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Dev Blog: EULA Changes Coming With EVE Online: Ascension

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Robin Wren
Attack Kittens
#121 - 2016-10-12 17:58:24 UTC
It's a shame that eve bet which just did a fantastic job with the at streaming is also going to be nuked from orbit. If this is a knee jerk reaction to the mess happening over cs:go then it makes some sense, if this is simply about rmt then surely you are actually helping the people that want to destroy our game win.... Just my point of view on things.

We really need a black and white clarification on what is covered by games of chance.

Skill games? (they all involve an element of chance it seems)
Third party services? (there is a chance 3rd party could walk, although it's low)
Hosting services?
Lotteries? (the big eve lottery being yet another victim)

Rip sandbox
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
#122 - 2016-10-12 17:59:27 UTC
Hmm, tradehub network might not be happening now.
Actually I have nothing of value to add and just want to have a post in this thread. Big smile
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#123 - 2016-10-12 18:01:08 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Andre Vauban wrote:
Can you elaborate on
"You may establish more than one (1) Account for each copy of the Software licensed. You are however not allowed to play EVE by using more than one account at the same time, unless you pay a subscription fee for the Software"?

How does this relate to alpha and omega's? It is pretty clear that CCP will write some code to prevent another Eve client from being launched whenver an alpha account is running. How does this relate to VMs and containers?

If I run the second Eve account in a container or VM to circumvent the restriction, is that a EULA violation?

If so, what if I run the second Eve account on another PC, is that a EULA violation?

If so, what if I run the second Eve account on another PC with a different public IP than the first account, is that a EULA violation?

If so, what if I run the second Eve account on another PC and place it in front of a pet, is that a EULA violation?

If so, what if I run the second Eve account on another PC and place it in front of a sleeping baby, is that a EULA violation?

If so, what if I run the second Eve account on another PC and place it in front of a spouse who really isn't playing EVE, is that a EULA violation?


I don't mean to be annoying, but people are going to push this ability to multibox alpha's as far as they can just like they did with multi-input.

These are really good questions.
I have the same questions regarding VM and another physical machine (PC).



Good idea...posting your ideas about violating the EULA. I'm sure nothing bad will come of this.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Erika Mizune
Lucifer's Hammer
A Band Apart.
#124 - 2016-10-12 18:02:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Erika Mizune
Hesod Adee wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

From what I can tell, IWI and casino were running a RMT operation while EVEbet were legit. So EVEbet gets time to get its **** in order before shutting down while the other two got nuked.

Coupled with this is the whole steam getting sued for in game gambling so CCP are pulling the plug before something stupid happens and some American lawyer goes after them.


Casino wasn't involved in RMT. They were banned for breaking a different rule. From the dev blog:

Quote:
The third party service EVE Casino has been shut down in game, and all ISK and assets have been confiscated after multiple and sustained breaches of our Developer License Agreement. Permanent account suspensions have been issued against those involved.


But they were still banned for doing something that was against the rules at the time they did it.


Even if so, the isk they took from the bankers on Eve Casino was their own isk that they earned and had never touched the casino 'floor' because it wasn't even open yet - why did they take their isk?

Also it was pretty vague on the 'developer tos' violation.

Former DJ & Manager of Eve Radio | Blog | Sounds of New Eden | Twitch | Twitter
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#125 - 2016-10-12 18:06:27 UTC
Robin Wren wrote:
It's a shame that eve bet which just did a fantastic job with the at streaming is also going to be nuked from orbit. If this is a knee jerk reaction to the mess happening over cs:go then it makes some sense, if this is simply about rmt then surely you are actually helping the people that want to destroy our game win.... Just my point of view on things.

We really need a black and white clarification on what is covered by games of chance.

Skill games? (they all involve an element of chance it seems)
Third party services? (there is a chance 3rd party could walk, although it's low)
Hosting services?
Lotteries? (the big eve lottery being yet another victim)

Rip sandbox


Look, betting on things like "games of skill" is still gambling. The bookies/bookmakers typically set up algorithms to calculate the odds based on people's betting patterns. There is considerable literature on this and they all rely on probability theory...just as if you discussing roulette or craps. The only significant difference is that the probabilities over say a sports game are subjective probabilities.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kaoraku Shayiskhun
Simple Designs
#126 - 2016-10-12 18:07:13 UTC
Toobo wrote:
Chribba's onto something here. There are many 'services' people pay for with ISK, such as TS hosting and websites, etc. What's up with all those?


You really can't read? Paying ISK for a service (especially for an ingame service) is not a gambling. Paying ISK for hosting a website not a gambling either.

I wonder why anybody surprised. Iron was against the rules for long time, couse CCP already said these things only allowed if everybody have the same chance for winning ingame things. Raffles for those only, who payed for him is brake this rule. CCP should step this much earlier.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2016-10-12 18:07:15 UTC
Erika Mizune wrote:
Hesod Adee wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

From what I can tell, IWI and casino were running a RMT operation while EVEbet were legit. So EVEbet gets time to get its **** in order before shutting down while the other two got nuked.

