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Dev Blog: EULA Changes Coming With EVE Online: Ascension

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FOl2TY8
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2016-10-12 21:17:40 UTC
Vicata Heth wrote:


Pretty sure the EULA very clearly states that no in-game content has any real world value, and is the sole property of CCP. Don't see how ISK can be tied to $ because some third parties managed to find a way to convert it to $. Doing so is against CCP's EULA, therefore not condoned by CCP. IANAL but I get the impression this would absolve CCP of any responsibility, provided they make an effort to enforce their EULA.

I've no problem with them banning gambling websites because they've been found to be participating in RMT. My problem is with blanket bans because of a few bad apples.


Why do morons always forget the "spoil the bunch" part of that proverb?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2016-10-12 21:17:42 UTC
Vicata Heth wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.


This x1000. The more restrictions you place on the innocent/guilty in order to hurt the guilty, the more you hurt the innocent. And it generally has very little, if any effect at all, on the guilty. This is quite evident and verifiable in many areas of the real world today that I won't get into because :politics:. RMT will not simply vanish because gambling websites aren't allowed. The only thing that will happen is that the big RMTers will find a new way to disguise their RMT, and gambling sites will cease to exist for EVE.


Once a gambling site that gambles with virtual and worthless currency (i.e. video game currency which has no real world value) also has RMT it could very well become an actual online gambling website, and since these websites often rely on the games platform, the company providing the game can become complicit and face legal consequences.

So not. Not, "This x1000."


Pretty sure the EULA very clearly states that no in-game content has any real world value, and is the sole property of CCP. Don't see how ISK can be tied to $ because some third parties managed to find a way to convert it to $. Doing so is against CCP's EULA, therefore not condoned by CCP. IANAL but I get the impression this would absolve CCP of any responsibility, provided they make an effort to enforce their EULA.

I've no problem with them banning gambling websites because they've been found to be participating in RMT. My problem is with blanket bans because of a few bad apples.
It becomes a question of effort vs risk if the need for making "an effort to enforce their EULA" is your source of immunity That definition isn't specific and the clearly easier AND more proactive stance is to ban the activity that is the subject of question in the first place.

Not sure I agree with the heavy handedness of it, but given the consistency of these occurrences complete with repeat offenders someone has to decide how much policing this is worth.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#263 - 2016-10-12 21:18:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Vicata Heth wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.


This x1000. The more restrictions you place on the innocent/guilty in order to hurt the guilty, the more you hurt the innocent. And it generally has very little, if any effect at all, on the guilty. This is quite evident and verifiable in many areas of the real world today that I won't get into because :politics:. RMT will not simply vanish because gambling websites aren't allowed. The only thing that will happen is that the big RMTers will find a new way to disguise their RMT, and gambling sites will cease to exist for EVE.


Once a gambling site that gambles with virtual and worthless currency (i.e. video game currency which has no real world value) also has RMT it could very well become an actual online gambling website, and since these websites often rely on the games platform, the company providing the game can become complicit and face legal consequences.

So not. Not, "This x1000."


Pretty sure the EULA very clearly states that no in-game content has any real world value, and is the sole property of CCP. Don't see how ISK can be tied to $ because some third parties managed to find a way to convert it to $. Doing so is against CCP's EULA, therefore not condoned by CCP. IANAL but I get the impression this would absolve CCP of any responsibility, provided they make an effort to enforce their EULA.

I've no problem with them banning gambling websites because they've been found to be participating in RMT. My problem is with blanket bans because of a few bad apples.


Think for once....

If there is RMT at an ISK based gambling site, then it very well could be considered online gambling via the RMT.

The blanket ban is because CCP does not want to have to police this, which will cost them time and resources that we'd all be better off if they were used on the game itself. Also, if gambling sites keep having problems with RMT and becoming online gambling sites....State governments or the Federal Government might go after the common thread: CCP.

How hard is this to figure out?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#264 - 2016-10-12 21:21:15 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.


This x1000. The more restrictions you place on the innocent/guilty in order to hurt the guilty, the more you hurt the innocent. And it generally has very little, if any effect at all, on the guilty. This is quite evident and verifiable in many areas of the real world today that I won't get into because :politics:. RMT will not simply vanish because gambling websites aren't allowed. The only thing that will happen is that the big RMTers will find a new way to disguise their RMT, and gambling sites will cease to exist for EVE.


Once a gambling site that gambles with virtual and worthless currency (i.e. video game currency which has no real world value) also has RMT it could very well become an actual online gambling website, and since these websites often rely on the games platform, the company providing the game can become complicit and face legal consequences.

