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Dev Blog: EULA Changes Coming With EVE Online: Ascension

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Toobo
Project Fruit House
#201 - 2016-10-12 19:39:01 UTC
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.

In order for game balance to be restored, all gambling must perish. The game should not be dictated by who has the better out-of-game wealth concentration scheme. Your bloviating about the how casinos "power the community" is no different than Al Capone's soup kitchens.


Although you are a goon and may have personal gripes with IWI, I do agree with you here. But this is a game balance issue to be discussed and phased out in correct steps to bring the game into good state. If CCP said no more gambling as we feel that this affects the game in negative ways, set times, give notices, and let things run its course for the improvement of the game, heck, I can accept that and say bye bye to ISK gambling.

What's better for the game is good for all, so if CCP feels that banning ISK gambling is good for the game and the community concurs on that, fair enough. But my gripe is with the way handled this and pretty much screwed loads of people who did not break EULA in any ways.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#202 - 2016-10-12 19:39:29 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.

In order for game balance to be restored, all gambling must perish. The game should not be dictated by who has the better out-of-game wealth concentration scheme. Your bloviating about the how casinos "power the community" is no different than Al Capone's soup kitchens.

says the group that coined 'there is no community thats not our community'


Says the guy who benefited from IWI ISK....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#203 - 2016-10-12 19:39:45 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Let's see...Somer Blink, RMTing. IWI, RMTing. EVE Cassino, multiple EULA violations...we aren't starting to see a pattern here?

And never mind, that and with RMT and gambling you could get State and Federal government agencies looking at you....

eve-bet was fine o.o
no RMT


How big are they?

And you are ignoring the problems that once RL money becomes involved and if it is considered actual online gambling...then you might be in some legal difficulties.

http://www.pcgamer.com/state-regulator-orders-valve-to-halt-csgo-skin-gambling-through-steam/

Oh look...posted 7 days ago.

once rl money becomes involved. yeah no argument thats when its crossed the line

but far as i know, eve-bet has just been isk and in game items.



heck if CCP made an in game "bet pool" for the AT i'd be perfectly happy (freeport ftw. though i expect pandemic will win <.<)
Arrendis
TK Corp
#204 - 2016-10-12 19:40:11 UTC
BTW, Falcon: since IWI's been shut down for operation and there's only 1 character in the corp—and he's banned—maybe you guys should consider closing that corp? People are still pouring ISK into it.
Jin Kugu
Make Luv Not War
Goonswarm Federation
#205 - 2016-10-12 19:40:27 UTC
DaOpa wrote:
Longest EVE Online streamer, long time fansite / guide creator for EVE. I never needed nor took ISK from any gambling 3rd party to do what I do.


DaOpa is a cool dude and has been streaming big events in eve for as long as I can remember. If he can do that I'm sure the community will be fine without big casino bucks.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#206 - 2016-10-12 19:40:34 UTC
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Let's see...Somer Blink, RMTing. IWI, RMTing. EVE Cassino, multiple EULA violations...we aren't starting to see a pattern here?

And never mind, that and with RMT and gambling you could get State and Federal government agencies looking at you....

eve-bet was fine o.o
no RMT


That we know of....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#207 - 2016-10-12 19:41:57 UTC
Aurure wrote:
Toobo wrote:
The wordings and application of this with such brute force is so wishy-washy and not well defined/clear that so many casual lol things can fall into this bannable category.

Let's say we have off line meet up in a pub. . We do spin the bottle and the winner gets a PLEX in game. That's game of chance and gambling?

Let's say we do in-corp lucky draw (which many corps do), but the 'draw' is performed by an out of game third party (e.g. Chribba's dice that used to be popular), then it's a third party using 'chance' mechanic to award 'winner' with 'in game asset/currency'.

This is truly WTF. We had sell order forum lotteries years ago using third party draw tools that people could trust, such as Chribba's dice or whatever other reputable RNG site was at the time.

All those things would be against EULA now right?



Bottlespinning: You're not gambling, as you don't have buy ins. It's also not third party.

In-Corp Lucky Draw: Chribba might give you the diceroll, but he isn't brokering the buyins and payouts. So, no third partying.


If you want to go in to details. I'm happy to play.

For bottle spinning - what if the meet up required you to give ISK to the event organiser to get 'ticket' to participate in the meet up where lucky draws and chance based events will take place - then you are 'buying in' the participation to such event isn't it?

For Chribba's dice (sorry to mention you Chribba but this is one everyone knows, I know you are clean), what if he offered third party service to hold the prize isk/asset for the lucky draw event (this is actually how it used to be at times with old sell order forum lottos, that there was a third party involved holding the lotto prize) - then basically the mechanism is same as what CCP banned with EULA now.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#208 - 2016-10-12 19:42:16 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.