Coupled with this is the whole steam getting sued for in game gambling so CCP are pulling the plug before something stupid happens and some American lawyer goes after them.


Casino wasn't involved in RMT. They were banned for breaking a different rule. From the dev blog:

Quote:
The third party service EVE Casino has been shut down in game, and all ISK and assets have been confiscated after multiple and sustained breaches of our Developer License Agreement. Permanent account suspensions have been issued against those involved.


But they were still banned for doing something that was against the rules at the time they did it.


Even if so, the isk they took from the bankers on Eve Casino was their own isk that they earned and had never touched the casino 'floor' because it wasn't even open yet - why did they take their isk?

Also it was pretty vague on the 'developer tos' violation.


Because CCP can and you agreed to that when you agreed to the EULA.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#128 - 2016-10-12 18:08:47 UTC
Erika Mizune wrote:
Hesod Adee wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

From what I can tell, IWI and casino were running a RMT operation while EVEbet were legit. So EVEbet gets time to get its **** in order before shutting down while the other two got nuked.

Coupled with this is the whole steam getting sued for in game gambling so CCP are pulling the plug before something stupid happens and some American lawyer goes after them.


Casino wasn't involved in RMT. They were banned for breaking a different rule. From the dev blog:

Quote:
The third party service EVE Casino has been shut down in game, and all ISK and assets have been confiscated after multiple and sustained breaches of our Developer License Agreement. Permanent account suspensions have been issued against those involved.


But they were still banned for doing something that was against the rules at the time they did it.


Even if so, the isk they took from the bankers on Eve Casino was their own isk that they earned and had never touched the casino 'floor' because it wasn't even open yet - why did they take their isk?

Also it was pretty vague on the 'developer tos' violation.



Word on the street is a violation of the TOS for use of the SSO and API for the gambling site. Can't verify though as I'm not a developer.
Kaoraku Shayiskhun
Simple Designs
#129 - 2016-10-12 18:08:53 UTC
Erika Mizune wrote:
[quote=Hesod Adee][quote=baltec1]
Even if so, the isk they took from the bankers on Eve Casino was their own isk that they earned and had never touched the casino 'floor' because it wasn't even open yet - why did they take their isk?

Also it was pretty vague on the 'developer tos' violation.


I think they wanted to punish them...
Robin Wren
Attack Kittens
#130 - 2016-10-12 18:09:57 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Robin Wren wrote:
It's a shame that eve bet which just did a fantastic job with the at streaming is also going to be nuked from orbit. If this is a knee jerk reaction to the mess happening over cs:go then it makes some sense, if this is simply about rmt then surely you are actually helping the people that want to destroy our game win.... Just my point of view on things.

We really need a black and white clarification on what is covered by games of chance.

Skill games? (they all involve an element of chance it seems)
Third party services? (there is a chance 3rd party could walk, although it's low)
Hosting services?
Lotteries? (the big eve lottery being yet another victim)

Rip sandbox


Look, betting on things like "games of skill" is still gambling. The bookies/bookmakers typically set up algorithms to calculate the odds based on people's betting patterns. There is considerable literature on this and they all rely on probability theory...just as if you discussing roulette or craps. The only significant difference is that the probabilities over say a sports game are subjective probabilities.


I work in the gambling industry and whilst I'm not currently a pml holder I know enough to work within the ukgc regs. I understand gambling, what I'm questioning is the wording of the eula.

Cheers though
Elliott Spitzer
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#131 - 2016-10-12 18:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Elliott Spitzer
Robin Wren wrote:
Brusanan wrote:
Robin Wren wrote:
Games of chance are not games of skill (poker), but as part of poker involves elements of chance where is the line ?

I'm sure Eve Online Hold'Em is covered by this ban on gambling as well.

I't doesn't say gambling games, it says games of chance.


I don't understand what all the confusion is.

Here's what it says:

"In short, this addition to the EVE Online EULA means that as of the launch of EVE Online: Ascension, players will be prohibited from using in game assets and currency, as well as the EVE IP, to take part in or promote gambling services or other games of chance that are operated by third parties."

To me that says any third party gambling site will be banned, regardless if you consider it a game of chance or not, including Eve Online Hold 'em.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#132 - 2016-10-12 18:12:21 UTC
If Iron is flagged as RMT (I have no reason to accuse him as such, but since they are doing blanket punishment on all involved, just for the virtue of involvement, not actual evidence of involvement) - then will CCP remove his SP too? Which was bought using ISK he made from IWI, which is now all of sudden judged to be involved with RMT, including down to Bankers who just got hired a few weeks ago?

WTF is going on seriously.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
Robin Wren
Attack Kittens
#133 - 2016-10-12 18:12:28 UTC
Elliott Spitzer wrote:
Robin Wren wrote:
Brusanan wrote:
Robin Wren wrote:
Games of chance are not games of skill (poker), but as part of poker involves elements of chance where is the line ?

I'm sure Eve Online Hold'Em is covered by this ban on gambling as well.

I't doesn't say gambling games, it says games of chance.


