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Dev Blog: EULA Changes Coming With EVE Online: Ascension

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#241 - 2016-10-12 20:26:22 UTC
Minerva Arbosa wrote:
Ginger Naari wrote:
Minerva Arbosa wrote:
Elliott Spitzer wrote:
Toobo wrote:
If Iron is flagged as RMT (I have no reason to accuse him as such, but since they are doing blanket punishment on all involved, just for the virtue of involvement, not actual evidence of involvement) - then will CCP remove his SP too? Which was bought using ISK he made from IWI, which is now all of sudden judged to be involved with RMT, including down to Bankers who just got hired a few weeks ago?

WTF is going on seriously.


What? They are doing this because there is a massive amount of evidence involved.


There is no evidence as they can just do what they want why they want to. If there was evidence, then CCP would release reports on big items such as this and explain in wording how they found the link between RMT and IWI. No report, no evidence. Goes back to just because they wanted to.



Why on earth would the CCP Security Team publish how they found them out?

Do you seriously expect them to tell everyone the secret, just so everyone can find a way around it?


Cause if they are so good, then you wouldn't get around it. Also considering supposedly how much ISK / $$ are lost, I wouldn't be surprised if someone didn't send out a legal request on the matter. I mean like if you were accused of doing something you wouldn't have a form letter sent out to CCP in order to see the evidence levied against you considering how much real money you spent on servers, characters in the game, advertising and all of the metrics it takes for search engines? I mean if I were doing it I wouldn't bother sending a letter of inquiry. I would be sending a letter stating they are getting sued in the court of the state I live in even though they are a company from across the pond, as the laws governing my state allow me to do such a thing.


The EULA states that CCP can terminate your account basically at their whim. Send out that form letter, you have no leg to stand on.

And you are going to sue them over being banned from a $15/month video game? Oooookay....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#242 - 2016-10-12 20:29:02 UTC
TIL plenty of people think that bloggers/streamers/content generators can't afford to run without RMT or gambling site donations.

Funny. Here I thought people could do all these things just the same without being given ISK donations from big gambling sites. Silly me.

In all seriousness, if your operations are hinged on player donations, they're still out there, you just need to change your source. There's plenty of small, and some VERY large player-funded programs that don't rely on gambling, like code, halaima
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#243 - 2016-10-12 20:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Primary This Rifter wrote:

I'm sure the Washington State Gambling Commission holds a lot of sway in Reykjavik.

Or do you think the concern is that unless CCP bans these sites, Valve will take EVE off Steam?


No, but if they decide that sufficient action has not been taken they can make it illegal for EVE Online to be played in the U.S. just like with all other gambling sites.

Link

If they decide that CCP and EVE Online are facilitating online gambling CCP could have a real mess on its hands, and at the very least lose most of their U.S. player base.

Edit I: Oh, and according to that link, they could prosecute players for playing EVE Online if it is considered an online gambling site.

Edit II: From the FBI link,

Quote:
It’s also illegal for businesses to run gambling websites and to solicit online bets. Even companies handling transactions for cyberspace bettors can face federal charges.--emphasis added


So lets see...IWI is a gambling site, and RL money is involved. Hence it is is online gambling, which is illegal. CCP is facilitating that via their API--i.e. handling, at least in part, some of the transactions.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#244 - 2016-10-12 20:31:18 UTC
Altalicious wrote:
Well, if these RMT guys are in the USA CCP could contact the IRS about their activity. Any RL money they made could be considered taxable income and subject to appropriate taxes.


How do you know they were not paying taxes? Not like CCP has access to tax returns.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#245 - 2016-10-12 20:31:37 UTC
Toobo wrote:
Ginger Naari wrote:
Toobo wrote:
I said clearly ISK loss is not the major issue. RMTers deserve to get banned and their stuff confiscated, and any ISK given to RMTers can be removed from the game. I totally agree with that. Although I cashed out trillions from IWI, my ISK are safe as they are mine and in my hand and I have never RMTed.

But it seems you don't know how banking system worked in IWI. Bankers banked with their own ISK, within the limit they can afford with their personal ISK gained through legitimate means. But CCP confiscated all ISK from all bankers. It was a blanket punishment and players and bankers who may not have been involved with RMT suffered loss. The amount is not the issue here. It's about whether such blanket punishment is justifiable.



I look forward to the day that they catch up with you too.


