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Dev Blog: EULA Changes Coming With EVE Online: Ascension

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Judaa K'Marr
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#181 - 2016-10-12 19:15:27 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

Look, I'm pretty sure most people at CCP don't care if you want to gamble with ISK. And they might be fine with some gambling sites in an ideal world.

But we don't live in an ideal world. So CCP just decided to chuck the whole thing into the waste bin to be done with it and avoid any hassles that could involve IRL lawyers and costs.


This tbh.

Governments have started calling time on it. CCP choice was to ban it now, or ban it later when engulfed in legal actions. If your fave stream or event got shut down, well, go and talk to your local politician about it.
DaOpa
Static Corp
#182 - 2016-10-12 19:16:14 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Good afternoon capsuleers!

Today we're here to announce some changes to the EVE Online EULA that are coming with the launch of EVE Online: Ascension.

You can read all about them in this Dev Blog, which includes a handy red-lined version of the new EULA that will come into effect on Tuesday, November 8th, 2016.


Updates & Clarifications:

The 90 day clause:

Our policy on inactive accounts has not changed, we have simply shortened the notice period from six months to three months due to a potentially higher volume of account creation.


So your own media is sparse, who do you suggest pays the writers that generate interest in your game now? Who pays the streamers that give newer players a glimpse of a game they might get hooked on?



Longest EVE Online streamer, long time fansite / guide creator for EVE. I never needed nor took ISK from any gambling 3rd party to do what I do.

LP Stores DB - WH List / Systems - Live Streamer
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#183 - 2016-10-12 19:18:16 UTC
Dabigredboat wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Good afternoon capsuleers!

Today we're here to announce some changes to the EVE Online EULA that are coming with the launch of EVE Online: Ascension.

You can read all about them in this Dev Blog, which includes a handy red-lined version of the new EULA that will come into effect on Tuesday, November 8th, 2016.


Updates & Clarifications:

The 90 day clause:

Our policy on inactive accounts has not changed, we have simply shortened the notice period from six months to three months due to a potentially higher volume of account creation.


Not going to read through all this to see if anybody had called you guys out on it but here:

So to be clear, after years of free publicity as these sites sponsored places like EN24, CZ, alllllllll the podcasts that got you attention on twitch and gaming sites, after they carry your tournament this year for the first bit and do an arguably better job than you yourself have this year, after all that, you're just going to take a heaving dump on their chest and outright shut them down because of .........

What a great way to thank your playerbase for its years of service keeping your company afloat.


So your own media is sparse, who do you suggest pays the writers that generate interest in your game now? Who pays the streamers that give newer players a glimpse of a game they might get hooked on?

Your community held you up when you were down, and your response to that is to purposely gut everything that currently generates content from the player base.


EDIT: Not to mention, prohibition has literally never worked, people will still gamble.


TMC did all of the above mentioned.

Without RMTing it all.

I never took money from IWI. Was never offered the money. Was never given money to stream (in-game money). I provided on average the MOST views for CCP and Twitch for eve online (average for 9 months was 900 viewers), almost triple that of other streamers like Ironbank.


So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
MissBolyai
ElitistOps
Deepwater Hooligans
#184 - 2016-10-12 19:18:41 UTC
DaOpa wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Good afternoon capsuleers!

Today we're here to announce some changes to the EVE Online EULA that are coming with the launch of EVE Online: Ascension.

You can read all about them in this Dev Blog, which includes a handy red-lined version of the new EULA that will come into effect on Tuesday, November 8th, 2016.


Updates & Clarifications:

The 90 day clause:

Our policy on inactive accounts has not changed, we have simply shortened the notice period from six months to three months due to a potentially higher volume of account creation.


So your own media is sparse, who do you suggest pays the writers that generate interest in your game now? Who pays the streamers that give newer players a glimpse of a game they might get hooked on?



Longest EVE Online streamer, long time fansite / guide creator for EVE. I never needed nor took ISK from any gambling 3rd party to do what I do.

never heard of you
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#185 - 2016-10-12 19:18:45 UTC
F*ck yea. Permaban all the gamblers!
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#186 - 2016-10-12 19:19:47 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Toobo wrote:
Jew Jew Binks wrote:
Kaoraku Shayiskhun wrote:
Toobo wrote:
Chribba's onto something here. There are many 'services' people pay for with ISK, such as TS hosting and websites, etc. What's up with all those?