So not. Not, "This x1000."


Pretty sure the EULA very clearly states that no in-game content has any real world value, and is the sole property of CCP. Don't see how ISK can be tied to $ because some third parties managed to find a way to convert it to $. Doing so is against CCP's EULA, therefore not condoned by CCP. IANAL but I get the impression this would absolve CCP of any responsibility, provided they make an effort to enforce their EULA.

I've no problem with them banning gambling websites because they've been found to be participating in RMT. My problem is with blanket bans because of a few bad apples.
It becomes a question of effort vs risk if the need for making "an effort to enforce their EULA" is your source of immunity That definition isn't specific and the clearly easier AND more proactive stance is to ban the activity that is the subject of question in the first place.

Not sure I agree with the heavy handedness of it, but given the consistency of these occurrences complete with repeat offenders someone has to decide how much policing this is worth.


Although, just imagine the soundcloud rage if Grath Telkin couldn't log in for several days if CCPs U.S. operations were shut down due to facilitating online gambling....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#265 - 2016-10-12 21:22:48 UTC
FOl2TY8 wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:


Pretty sure the EULA very clearly states that no in-game content has any real world value, and is the sole property of CCP. Don't see how ISK can be tied to $ because some third parties managed to find a way to convert it to $. Doing so is against CCP's EULA, therefore not condoned by CCP. IANAL but I get the impression this would absolve CCP of any responsibility, provided they make an effort to enforce their EULA.

I've no problem with them banning gambling websites because they've been found to be participating in RMT. My problem is with blanket bans because of a few bad apples.


Why do morons always forget the "spoil the bunch" part of that proverb?


Exactly.

A bad apple spoils the bunch.

This is a classic example.

Heh, for ***** and giggles went to the IWI website from work...banned: gambling site.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
EVE-Bet Bam
Eve-Bet
#266 - 2016-10-12 21:23:07 UTC
WTS: Low SP toon mostly sat in Jita for SP farming and corp contracting.

WTB: A level 4 mission or Incursion alt or anything that will make ISK. Oh god please someone help me.
Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#267 - 2016-10-12 21:23:49 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
A few years ago I got so hooked on Somer Blink that I had a net loss of something like 20 billion ISK by the time I finally stopped. I was also really sore about how IWI was able to fund WWB against my (at the time) alliance. And obviously I don't think RMT should be allowed.

I don't think these are adequate reasons to ban third-party ISK gambling sites. I really don't play this game as much as I used to and I haven't used any gambling sites since I quit Blink, but I still think this is a pointless move and it only pisses off players who enjoyed this sort of thing.


Agree with you here.

I played blink, although I never sunk more than I was willing to lose into it (never been a big gambler). But after blink, I stopped gambling and haven't bothered with IWI, etc. Honestly, I love the fact that Goons, the biggest alliance in the game, was essentially made irrelevant by someone who wasn't combat oriented. For me, that is what makes EVE what it is.

I lost nothing as a result of these bans, nor as a result of the somer ban, as I had no significant amount of isk in somer when it was banned, and haven't taken part of the other sites. But I feel banning them was a bad move on CCP's part. This game has very much been made better by third party websites and tools, both of the gambling variety and the utility variety, and I feel this is the beginning of worse things to come in the future, especially with the API nerf known as CREST.


Yeah, banning RMTers...bad. Roll

As for prohibiting gambling...online gambling is illegal in the U.S. It is illegal to use such sites and to run such sites. If you gambled at Somer Blink while they were RMTing and you lived in the U.S. at that time you probably were engaged in illegal activity. It was small time and went un-noticed, but this is likely the motivation for the prohibition.


There are two types of people in this world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#268 - 2016-10-12 21:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Vicata Heth
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.


This x1000. The more restrictions you place on the innocent/guilty in order to hurt the guilty, the more you hurt the innocent. And it generally has very little, if any effect at all, on the guilty. This is quite evident and verifiable in many areas of the real world today that I won't get into because :politics:. RMT will not simply vanish because gambling websites aren't allowed. The only thing that will happen is that the big RMTers will find a new way to disguise their RMT, and gambling sites will cease to exist for EVE.


Once a gambling site that gambles with virtual and worthless currency (i.e. video game currency which has no real world value) also has RMT it could very well become an actual online gambling website, and since these websites often rely on the games platform, the company providing the game can become complicit and face legal consequences.

So not. Not, "This x1000."


