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Capital defenses for freighter class vessels.

First post
Author
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#21 - 2016-10-07 02:06:02 UTC
While suicide ganking MAY have been "borderline cheating" as an unintended use of mechanics once, CCP made a decision, a long time ago, that it was a valid form of play, that it was fair, and that the existing systems that contain it were sufficient for how they think hisec should work.

Like it or not any new systems have to take in to account how the game actually works, not how you think the game should work. I'm sure we all have **** we don't like about the rules, but if your feature proposal is contingent on a nonexistant rules change in the first place, then you're starting at step 2, not step 1.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2016-10-07 04:38:51 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:


Then ask anyone from red frog or pushx how they have something like a 95% successful delivery rate.


Less than 0.20% chance of being killed over 1.8 million gate jumps. Or, one lost every 7 years of travel time in space.
Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2016-10-07 10:06:39 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
[quote=Danika Princip]
Suicide ganking is irrelevant. I repeat, keep it out of discussion. If you want to discuss suicide ganking so badly - make a separate discussion. Thanks in advance.

It's absolutely relevant (and most certainly not "borderline cheating") and sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" does nothing to affect that fact. An emergency hull energizer fitted to a hisec freighter makes it for all practical purposes invulnerable. Full stop. I'm not sure if you're secretly campaigning for nerfing ganking or just clueless.


Why can't it be both?

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#24 - 2016-10-07 21:49:53 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
There is a very neat module - "Capital Emergency Hull Energizer". I think it would be very nice if freighters and jump freighters (edit: and Bowheads) could be able to fit it, since they are, technically, capital ships.


What criteria are you using to label them technically capital ships, exactly?

I'd say they're capital-sized, non-capital ships. Certainly nobody would say that an oil tanker is a "capital ship".

About the only thing they have in common with "capital ships" is size and construction components, the latter being shared with the Orca and even Black Ops (capital jump drives required).

Skill-wise, they do not require the capital ships skill, and they're allowed in high sec. By most relevant criteria, they do not function as capital ships.

They are assembled from capital parts. And yes, thank you. Orca is a sort of a capital ship as well.

However, Black Ops ships aren't capitals though they have jump drive and can bridge others - they are T2 battleships and assembled just like battleships and t2 normal ships - from minerals and t2 subcapital components. While jump freighters in comparison are assembled from t2 capital components.

As you have mentioned - indeed, they require capital jump drives to manufacture. But all else components of Black Ops - are subcapital (because there are no yet subcapital jump drive component blueprint).

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#25 - 2016-10-07 22:03:52 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
There is a very neat module - "Capital Emergency Hull Energizer". I think it would be very nice if freighters and jump freighters (edit: and Bowheads) could be able to fit it, since they are, technically, capital ships.


What criteria are you using to label them technically capital ships, exactly?

I'd say they're capital-sized, non-capital ships. Certainly nobody would say that an oil tanker is a "capital ship".

About the only thing they have in common with "capital ships" is size and construction components, the latter being shared with the Orca and even Black Ops (capital jump drives required).

Skill-wise, they do not require the capital ships skill, and they're allowed in high sec. By most relevant criteria, they do not function as capital ships.

They are assembled from capital parts. And yes, thank you. Orca is a sort of a capital ship as well.

However, Black Ops ships aren't capitals though they have jump drive and can bridge others - they are T2 battleships and assembled just like battleships and t2 normal ships - from minerals and t2 subcapital components. While jump freighters in comparison are assembled from t2 capital components.

As you have mentioned - indeed, they require capital jump drives to manufacture. But all else components of Black Ops - are subcapital (because there are no yet subcapital jump drive component blueprint).


So you're ignoring everything else that distinguishes them from REAL capital ships and hanging your definition solely on the parts used to build them while also conveniently excusing the use of those parts in other definitely-not-a-capital ship.

There's a skill called "Capital ships" that is required to fly "capital ships" and is NOT required to fly freighters, JFs, or Orcas.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2016-10-08 03:50:09 UTC
Theoretically speaking, they could be capitals... but they come pre-nerfed to gain access to highsec. If they had triple the EHP (as any other capital their size would) and fitting (like, for example, a 50000Mn to get in warp in 20 sec, a juicy Shield booster II, rigs, anything really), they'd be too OP and be shoved out of highsec altogether.