You want to bet? ;) I bet you 500 billion ISK that CCP will not find any evidence of me doing RMT. You report me to CCP now and tell them you suspect that I RMT, so they have legitimate reasons to investigate me. Go on. Put your ISK on the line because your words are cheap. I'll use third party like Chribba for this bet, if you accept. This will be based on all in game transactions, so not bannable offense.

You don't have 500b ISK to bet? You don't have confidence enough in your implication that I may be involved with RMT? Do it baby. I'll cover the third party fee in full.

500b bet between you and me. You petition me to CCP for RMT, and if CCP finds me not guilty, I take your 500b. If CCP finds me guilty, you get 500b.

Let me know when you are ready to do that and put something at stake instead of throwing cheap words that don't cost you nothing with absolutely no reason to back it up. I'm ready to put in 500b for this bet any time. Either you take it or chicken out into your little hole and don't talk shite again.


This is a no-win situation for him. If proven you RMT, CCP will punish him too for being affiliated with you.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#246 - 2016-10-12 20:31:44 UTC
Minerva Arbosa wrote:
Cause if they are so good, then you wouldn't get around it.
Personally, I don't think any person with good judgement seeks to make their job harder because someone else is trying to goad them into proving how good they are at it. They're prioritizing future effectiveness over proving how "good" they are as they should.
nitox wulgax
TOX-industries
#247 - 2016-10-12 20:38:13 UTC
x:


I was there );
Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#248 - 2016-10-12 20:39:46 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Dabigredboat wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Good afternoon capsuleers!

Today we're here to announce some changes to the EVE Online EULA that are coming with the launch of EVE Online: Ascension.

You can read all about them in this Dev Blog, which includes a handy red-lined version of the new EULA that will come into effect on Tuesday, November 8th, 2016.


Updates & Clarifications:

The 90 day clause:

Our policy on inactive accounts has not changed, we have simply shortened the notice period from six months to three months due to a potentially higher volume of account creation.


Not going to read through all this to see if anybody had called you guys out on it but here:

So to be clear, after years of free publicity as these sites sponsored places like EN24, CZ, alllllllll the podcasts that got you attention on twitch and gaming sites, after they carry your tournament this year for the first bit and do an arguably better job than you yourself have this year, after all that, you're just going to take a heaving dump on their chest and outright shut them down because of .........

What a great way to thank your playerbase for its years of service keeping your company afloat.


So your own media is sparse, who do you suggest pays the writers that generate interest in your game now? Who pays the streamers that give newer players a glimpse of a game they might get hooked on?

Your community held you up when you were down, and your response to that is to purposely gut everything that currently generates content from the player base.


EDIT: Not to mention, prohibition has literally never worked, people will still gamble.


TMC did all of the above mentioned.

Without RMTing it all.

I never took money from IWI. Was never offered the money. Was never given money to stream (in-game money). I provided on average the MOST views for CCP and Twitch for eve online (average for 9 months was 900 viewers), almost triple that of other streamers like Ironbank.


So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.


This x1000. The more restrictions you place on the innocent/guilty in order to hurt the guilty, the more you hurt the innocent. And it generally has very little, if any effect at all, on the guilty. This is quite evident and verifiable in many areas of the real world today that I won't get into because :politics:. RMT will not simply vanish because gambling websites aren't allowed. The only thing that will happen is that the big RMTers will find a new way to disguise their RMT, and gambling sites will cease to exist for EVE.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#249 - 2016-10-12 20:42:00 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
I don't get why such a drastic change around gambling is required here... Just a bit of fun?!

As per the other poster, I'd like more clarification on this bit too:
"CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: (i) ... your account has been inactive for a number of 90 days"

I'm hoping you don't really have intention to bin inactive accounts through this...


They could always do this, but they never have. I wouldn't read too much into this.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#250 - 2016-10-12 20:43:16 UTC
Vicata Heth wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.


This x1000. The more restrictions you place on the innocent/guilty in order to hurt the guilty, the more you hurt the innocent. And it generally has very little, if any effect at all, on the guilty. This is quite evident and verifiable in many areas of the real world today that I won't get into because :politics:. RMT will not simply vanish because gambling websites aren't allowed. The only thing that will happen is that the big RMTers will find a new way to disguise their RMT, and gambling sites will cease to exist for EVE.


Once a gambling site that gambles with virtual and worthless currency (i.e. video game currency which has no real world value) also has RMT it could very well become an actual online gambling website, and since these websites often rely on the games platform, the company providing the game can become complicit and face legal consequences.

So not. Not, "This x1000."