Pretty sure the EULA very clearly states that no in-game content has any real world value, and is the sole property of CCP. Don't see how ISK can be tied to $ because some third parties managed to find a way to convert it to $. Doing so is against CCP's EULA, therefore not condoned by CCP. IANAL but I get the impression this would absolve CCP of any responsibility, provided they make an effort to enforce their EULA.

I've no problem with them banning gambling websites because they've been found to be participating in RMT. My problem is with blanket bans because of a few bad apples.


Think for once....

If there is RMT at an ISK based gambling site, then it very well could be considered online gambling via the RMT.

The blanket ban is because CCP does not want to have to police this, which will cost them time and resources that we'd all be better off if they were used on the game itself. Also, if gambling sites keep having problems with RMT and becoming online gambling sites....State governments or the Federal Government might go after the common thread: CCP.

How hard is this to figure out?


Well it would be pretty easy to figure out if CCP mentioned anything about this and whether or not it played a part in the new EULA changes in this dev blog. But they didn't. Wonder why?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#269 - 2016-10-12 21:28:58 UTC
Vicata Heth wrote:


Well it would be pretty easy to figure out if CCP mentioned anything about this and whether or not it played a part in the new EULA changes in this dev blog. But they didn't. Wonder why?


Why should they?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#270 - 2016-10-12 21:32:04 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:


Well it would be pretty easy to figure out if CCP mentioned anything about this and whether or not it played a part in the new EULA changes in this dev blog. But they didn't. Wonder why?


Why should they?


Well it would look less like a knee-jerk blanket ban because of RMTers, and more like something that was necessary to protect the game from legal troubles. I know I'd be a lot less inclined to look at this in a negative light if it was made clear that this was necessary because of the new developments around cs:go, etc. From a PR perspective, it would be pretty wise of them to make it clear, if this was the case.
Lucas Quaan
DEMONS OF THE HIDDEN MIST
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#271 - 2016-10-12 21:33:13 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Let's see...Somer Blink, RMTing. IWI, RMTing. EVE Cassino, multiple EULA violations...we aren't starting to see a pattern here?

Yes, a certain very popular eve betting site is not on that list and never was.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#272 - 2016-10-12 21:35:06 UTC
Lucas Quaan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Let's see...Somer Blink, RMTing. IWI, RMTing. EVE Cassino, multiple EULA violations...we aren't starting to see a pattern here?

Yes, a certain very popular eve betting site is not on that list and never was.


And have you been paying attention to things like this?

http://www.pcgamer.com/state-regulator-orders-valve-to-halt-csgo-skin-gambling-through-steam/

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#273 - 2016-10-12 21:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Vicata Heth wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:


Well it would be pretty easy to figure out if CCP mentioned anything about this and whether or not it played a part in the new EULA changes in this dev blog. But they didn't. Wonder why?


Why should they?


Well it would look less like a knee-jerk blanket ban because of RMTers, and more like something that was necessary to protect the game from legal troubles. I know I'd be a lot less inclined to look at this in a negative light if it was made clear that this was necessary because of the new developments around cs:go, etc. From a PR perspective, it would be pretty wise of them to make it clear, if this was the case.


It is not knee-jerk.

1. They put up with Somer Blink and that nonsense.

2. IWI was suspended and bans were handed down months ago only to be reversed against the advice of Team Security.

3. Now RMT has been verified along with EULA violations when one of IWI bankers went off to start another gambling site.

4. The problems Valve is having with online gambling sites (these are RMTers by the way in case you all have missed it)...legal problems that could, worst case scenario, lead to suspension of Valve operations.

Holy ****, how much more do you need to see that these sites are a problem?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
AnEpicDrop
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#274 - 2016-10-12 21:40:46 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
It is not knee-jerk.

1. The put up with Somer Blink and that nonsense.

2. IWI was suspended and bans were handed down months ago only to be reversed against the advice of Team Security.

3. Now RMT has been verified along with EULA violations when one of IWI bankers went off to start another gambling site.

4. The problems Valve is having with online gambling sites (these are RMTers by the way in case you all have missed it)...legal problems that could, worst case scenario, lead to suspension of Valve operations.

Holy ****, how much more do you need to see that these sites are a problem?

No one's gonna be convinced by reading these forums.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#275 - 2016-10-12 21:42:14 UTC
AnEpicDrop wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
It is not knee-jerk.

1. The put up with Somer Blink and that nonsense.

2. IWI was suspended and bans were handed down months ago only to be reversed against the advice of Team Security.

3. Now RMT has been verified along with EULA violations when one of IWI bankers went off to start another gambling site.

4. The problems Valve is having with online gambling sites (these are RMTers by the way in case you all have missed it)...legal problems that could, worst case scenario, lead to suspension of Valve operations.