You really can't read? Paying ISK for a service (especially for an ingame service) is not a gambling. Paying ISK for hosting a website not a gambling either.


it's RMT


Exactly. It is exchange of RL work/material/server cost etc for ISK. Only difference is that there is no 'chance based gambling element' involved. IWI was said to be shut down not because it's a gambling site, but because of RMT. So it's a legit question to ask at this point what they mean by RMT. The whole revised EULA is so hastily worded and not clear on many issues, evndienced by lots of people here asking about scenarios whether that would be ok or not in the new EULA.


WTF...seriously, there is s a pretty clear definition of RMT, they found a way to exchange ISK for RL currency. That's it.


So RMT is only for those that buy 'currency' with ISK? So if I bought service/thing of RL money value using ISK, but no currency exchange took place, that is not RMT?

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#187 - 2016-10-12 19:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Winter Archipelago
All the hand-wringing and attempts at rules-lawyering over the exact wording of the new language to make it work with the upcoming Alpha clones change is as humorous as it is pitiable. I don't know whether I should say "never change" or "WTF?" due to the humor over the lengths some people will go to try to twist things.

And Hell, the twisting and writhing and attempts at rules-lawyering over what is and is not RMT, and who is and should not be affect, and everything surrounding it, sits quite comfortably in the same basket.

For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#188 - 2016-10-12 19:25:05 UTC
The wordings and application of this with such brute force is so wishy-washy and not well defined/clear that so many casual lol things can fall into this bannable category.

Let's say we have off line meet up in a pub. . We do spin the bottle and the winner gets a PLEX in game. That's game of chance and gambling?

Let's say we do in-corp lucky draw (which many corps do), but the 'draw' is performed by an out of game third party (e.g. Chribba's dice that used to be popular), then it's a third party using 'chance' mechanic to award 'winner' with 'in game asset/currency'.

This is truly WTF. We had sell order forum lotteries years ago using third party draw tools that people could trust, such as Chribba's dice or whatever other reputable RNG site was at the time.

All those things would be against EULA now right?

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#189 - 2016-10-12 19:31:26 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.

In order for game balance to be restored, all gambling must perish. The game should not be dictated by who has the better out-of-game wealth concentration scheme. Your bloviating about the how casinos "power the community" is no different than Al Capone's soup kitchens.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#190 - 2016-10-12 19:32:16 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Dabigredboat wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Good afternoon capsuleers!

Today we're here to announce some changes to the EVE Online EULA that are coming with the launch of EVE Online: Ascension.

You can read all about them in this Dev Blog, which includes a handy red-lined version of the new EULA that will come into effect on Tuesday, November 8th, 2016.


Updates & Clarifications:

The 90 day clause:

Our policy on inactive accounts has not changed, we have simply shortened the notice period from six months to three months due to a potentially higher volume of account creation.


Not going to read through all this to see if anybody had called you guys out on it but here:

So to be clear, after years of free publicity as these sites sponsored places like EN24, CZ, alllllllll the podcasts that got you attention on twitch and gaming sites, after they carry your tournament this year for the first bit and do an arguably better job than you yourself have this year, after all that, you're just going to take a heaving dump on their chest and outright shut them down because of .........

What a great way to thank your playerbase for its years of service keeping your company afloat.


So your own media is sparse, who do you suggest pays the writers that generate interest in your game now? Who pays the streamers that give newer players a glimpse of a game they might get hooked on?

Your community held you up when you were down, and your response to that is to purposely gut everything that currently generates content from the player base.


EDIT: Not to mention, prohibition has literally never worked, people will still gamble.


TMC did all of the above mentioned.

Without RMTing it all.

I never took money from IWI. Was never offered the money. Was never given money to stream (in-game money). I provided on average the MOST views for CCP and Twitch for eve online (average for 9 months was 900 viewers), almost triple that of other streamers like Ironbank.


So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.


Let's see...Somer Blink, RMTing. IWI, RMTing. EVE Cassino, multiple EULA violations...we aren't starting to see a pattern here?

And never mind, that and with RMT and gambling you could get State and Federal government agencies looking at you....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#191 - 2016-10-12 19:32:53 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
All the hand-wringing and attempts at rules-lawyering over the exact wording of the new language to make it work with the upcoming Alpha clones change is as humorous as it is pitiable. I don't know whether I should say "never change" or "WTF?" due to the humor over the lengths some people will go to try to twist things.

And Hell, the twisting and writhing and attempts at rules-lawyering over what is and is not RMT, and who is and should not be affect, and everything surrounding it, sits quite comfortably in the same basket.


I don't agree with you here. Twisting & writhing? We are talking about massive change in EULA here that affected thousands of players and people lost in game assets and the organisation that sponsored the biggest in game campaign in recent years got disbanded forcefully by GM and all the members of that organisations had their ISK removed from wallet in a blanket treatment regardless of whether they, as individual, broke any EULA or not.