Yup. Freighters are sad beasts. Good for a few trips when you don't want to put your JF on the line, but darn near deathtraps, gimped in every conceivable way. At least they have insurance going for them.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2016-10-09 04:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Op, your mistake is assuming a class dictates identical or near-identical behaviors. They're only capital because of their morbidly obese size, not because of fitting capabilities.

""A ship is classified by tonnage, use and equipment. As with any engineering task you just make a list of what you need and then figure out what you can build/ afford to build, depending on that it will fall in one of the classes of the classification system you use.""

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2016-10-09 05:17:14 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:

Yup. Freighters are sad beasts. Good for a few trips when you don't want to put your JF on the line, but darn near deathtraps, gimped in every conceivable way. At least they have insurance going for them.


I recall the last time CCP did a ship survey freighters came out as one of the safest ships in EVE.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2016-10-09 07:54:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:

Yup. Freighters are sad beasts. Good for a few trips when you don't want to put your JF on the line, but darn near deathtraps, gimped in every conceivable way. At least they have insurance going for them.


I recall the last time CCP did a ship survey freighters came out as one of the safest ships in EVE.


precisely because they removed TONS of player content by creating jump freighters.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

TomyLobo
Negative Density
D3nse Matter
#30 - 2016-10-09 17:50:47 UTC
If carriers can use it, I don't see why not. Will make suicide ganking a lot harder than it is right now and will reward pilots pilots that are active. With alpha accounts coming in the next patch, things are even bound to get worse.

Boosting the economy has been the best argument for ganking and surely there's nothing wrong with the aggressor having to use more ships to achieve decent results given how lucrative suicide ganking is and how easy it's going to be to acquire gank characters come alpha accounts.

Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2016-10-09 20:30:50 UTC
TomyLobo wrote:
If carriers can use it, I don't see why not. Will make suicide ganking a lot harder than it is right now and will reward pilots pilots that are active. With alpha accounts coming in the next patch, things are even bound to get worse.

Boosting the economy has been the best argument for ganking and surely there's nothing wrong with the aggressor having to use more ships to achieve decent results given how lucrative suicide ganking is and how easy it's going to be to acquire gank characters come alpha accounts.


Carriers also can't enter hisec, so we should ban freighters from there too. I don't see why not.
Alpha accounts are going to make terrible gankers. I think they can only squeeze out 300DPS or something from a catalyst.
Should suicide ganking be made harder though, especially this hard? With this change you basically need 3 gank fleets per freighter, one to get him to pop the hull energizer and another two to kill the freighter with CONCORD on grid. Even a conservative estimate probably puts it at twice the current fleet size.

Ganking is only lucrative because people are stupid or overconfident. What needs change is the attitude that you should be safe in hisec, not game mechanics.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2016-10-10 14:58:32 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
If you already don't bother to take a single precaution to protect your freighter, would you even bother fitting this?

oh, yeah. Before I forget; all together now!

Just one more nerf and it'll be balanced!

I believe freighters should be not nerfed, but counterwise. For example, a nyx pilot can alpha a jump freighter, and I believe it ... well, shouldn't happen. I understand when a titan can one shot a capital (I've lost a carrier to that once), but a titan costs significantly more than a supercarrier. Freighters and jump freighters should need their EHP buffed significantly to survive at least alpha from a supercarrier, I think.

Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
The module gives temporary invulnerability, making it possible for the reinforcements to arrive. As I have written above, if the freighter is tackled and no reinforcement comes to save it - it dies.

How will it die?

If the freighter pilot activates the CEHE (crap acronym by the way), all the attackers die to CONCORD and no further assistance is required.

JFs in low and null might fall into your scenario, but this is just an 'I win with complete safety' button for highsec.

It will die if attackers can actually attack the freighter without breaking rules. If you can't tank sentries - you probably can't kill freighter anyway. And if you are attacked by CONCORD - this is not a real combat situation and I'd prefer to keep these scenarios out of the current discussion (while killing a ship this way is possible - it is a borderline cheating).


--> fit your jf properly or use alternative ways to protect your jf.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#33 - 2016-10-10 15:27:40 UTC
TomyLobo wrote:
If carriers can use it, I don't see why not.