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#251 - 2016-10-12 20:44:49 UTC
Vicata Heth wrote:
Toobo wrote:
Ginger Naari wrote:
Toobo wrote:
I said clearly ISK loss is not the major issue. RMTers deserve to get banned and their stuff confiscated, and any ISK given to RMTers can be removed from the game. I totally agree with that. Although I cashed out trillions from IWI, my ISK are safe as they are mine and in my hand and I have never RMTed.

But it seems you don't know how banking system worked in IWI. Bankers banked with their own ISK, within the limit they can afford with their personal ISK gained through legitimate means. But CCP confiscated all ISK from all bankers. It was a blanket punishment and players and bankers who may not have been involved with RMT suffered loss. The amount is not the issue here. It's about whether such blanket punishment is justifiable.



I look forward to the day that they catch up with you too.


You want to bet? ;) I bet you 500 billion ISK that CCP will not find any evidence of me doing RMT. You report me to CCP now and tell them you suspect that I RMT, so they have legitimate reasons to investigate me. Go on. Put your ISK on the line because your words are cheap. I'll use third party like Chribba for this bet, if you accept. This will be based on all in game transactions, so not bannable offense.

You don't have 500b ISK to bet? You don't have confidence enough in your implication that I may be involved with RMT? Do it baby. I'll cover the third party fee in full.

500b bet between you and me. You petition me to CCP for RMT, and if CCP finds me not guilty, I take your 500b. If CCP finds me guilty, you get 500b.

Let me know when you are ready to do that and put something at stake instead of throwing cheap words that don't cost you nothing with absolutely no reason to back it up. I'm ready to put in 500b for this bet any time. Either you take it or chicken out into your little hole and don't talk shite again.


This is a no-win situation for him. If proven you RMT, CCP will punish him too for being affiliated with you.


You are right and wrong. Being affiliated likely won't amount to much. But if there is RMT his account will be banned and the ISK maybe taken...even from Chribba--i.e. if true there is every reason to believe there is no actual payoff.

It's a suckers bet.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ruddger
Vande-lay Industries
#252 - 2016-10-12 20:46:49 UTC
Quote:

I'm sure the Washington State Gambling Commission holds a lot of sway in Reykjavik.

Or do you think the concern is that unless CCP bans these sites, Valve will take EVE off Steam?




CCP has offices and operations in usa and england, and therefor are subject to our laws.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#253 - 2016-10-12 20:50:08 UTC
iam Evingod wrote:
Alan Mathison wrote:
iam Evingod wrote:
So do the changes made to the "Your Account" section no longer allow multiboxing if you are paying for them with PLEX?

"You may establish more than one (1) Account for each copy of the Software licensed. You are however not allowed to play EVE by using more than one account, at the same time, unless you pay a subscription fee for each of the accounts you intend to use for that purpose."

THIS needs clarification. Legally speaking, this means no more 10+ accounts. If that is the case me and my alts are done.


This needs no clarification. It's simple. You may have 10+ Omega accounts online at the same time, but only ONE Alpha account. This prevents the horde of Alpha gankers we're all worried about.


It does need clarification. It specifically states you must pay for each account over the number one. That is the legal definition of what was posted.

Legally, in the United States, where I am based, that means that I must "pay a subscription fee" for each account that I wish to play on if I want to use them "at the same time". There is a very large difference in a "subscription fee" and using an in game item to keep an account in it's "Omega" state.

This needs clarification.


Yes, and CCP specifically accepts PLEX as payment for that subscription fee. So you are free to pay those subscriptions with cash, PLEX, or any combination thereof. What you cannot do is run multiple unpaid accounts at the same time.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#254 - 2016-10-12 20:58:18 UTC
Finally! Absolute top marks CCP, very good move.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Aedon Tekitsu
Mr. Clean Corp..
#255 - 2016-10-12 20:58:55 UTC
Why is this announcement not yet on the news page which gets more visits than the policies page. Another breakdown in communication from CCP to its player base, yet on the main news page there are still links to articles from 2 years ago.
Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#256 - 2016-10-12 21:00:07 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
A few years ago I got so hooked on Somer Blink that I had a net loss of something like 20 billion ISK by the time I finally stopped. I was also really sore about how IWI was able to fund WWB against my (at the time) alliance. And obviously I don't think RMT should be allowed.

I don't think these are adequate reasons to ban third-party ISK gambling sites. I really don't play this game as much as I used to and I haven't used any gambling sites since I quit Blink, but I still think this is a pointless move and it only pisses off players who enjoyed this sort of thing.


Agree with you here.

