsized influence that gambling sites were having on the economy....
At least partially yes, but CCP would have stupid not to have seen the way the wind is blowing in at least 2 nations, that have a sizeable number of customers, with regards to gambling and virtual goods. They've merely introduced rules prohibiting gambling before they were forced to.

edit damn you Ralph, looks like we went to the same source P

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Ruddger
Vande-lay Industries
#331 - 2016-10-12 23:44:15 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Lyra Everstar wrote:
1. Even if it is a lure, you're still sending off money with a chance of getting some back even if the odds are stacked against you, or even if the scammer is just feeling generous, if they ban all games of chance, they have to ban anything that appears to violate the EULA
2. see above point.
It's not a game of chance, it's trickery.

A game of chance is a game whose outcome is strongly influenced by some randomising device, one in which players choose to wager money or anything of monetary value. Common games include the use of dice, spinning tops, playing cards, roulette wheels, or numbered balls drawn from a container.

A scam is a dishonest scheme or a confidence game, for example the 3 cups game is not a game of chance, it is a confidence game that often involves the use of shills to make it appear genuine, just like isk doubling.

Quote:
e.g. if I started spamming Jita offering DDOS services, I would get banned, even if I was only scamming people.
You'd get banned for offering a service that breaks the EULA (see quote) and several real world laws.
Quote:
CONDUCT

A. Specifically Restricted Conduct

You may not submit any content to any chat room or other public forum within the Game that is harassing, abusive, threatening, harmful, obscene, libelous or defamatory, encourages conduct that could constitute a criminal offense or give rise to civil liabilities, or is unlawful in any other way, including without limitation the submission of content that infringes on a third-party’s intellectual property rights.


Quote:
3. I think it was partly due to the outsized influence that gambling sites were having on the economy....
At least partially yes, but CCP would have stupid not to have seen the way the wind is blowing in at least 2 nations, that have a sizeable number of customers, with regards to gambling and virtual goods. They've merely introduced rules prohibiting gambling before they were forced to.



Again so ******* incorrect. 3 cups game is a game of chance, when not used as a con game... it can be both you know. Your anology is silly. I can cheat at dice and its no longer a game of chance... that's generally true when you cheat...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#332 - 2016-10-12 23:45:56 UTC
Lyra Everstar wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Lyra Everstar wrote:
I'm serious, ISK doublers are encouraging people to engage in a game of chance
Nope, it's a scam; a game of chance would require that there was a possibility, no matter how remote, of winning; there isn't.

Quote:
the only change might be if CCP banned ISK doublers from paying out ISK to lure more suckers in, turning it from a lottery into a 'donation', but the current system where they do sometimes pay out (unless they argued it wasn't based on chance, but only on a purely predator/prey decision to see how much they could scam off someone, which might lead to someone trying to create a 'legit' lottery),
The payout isn't based on chance, it's a lure.

Quote:
it'd lead to the absurd situation of having a fake lottery is fine, but a real one is not.
If you're dumb enough or greedy enough to fall for an isk doubling scam it's not a lottery, it's a certainty that you're going to lose some isk.

On topic.
Given the current climate with regards to gambling in both the UK and the US I don't see how CCP had any choice in the matter. With the CS-GO ruling and the prosecution of 2 UK youtubers for promoting lotteries without a licence, regardless of the fact that it was with an item that, IIRC, was not officially exchangeable for RL currency, I think it was a wise move to preempt the potential for a legal problem.

I'm a little disappointed that I can't run an alpha and an omega simultaneously, I had plans for that if it had been allowed. Cry



Ok, I'll answer all your points in order
1. Even if it is a lure, you're still sending off money with a chance of getting some back even if the odds are stacked against you, or even if the scammer is just feeling generous, if they ban all games of chance, they have to ban anything that appears to violate the EULA e.g. if I started spamming Jita offering DDOS services, I would get banned, even if I was only scamming people.

2. see above point.