It is legitimate to ask what CCP exactly means by RMT and gambling and third party trading/events with out of game RNG element. Especially so now that they have decided to take an unconsulted action with far reaching game consequences without clearly defining how their new EULA works and is applied.

Even if you are not involved with RMT or gambling or IWI or whatever, this is not something players should shrug and accept and move on. For me this shakes my very trust on CCP which I've kept strong for almost a decade through ups and downs. That they make such decisions and inact on it so recklessly without being clear about their own definitions to the player base.

The amounts of questions and theoretical examples thrown here is not 'twisting and writhing'. These are legitimate questions that should be raised and answered clearly because CCP took such big action without being clear about the basis of such actions, and its future implications to the game.

I loved IWI personally and gained a lot from it, both ISK wise and experience wise. But even if I didn't gamble there, I would not be happy with this.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#192 - 2016-10-12 19:33:12 UTC
Toobo wrote:
The wordings and application of this with such brute force is so wishy-washy and not well defined/clear that so many casual lol things can fall into this bannable category.

Let's say we have off line meet up in a pub. . We do spin the bottle and the winner gets a PLEX in game. That's game of chance and gambling?

Let's say we do in-corp lucky draw (which many corps do), but the 'draw' is performed by an out of game third party (e.g. Chribba's dice that used to be popular), then it's a third party using 'chance' mechanic to award 'winner' with 'in game asset/currency'.

This is truly WTF. We had sell order forum lotteries years ago using third party draw tools that people could trust, such as Chribba's dice or whatever other reputable RNG site was at the time.

All those things would be against EULA now right?


Pretty much. Safe bet you can thank the people suing Valve for triggering the legal team at CCP. Or thank the UK Gambling Commission's recent white paper on the subject of gambling and virtual currencies.
Aurure
some random local shitlords
#193 - 2016-10-12 19:33:30 UTC
Toobo wrote:
The wordings and application of this with such brute force is so wishy-washy and not well defined/clear that so many casual lol things can fall into this bannable category.

Let's say we have off line meet up in a pub. . We do spin the bottle and the winner gets a PLEX in game. That's game of chance and gambling?

Let's say we do in-corp lucky draw (which many corps do), but the 'draw' is performed by an out of game third party (e.g. Chribba's dice that used to be popular), then it's a third party using 'chance' mechanic to award 'winner' with 'in game asset/currency'.

This is truly WTF. We had sell order forum lotteries years ago using third party draw tools that people could trust, such as Chribba's dice or whatever other reputable RNG site was at the time.

All those things would be against EULA now right?



Bottlespinning: You're not gambling, as you don't have buy ins. It's also not third party.

In-Corp Lucky Draw: Chribba might give you the diceroll, but he isn't brokering the buyins and payouts. So, no third partying.
Judaa K'Marr
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#194 - 2016-10-12 19:33:38 UTC
Toobo wrote:
The wordings and application of this with such brute force is so wishy-washy and not well defined/clear that so many casual lol things can fall into this bannable category.

Let's say we have off line meet up in a pub. . We do spin the bottle and the winner gets a PLEX in game. That's game of chance and gambling?

Let's say we do in-corp lucky draw (which many corps do), but the 'draw' is performed by an out of game third party (e.g. Chribba's dice that used to be popular), then it's a third party using 'chance' mechanic to award 'winner' with 'in game asset/currency'.

This is truly WTF. We had sell order forum lotteries years ago using third party draw tools that people could trust, such as Chribba's dice or whatever other reputable RNG site was at the time.

All those things would be against EULA now right?


Unlikely that they will hunt down every corp raffle, they wouldn't have the resources for a start. Like account sharing that goes on constantly, but they are not caring about it.

Turn it into an industrial scale operation with 100000s of xfers, someone will take notice.
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#195 - 2016-10-12 19:33:44 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

Let's see...Somer Blink, RMTing. IWI, RMTing. EVE Cassino, multiple EULA violations...we aren't starting to see a pattern here?

And never mind, that and with RMT and gambling you could get State and Federal government agencies looking at you....

eve-bet was fine o.o
no RMT
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#196 - 2016-10-12 19:34:45 UTC
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.

In order for game balance to be restored, all gambling must perish. The game should not be dictated by who has the better out-of-game wealth concentration scheme. Your bloviating about the how casinos "power the community" is no different than Al Capone's soup kitchens.


Was just thinking about that.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dabigredboat
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#197 - 2016-10-12 19:36:23 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Dabigredboat wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Good afternoon capsuleers!