I played blink, although I never sunk more than I was willing to lose into it (never been a big gambler). But after blink, I stopped gambling and haven't bothered with IWI, etc. Honestly, I love the fact that Goons, the biggest alliance in the game, was essentially made irrelevant by someone who wasn't combat oriented. For me, that is what makes EVE what it is.

I lost nothing as a result of these bans, nor as a result of the somer ban, as I had no significant amount of isk in somer when it was banned, and haven't taken part of the other sites. But I feel banning them was a bad move on CCP's part. This game has very much been made better by third party websites and tools, both of the gambling variety and the utility variety, and I feel this is the beginning of worse things to come in the future, especially with the API nerf known as CREST.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#257 - 2016-10-12 21:06:50 UTC
Aedon Tekitsu wrote:
Why is this announcement not yet on the news page which gets more visits than the policies page. Another breakdown in communication from CCP to its player base, yet on the main news page there are still links to articles from 2 years ago.

It's a dev blog. What more do you want, a snail-mailed postcard with flashing lights?

Considering how quickly dev blogs are posted, linked, and commented about on every EVE-related site out there, nobody can rightly claim to have not had a reasonable chance to hear about it without willfully admitting that they don't pay any attention to the ongoing life of an actively-changing game.

For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#258 - 2016-10-12 21:09:39 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.


This x1000. The more restrictions you place on the innocent/guilty in order to hurt the guilty, the more you hurt the innocent. And it generally has very little, if any effect at all, on the guilty. This is quite evident and verifiable in many areas of the real world today that I won't get into because :politics:. RMT will not simply vanish because gambling websites aren't allowed. The only thing that will happen is that the big RMTers will find a new way to disguise their RMT, and gambling sites will cease to exist for EVE.


Once a gambling site that gambles with virtual and worthless currency (i.e. video game currency which has no real world value) also has RMT it could very well become an actual online gambling website, and since these websites often rely on the games platform, the company providing the game can become complicit and face legal consequences.

So not. Not, "This x1000."


Pretty sure the EULA very clearly states that no in-game content has any real world value, and is the sole property of CCP. Don't see how ISK can be tied to $ because some third parties managed to find a way to convert it to $. Doing so is against CCP's EULA, therefore not condoned by CCP. IANAL but I get the impression this would absolve CCP of any responsibility, provided they make an effort to enforce their EULA.

I've no problem with them banning gambling websites because they've been found to be participating in RMT. My problem is with blanket bans because of a few bad apples.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#259 - 2016-10-12 21:11:52 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Well, I never got involved with the various 3rd party gambling services and I didn't care if they operated using in-game assets / ISK.

However this latest change to the EULA / TOS seems like a knee-jerk reaction than a fully thought out decision based on factual information. Even if it is, the main thing I see happening here is CCP becoming more fascist.

CCP's Eve Online = The New Fatherland.



DMC


Thank you Mr Godwin.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#260 - 2016-10-12 21:13:26 UTC
Vicata Heth wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
A few years ago I got so hooked on Somer Blink that I had a net loss of something like 20 billion ISK by the time I finally stopped. I was also really sore about how IWI was able to fund WWB against my (at the time) alliance. And obviously I don't think RMT should be allowed.

I don't think these are adequate reasons to ban third-party ISK gambling sites. I really don't play this game as much as I used to and I haven't used any gambling sites since I quit Blink, but I still think this is a pointless move and it only pisses off players who enjoyed this sort of thing.


Agree with you here.

I played blink, although I never sunk more than I was willing to lose into it (never been a big gambler). But after blink, I stopped gambling and haven't bothered with IWI, etc. Honestly, I love the fact that Goons, the biggest alliance in the game, was essentially made irrelevant by someone who wasn't combat oriented. For me, that is what makes EVE what it is.

I lost nothing as a result of these bans, nor as a result of the somer ban, as I had no significant amount of isk in somer when it was banned, and haven't taken part of the other sites. But I feel banning them was a bad move on CCP's part. This game has very much been made better by third party websites and tools, both of the gambling variety and the utility variety, and I feel this is the beginning of worse things to come in the future, especially with the API nerf known as CREST.


Yeah, banning RMTers...bad. Roll

As for prohibiting gambling...online gambling is illegal in the U.S. It is illegal to use such sites and to run such sites. If you gambled at Somer Blink while they were RMTing and you lived in the U.S. at that time you probably were engaged in illegal activity. It was small time and went un-noticed, but this is likely the motivation for the prohibition.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online