In order for game balance to be restored, all gambling must perish. The game should not be dictated by who has the better out-of-game wealth concentration scheme. Your bloviating about the how casinos "power the community" is no different than Al Capone's soup kitchens.

says the group that coined 'there is no community thats not our community'

This is kind of a weird tack to take, considering I didn't mention the existence of or lack of existence of any community at all.

Your soup kitchen closures are an acceptable casualty. The faucet is closed. Display some adaptability.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Harrigan VonStudly
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#209 - 2016-10-12 19:43:48 UTC
Eve players blogged, podcasted, created sites for news, etc... for the love of the game. For the awesomeness that the Eve universe allowed. The players powered the game and the game powered the players. It should not be 3rd party monies, gifts, promises that power the community.

If a streamer, or podcast, or blog is worthy out of the hard work of those inputting on them then take donations and survive on your own. Just because someone streams, or whatever, and draws attention to potential new players and the game doesn't auto-qualify them to be compensated by a 3rd party. Or CCP for that matter.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#210 - 2016-10-12 19:43:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Let's see...Somer Blink, RMTing. IWI, RMTing. EVE Cassino, multiple EULA violations...we aren't starting to see a pattern here?

And never mind, that and with RMT and gambling you could get State and Federal government agencies looking at you....

eve-bet was fine o.o
no RMT


How big are they?

And you are ignoring the problems that once RL money becomes involved and if it is considered actual online gambling...then you might be in some legal difficulties.

http://www.pcgamer.com/state-regulator-orders-valve-to-halt-csgo-skin-gambling-through-steam/

Oh look...posted 7 days ago.

once rl money becomes involved. yeah no argument thats when its crossed the line

but far as i know, eve-bet has just been isk and in game items.



heck if CCP made an in game "bet pool" for the AT i'd be perfectly happy (freeport ftw. though i expect pandemic will win <.<)


As far as you know. So CCP is to...what? Audit these guys now too?

And for what? Some nebulous benefit that simply cannot be quantified?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Aspen Neva
#211 - 2016-10-12 19:49:28 UTC
iam Evingod wrote:
So do the changes made to the "Your Account" section no longer allow multiboxing if you are paying for them with PLEX?

"You may establish more than one (1) Account for each copy of the Software licensed. You are however not allowed to play EVE by using more than one account, at the same time, unless you pay a subscription fee for each of the accounts you intend to use for that purpose."

THIS needs clarification. Legally speaking, this means no more 10+ accounts. If that is the case me and my alts are done.


Only regarding alpha clone.

With new EULA you can only have 1 alpha, or any numbers of beta.
So your case you can multibox 10 beta and have an extra alpha. or 11 beta and no alpha.

Beta meaning you pay a subscription
Black Pedro
Mine.
#212 - 2016-10-12 19:51:12 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Look, I'm pretty sure most people at CCP don't care if you want to gamble with ISK. And they might be fine with some gambling sites in an ideal world.

But we don't live in an ideal world. So CCP just decided to chuck the whole thing into the waste bin to be done with it and avoid any hassles that could involve IRL lawyers and costs.
Indeed. Concerns of RMT and the in-game politics aside, this decision was likely heavily informed by recent legal events involving virtual assets and gambling outside of CCPs control.

The writing was on the wall, and lawyers being lawyers, they likely advised CCP to put gambling sites at arms length as soon as feasible. A finding of RMT by the security team sealed the deal and we get this change now.

Sure this sucks for groups and players funded by gambling profits, but it could not be allowed to continue, both to protect CCP from legal action and to stop an apparently rampant RMT operation. There was no choice really.

Frankly, it is a little concerning to me to see so many people coming out of the woodwork to defend such damaging EULA breaking behaviour. No, the self-interest is to be expected, but rather the magnitude of it. I didn't realize how many pies the casinos had their fingers in, and that alone shows how much power a few players actually had and suggests it might have been a problem.

Well whatever, this era is now past. Chin up fellow players, a new age of Ascension is fast approaching. I have no doubt that after a short period of upheaval, Eve will get along just fine without the space casinos.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#213 - 2016-10-12 19:51:40 UTC
ccp please clarify this 90 day purge. because im gonna be so pissed if youre saying my loyalty for the past 13 years means nothing and all my time and hard work can be just deleted cos i took a break then wtf you have just killed eve. why would you even do this. there shoud be like a sp limit of say 15 mill or soemthing

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#214 - 2016-10-12 19:53:02 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Bank run in 3...2...1...


They run to it, finding nothing but a crater and broken capsuleer shells mutilated beyond recognition.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#215 - 2016-10-12 19:53:19 UTC
Toobo wrote:

If you want to go in to details. I'm happy to play.