Holy ****, how much more do you need to see that these sites are a problem?

No one's gonna be convinced by reading these forums.


Maybe if IWI killed their cat....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#276 - 2016-10-12 21:44:20 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:


Well it would be pretty easy to figure out if CCP mentioned anything about this and whether or not it played a part in the new EULA changes in this dev blog. But they didn't. Wonder why?


Why should they?


Well it would look less like a knee-jerk blanket ban because of RMTers, and more like something that was necessary to protect the game from legal troubles. I know I'd be a lot less inclined to look at this in a negative light if it was made clear that this was necessary because of the new developments around cs:go, etc. From a PR perspective, it would be pretty wise of them to make it clear, if this was the case.


It is not knee-jerk.

1. The put up with Somer Blink and that nonsense.

2. IWI was suspended and bans were handed down months ago only to be reversed against the advice of Team Security.

3. Now RMT has been verified along with EULA violations when one of IWI bankers went off to start another gambling site.

4. The problems Valve is having with online gambling sites (these are RMTers by the way in case you all have missed it)...legal problems that could, worst case scenario, lead to suspension of Valve operations.

Holy ****, how much more do you need to see that these sites are a problem?


CCP has given quite a substantial indication that it had to do with RMT specifically, and not a single indication that it had to do with potential legal troubles. I fail to see where you're making these correlations. Unless you're a lawyer who practices in this specific field, you'll have to understand if I don't take your internet space lawyer opinion at face value.
Marsha Mallow
#277 - 2016-10-12 21:47:49 UTC
EVE-Bet Bam wrote:
WTS: Low SP toon mostly sat in Jita for SP farming and corp contracting.

WTB: A level 4 mission or Incursion alt or anything that will make ISK. Oh god please someone help me.

I have 17m, can I help? P

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#278 - 2016-10-12 21:50:20 UTC
Vicata Heth wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:


Well it would be pretty easy to figure out if CCP mentioned anything about this and whether or not it played a part in the new EULA changes in this dev blog. But they didn't. Wonder why?


Why should they?


Well it would look less like a knee-jerk blanket ban because of RMTers, and more like something that was necessary to protect the game from legal troubles. I know I'd be a lot less inclined to look at this in a negative light if it was made clear that this was necessary because of the new developments around cs:go, etc. From a PR perspective, it would be pretty wise of them to make it clear, if this was the case.


It is not knee-jerk.

1. The put up with Somer Blink and that nonsense.

2. IWI was suspended and bans were handed down months ago only to be reversed against the advice of Team Security.

3. Now RMT has been verified along with EULA violations when one of IWI bankers went off to start another gambling site.

4. The problems Valve is having with online gambling sites (these are RMTers by the way in case you all have missed it)...legal problems that could, worst case scenario, lead to suspension of Valve operations.

Holy ****, how much more do you need to see that these sites are a problem?


CCP has given quite a substantial indication that it had to do with RMT specifically, and not a single indication that it had to do with potential legal troubles. I fail to see where you're making these correlations. Unless you're a lawyer who practices in this specific field, you'll have to understand if I don't take your internet space lawyer opinion at face value.


You haven't even read about Valve and Seam and their problems have you?

Nope CCP is doing just to troll you and Grath Telkin. Roll

BTW, a reason they may not want to disclose it....don't go looking for trouble. So far CCP has not had an issue over this with State or the Federal U.S. government. Best move....keep it that way.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
AMGSiR
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#279 - 2016-10-12 21:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: AMGSiR
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.

In order for game balance to be restored, all gambling must perish. The game should not be dictated by who has the better out-of-game wealth concentration scheme. Your bloviating about the how casinos "power the community" is no different than Al Capone's soup kitchens.


I find it quite ironic you and the other GSF dudebros are talking about gambling sites as if you didn't create your own gambling site only to have it fail, then went on a tirade about how much you all hated gambling sites and wanted to see them gone. Not to mention half your damn alliance gambled on IWI.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#280 - 2016-10-12 21:52:29 UTC
AMGSiR wrote:
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.

In order for game balance to be restored, all gambling must perish. The game should not be dictated by who has the better out-of-game wealth concentration scheme. Your bloviating about the how casinos "power the community" is no different than Al Capone's soup kitchens.


I find it quite iron you and the other GSF dudebros are talking about gambling sites as if you didn't create your own gambling site only to have it fail, then went on a tirade about how much you all hated gambling sites and wanted to see them gone. Not to mention half your damn alliance gambled on IWI.


Guilt by association is so easy and awesome! Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online