3. I think it was partly due to the outsized influence that gambling sites were having on the economy....

@Ralph King-Griffin, can you imagine the outcry if CCP actually banned someone on the grounds that there was no skill in PVP, and it was therefore a game of chance?


Unless the ISK doubler is using some sort of randomization method it is not a game of chance.

Third party refers to people outside of the game. Players in the game are the first party, CCP is the second. IWI is a third party. Chribba in game is a second first party and the norm has been to refer to these players as "third party" which is, admittedly a bit confusing.

So for the above 2 reasons ISK doublers are unlikely to be banned by this.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#333 - 2016-10-12 23:46:41 UTC
Ruddger wrote:
Again so ******* incorrect. 3 cups game is a game of chance, when not used as a con game... it can be both you know. Your anology is silly. I can cheat at dice and its no longer a game of chance... that's generally true when you cheat...
The odds of finding an honest 3 cups game are practically nil Roll; it's almost always a con, ask any sailor.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Ruddger
Vande-lay Industries
#334 - 2016-10-12 23:47:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruddger
Quote:
Unless the ISK doubler is using some sort of randomization method it is not a game of chance.



and what if the randomization method he is using is in game? what if he's deciding if this person gets paid out or not based on the time code? or the number of people in local when he looks? or whether his ecm mod successfully jams ? or the random collapse of a wave function in his brain?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#335 - 2016-10-12 23:47:40 UTC
Ruddger wrote:


Again so ******* incorrect. 3 cups game is a game of chance, when not used as a con game... it can be both you know. Your anology is silly. I can cheat at dice and its no longer a game of chance... that's generally true when you cheat...


Yes, when not used as a con game. Isk doublers are a con game. So you are wrong.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#336 - 2016-10-12 23:47:44 UTC
Do you put your own pants on or did someone help you getting them on your head?

No, three cups is not a game of chance, read the damn Definition I linked.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

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Ruddger
Vande-lay Industries
#337 - 2016-10-12 23:51:11 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Do you put your own pants on or did someone help you getting them on your head?

No, three cups is not a game of chance, read the damn Definition I linked.



Nothing in your definition makes this not a game of chance. The randomization is from the mixing of the cups, you know...like hand shuffling cards....


It doesnt have to be a literal "device"
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#338 - 2016-10-12 23:52:56 UTC
Ruddger wrote:
Quote:
Unless the ISK doubler is using some sort of randomization method it is not a game of chance.



and what if the randomization method he is using is in game? what if he's deciding if this person gets paid out or not based on the time code? or the number of people in local when he looks? or whether his ecm mod successfully jams ? or the random collapse of a wave function in his brain?


He wouldn't have to use one in game. He could just be sitting there we a die and roll it every time to see if he doubles the ISK or keeps it. That would, then be a game of chance I suppose.

For example: Using a 10 sided die:

Roll a 1: Send back double the ISK
Roll 2 or greater: Keep the ISK.

This game now has an expected pay out of (1/10)*2*(ISK Amount) or (1/5)*ISK Amount.

Still, I would not consider the ISK doubler a third party. Players are the first party, CCP the second, thus a third party has to be something outside of the players and CCP--e.g. a website.

Third parties are totally allowed as per CCP, with some rules and limitations, such as no scamming.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#339 - 2016-10-12 23:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
3 cups is also known as the shell game. It's such an honest game that there's an idiom devoted solely to it; that refers to deceptive practices.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#340 - 2016-10-12 23:56:45 UTC
Ruddger wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Do you put your own pants on or did someone help you getting them on your head?

No, three cups is not a game of chance, read the damn Definition I linked.



Nothing in your definition makes this not a game of chance. The randomization is from the mixing of the cups, you know...like hand shuffling cards....


It doesnt have to be a literal "device"

Except that the suspiciously charismatic lad that hand is attached to happens to know exactly where it is.
Making it a game of skill, namely the life skill of not handing your money to suspiciously charismatic lads.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

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