Today we're here to announce some changes to the EVE Online EULA that are coming with the launch of EVE Online: Ascension.

You can read all about them in this Dev Blog, which includes a handy red-lined version of the new EULA that will come into effect on Tuesday, November 8th, 2016.


Updates & Clarifications:

The 90 day clause:

Our policy on inactive accounts has not changed, we have simply shortened the notice period from six months to three months due to a potentially higher volume of account creation.


Not going to read through all this to see if anybody had called you guys out on it but here:

So to be clear, after years of free publicity as these sites sponsored places like EN24, CZ, alllllllll the podcasts that got you attention on twitch and gaming sites, after they carry your tournament this year for the first bit and do an arguably better job than you yourself have this year, after all that, you're just going to take a heaving dump on their chest and outright shut them down because of .........

What a great way to thank your playerbase for its years of service keeping your company afloat.


So your own media is sparse, who do you suggest pays the writers that generate interest in your game now? Who pays the streamers that give newer players a glimpse of a game they might get hooked on?

Your community held you up when you were down, and your response to that is to purposely gut everything that currently generates content from the player base.


EDIT: Not to mention, prohibition has literally never worked, people will still gamble.


TMC did all of the above mentioned.

Without RMTing it all.

I never took money from IWI. Was never offered the money. Was never given money to stream (in-game money). I provided on average the MOST views for CCP and Twitch for eve online (average for 9 months was 900 viewers), almost triple that of other streamers like Ironbank.


So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.


No. Remove them all. Make your isk in the game, not out of the game, that simple.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#198 - 2016-10-12 19:36:43 UTC
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.

In order for game balance to be restored, all gambling must perish. The game should not be dictated by who has the better out-of-game wealth concentration scheme. Your bloviating about the how casinos "power the community" is no different than Al Capone's soup kitchens.

says the group that coined 'there is no community thats not our community'

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#199 - 2016-10-12 19:36:48 UTC
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Let's see...Somer Blink, RMTing. IWI, RMTing. EVE Cassino, multiple EULA violations...we aren't starting to see a pattern here?

And never mind, that and with RMT and gambling you could get State and Federal government agencies looking at you....

eve-bet was fine o.o
no RMT


How big are they?

And you are ignoring the problems that once RL money becomes involved and if it is considered actual online gambling...then you might be in some legal difficulties.

http://www.pcgamer.com/state-regulator-orders-valve-to-halt-csgo-skin-gambling-through-steam/

Oh look...posted 7 days ago.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#200 - 2016-10-12 19:38:51 UTC
Toobo wrote:
Ginger Naari wrote:
Toobo wrote:
I said clearly ISK loss is not the major issue. RMTers deserve to get banned and their stuff confiscated, and any ISK given to RMTers can be removed from the game. I totally agree with that. Although I cashed out trillions from IWI, my ISK are safe as they are mine and in my hand and I have never RMTed.

But it seems you don't know how banking system worked in IWI. Bankers banked with their own ISK, within the limit they can afford with their personal ISK gained through legitimate means. But CCP confiscated all ISK from all bankers. It was a blanket punishment and players and bankers who may not have been involved with RMT suffered loss. The amount is not the issue here. It's about whether such blanket punishment is justifiable.



I look forward to the day that they catch up with you too.


You want to bet? ;) I bet you 500 billion ISK that CCP will not find any evidence of me doing RMT. You report me to CCP now and tell them you suspect that I RMT, so they have legitimate reasons to investigate me. Go on. Put your ISK on the line because your words are cheap. I'll use third party like Chribba for this bet, if you accept. This will be based on all in game transactions, so not bannable offense.

You don't have 500b ISK to bet? You don't have confidence enough in your implication that I may be involved with RMT? Do it baby. I'll cover the third party fee in full.

500b bet between you and me. You petition me to CCP for RMT, and if CCP finds me not guilty, I take your 500b. If CCP finds me guilty, you get 500b.

Let me know when you are ready to do that and put something at stake instead of throwing cheap words that don't cost you nothing with absolutely no reason to back it up. I'm ready to put in 500b for this bet any time. Either you take it or chicken out into your little hole and don't talk shite again.




"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" is a quotation from the c. 1600 play Hamlet by William Shakespeare. It has been used as a figure of speech, in various phrasings, to describe someone's overly frequent and vehement attempts to convince others of some matter of which the opposite is true, thereby making themselves appear defensive and insincere.[not verified in body] In rhetorical terms, the phrase can be thought of as indicating an unintentional apophasis—where the speaker who "protests too much" in favor of some assertion puts into others' minds the idea that the assertion is false, something that they may not have considered before