For bottle spinning - what if the meet up required you to give ISK to the event organiser to get 'ticket' to participate in the meet up where lucky draws and chance based events will take place - then you are 'buying in' the participation to such event isn't it?

For Chribba's dice (sorry to mention you Chribba but this is one everyone knows, I know you are clean), what if he offered third party service to hold the prize isk/asset for the lucky draw event (this is actually how it used to be at times with old sell order forum lottos, that there was a third party involved holding the lotto prize) - then basically the mechanism is same as what CCP banned with EULA now.


Stop reading "third party" as if it applies to third party services in game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Aurure
some random local shitlords
#216 - 2016-10-12 19:53:32 UTC
Toobo wrote:
Aurure wrote:
Toobo wrote:
The wordings and application of this with such brute force is so wishy-washy and not well defined/clear that so many casual lol things can fall into this bannable category.

Let's say we have off line meet up in a pub. . We do spin the bottle and the winner gets a PLEX in game. That's game of chance and gambling?

Let's say we do in-corp lucky draw (which many corps do), but the 'draw' is performed by an out of game third party (e.g. Chribba's dice that used to be popular), then it's a third party using 'chance' mechanic to award 'winner' with 'in game asset/currency'.

This is truly WTF. We had sell order forum lotteries years ago using third party draw tools that people could trust, such as Chribba's dice or whatever other reputable RNG site was at the time.

All those things would be against EULA now right?



Bottlespinning: You're not gambling, as you don't have buy ins. It's also not third party.

In-Corp Lucky Draw: Chribba might give you the diceroll, but he isn't brokering the buyins and payouts. So, no third partying.


If you want to go in to details. I'm happy to play.

For bottle spinning - what if the meet up required you to give ISK to the event organiser to get 'ticket' to participate in the meet up where lucky draws and chance based events will take place - then you are 'buying in' the participation to such event isn't it?

For Chribba's dice (sorry to mention you Chribba but this is one everyone knows, I know you are clean), what if he offered third party service to hold the prize isk/asset for the lucky draw event (this is actually how it used to be at times with old sell order forum lottos, that there was a third party involved holding the lotto prize) - then basically the mechanism is same as what CCP banned with EULA now.



Go ask CCP what a third party is, and make them define it. Then you will have answers to every question regarding third parties you'll ever have.

Nonetheless, glad these ISK making schemes are going to be a thing of the past.
Minerva Arbosa
Spatial Forces
Warped Intentions
#217 - 2016-10-12 19:53:40 UTC
Elliott Spitzer wrote:
Toobo wrote:
If Iron is flagged as RMT (I have no reason to accuse him as such, but since they are doing blanket punishment on all involved, just for the virtue of involvement, not actual evidence of involvement) - then will CCP remove his SP too? Which was bought using ISK he made from IWI, which is now all of sudden judged to be involved with RMT, including down to Bankers who just got hired a few weeks ago?

WTF is going on seriously.


What? They are doing this because there is a massive amount of evidence involved.


There is no evidence as they can just do what they want why they want to. If there was evidence, then CCP would release reports on big items such as this and explain in wording how they found the link between RMT and IWI. No report, no evidence. Goes back to just because they wanted to.
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#218 - 2016-10-12 19:54:30 UTC
Chribba wrote:
I'm interpreting this as running external sites that deals with ISK/items etc is prohibited.

Is me securing supercap trades against the rules?

Is running a lottery for a titan, using the "Sell Orders" forum against the rules?

Is running an auction for a titan, using the "Sell Orders" forum against the rules?

/c



it says operated by THIRD PARTIES - sell orders aint thrid party

You may not use, transfer or assign any game assets for games of chance operated by third parties. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.


All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit
michael chasseur
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2016-10-12 19:54:52 UTC
i've never gambled but i think it's funny that CCP bans all the things that do their job better, or make light of how terrible their own company is
Morrow Disca
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#220 - 2016-10-12 19:57:22 UTC
Minerva Arbosa wrote:
Elliott Spitzer wrote:
Toobo wrote:
If Iron is flagged as RMT (I have no reason to accuse him as such, but since they are doing blanket punishment on all involved, just for the virtue of involvement, not actual evidence of involvement) - then will CCP remove his SP too? Which was bought using ISK he made from IWI, which is now all of sudden judged to be involved with RMT, including down to Bankers who just got hired a few weeks ago?

WTF is going on seriously.


What? They are doing this because there is a massive amount of evidence involved.


There is no evidence as they can just do what they want why they want to. If there was evidence, then CCP would release reports on big items such as this and explain in wording how they found the link between RMT and IWI. No report, no evidence. Goes back to just because they wanted to.


I also heard that jet fuel can't melt steel beams.