Here's what it says:

"In short, this addition to the EVE Online EULA means that as of the launch of EVE Online: Ascension, players will be prohibited from using in game assets and currency, as well as the EVE IP, to take part in or promote gambling services or other games of chance that are operated by third parties."

To me that says any third party gambling site will be banned, including Eve Online Hold 'em.


That's a fair cop

Shame
Elliott Spitzer
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#134 - 2016-10-12 18:13:51 UTC
Toobo wrote:
If Iron is flagged as RMT (I have no reason to accuse him as such, but since they are doing blanket punishment on all involved, just for the virtue of involvement, not actual evidence of involvement) - then will CCP remove his SP too? Which was bought using ISK he made from IWI, which is now all of sudden judged to be involved with RMT, including down to Bankers who just got hired a few weeks ago?

WTF is going on seriously.


What? They are doing this because there is a massive amount of evidence involved.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#135 - 2016-10-12 18:15:05 UTC
Robin Wren wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Robin Wren wrote:
It's a shame that eve bet which just did a fantastic job with the at streaming is also going to be nuked from orbit. If this is a knee jerk reaction to the mess happening over cs:go then it makes some sense, if this is simply about rmt then surely you are actually helping the people that want to destroy our game win.... Just my point of view on things.

We really need a black and white clarification on what is covered by games of chance.

Skill games? (they all involve an element of chance it seems)
Third party services? (there is a chance 3rd party could walk, although it's low)
Hosting services?
Lotteries? (the big eve lottery being yet another victim)

Rip sandbox


Look, betting on things like "games of skill" is still gambling. The bookies/bookmakers typically set up algorithms to calculate the odds based on people's betting patterns. There is considerable literature on this and they all rely on probability theory...just as if you discussing roulette or craps. The only significant difference is that the probabilities over say a sports game are subjective probabilities.


I work in the gambling industry and whilst I'm not currently a pml holder I know enough to work within the ukgc regs. I understand gambling, what I'm questioning is the wording of the eula.

Cheers though


Then you already know the answer. Further, CCP has indicated that betting on the AT must be wound down prior to Nov. 8th as well. In other words, they are going to prohibit that after Nov. 8.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Prt Scr
569th Freelancers
#136 - 2016-10-12 18:15:10 UTC
Have i read the new EULA correctly?

I can set up and run a 'eve online gambling site' just like the ones that are running or where running before closed for RMT, providing that it is a scam and the only 'winner 'is me?

uɐıssnɹ pɐǝɹ ʇ,uɐɔ ı ʇnq ʎɹɹos ɯ,ı
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#137 - 2016-10-12 18:16:57 UTC
Toobo wrote:
If Iron is flagged as RMT (I have no reason to accuse him as such, but since they are doing blanket punishment on all involved, just for the virtue of involvement, not actual evidence of involvement) - then will CCP remove his SP too? Which was bought using ISK he made from IWI, which is now all of sudden judged to be involved with RMT, including down to Bankers who just got hired a few weeks ago?

WTF is going on seriously.


Doesn't matter what they do, my understanding that 1ronbank will have his accounts banned--i.e. that character is now essentially irrelevant barring a reversal of this ban.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#138 - 2016-10-12 18:18:50 UTC
Prt Scr wrote:
Have i read the new EULA correctly?

I can set up and run a 'eve online gambling site' just like the ones that are running or where running before closed for RMT, providing that it is a scam and the only 'winner 'is me?


Go for it....then tell us how it works out...oh...wait...

Maybe you should consider playing the game without cheating?


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kaoraku Shayiskhun
Simple Designs
#139 - 2016-10-12 18:19:16 UTC
Toobo wrote:
If Iron is flagged as RMT (I have no reason to accuse him as such, but since they are doing blanket punishment on all involved, just for the virtue of involvement, not actual evidence of involvement) - then will CCP remove his SP too? Which was bought using ISK he made from IWI, which is now all of sudden judged to be involved with RMT, including down to Bankers who just got hired a few weeks ago?

WTF is going on seriously.


Whats going on? You cry couse your favourite toy got called back, couse people can choke from it.

What the hell would you btw call a raffle, when you can play only, if you pay, and your chances multiply if you pay more?

CCP warned everybody about RMT in a devblog long time ago. https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/overlays-isk-buyer-amnesty-and-account-security/ Amnesty period is over.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#140 - 2016-10-12 18:21:02 UTC
Kaoraku Shayiskhun wrote:
Toobo wrote:
If Iron is flagged as RMT (I have no reason to accuse him as such, but since they are doing blanket punishment on all involved, just for the virtue of involvement, not actual evidence of involvement) - then will CCP remove his SP too? Which was bought using ISK he made from IWI, which is now all of sudden judged to be involved with RMT, including down to Bankers who just got hired a few weeks ago?

WTF is going on seriously.


Whats going on? You cry couse your favourite toy got called back, couse people can choke from it.

What the hell would you btw call a raffle, when you can play only, if you pay, and your chances multiply if you pay more?

CCP warned everybody about RMT in a devblog long time ago. https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/overlays-isk-buyer-amnesty-and-account-security/ Amnesty period is over.


A raffle is gambling.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online