Well, see, carriers are actual warships and, consequently, can use equipment designed for warships, whereas freighters are oversized steamer trunks strapped to some engines.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Bobb Bobbington
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2016-10-10 20:13:26 UTC
Guys, just stop

A freighter is not a capital ship
It is not a subcap ship

It is a FREIGHTER
it has it's own damn rules and it's own damn playstyle

Shoehorning it into one group or the other for the sake of your argument does nobody any good


Now onto more a more opinionated piece-
I think ganking is already hard enough. People have to have whole fleets to kill freighters already, and targets are chosen for one of two reasons. One, the gankee is stupid, hauling way too much, and not using proper scouts/webs. Or, the gankers are shooting people for lols, because ganking is hard enough that truly making it profitable is difficult. In either case, making it harder and more punishing to gank will not help the situation nor the conflict drivers in Eve.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#35 - 2016-10-10 22:42:05 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Guys, just stop

A freighter is not a capital ship
It is not a subcap ship

It is a FREIGHTER
it has it's own damn rules and it's own damn playstyle

Shoehorning it into one group or the other for the sake of your argument does nobody any good

Well, then lets talk about this group of ships: Freighter, Jump Freighter and Bowhead. They are 'capital' equivalents of industrial ship. Yes, I will still use this word just to emphasize their difference from industrials.

You probably could easily gank unfitted industrial with just a svipul. But if you properly fit and tank industrial - even tornado won't one shot it. With freighters we now have a situation when just one nyx can one shot them. And they have incredibly limited ability for fitting: just three low slots basically without any CPU and PG. Maximum you can do is just fit 3 bulkheads. You can boost EHP of industrial ship about 10 times of its original with fitting, while for freighter class vessel it is less that 2 times.

What I would like to see - is turning ganking of freighters into fighting for freighters. Give them some sort of triage equivalent, so they can survive fast attack, but that they can't jump or dock and have to actually sit there and defend themselves, while others are fighting.

Then the gameplay for freighter would be not just evading, but actually defending assets.

This will give more fights, more wrecks and of course more content!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2016-10-10 22:59:50 UTC
...Why do you think a ship that is essentially a giant cardboard box should be able to tank harder than actual combat ships?

An unfit obelisk has 300k ehp. Do you really think ten times that is a good idea? Because that's tanking harder than a dread or a carrier.

An unfit anshar has 500k ehp. (And if you die in one of these, there is a 99% chance it is entirely your own fault). Ten times that and you're -probably- tanking harder than the nyx attacking you.

Either way, you're flat out deleting highsec ganking.
Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#37 - 2016-10-10 23:15:16 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Guys, just stop

A freighter is not a capital ship
It is not a subcap ship

It is a FREIGHTER
it has it's own damn rules and it's own damn playstyle

Shoehorning it into one group or the other for the sake of your argument does nobody any good

Well, then lets talk about this group of ships: Freighter, Jump Freighter and Bowhead. They are 'capital' equivalents of industrial ship. Yes, I will still use this word just to emphasize their difference from industrials.

You probably could easily gank unfitted industrial with just a svipul. But if you properly fit and tank industrial - even tornado won't one shot it. With freighters we now have a situation when just one nyx can one shot them. And they have incredibly limited ability for fitting: just three low slots basically without any CPU and PG. Maximum you can do is just fit 3 bulkheads. You can boost EHP of industrial ship about 10 times of its original with fitting, while for freighter class vessel it is less that 2 times.

What I would like to see - is turning ganking of freighters into fighting for freighters. Give them some sort of triage equivalent, so they can survive fast attack, but that they can't jump or dock and have to actually sit there and defend themselves, while others are fighting.

Then the gameplay for freighter would be not just evading, but actually defending assets.

This will give more fights, more wrecks and of course more content!

First of all, you are aware that giving freighters some sort of invuln/capital-level active tank DRASTICALLY increases their survivability and hurts ganking a lot. I still haven't seen any suggestions from you to balance that.
Second of all, why should I try to fight people instead of evading them? There's really no reason to bring 10 friends in combat ships when I can scout myself with a travelceptor. It's much easier for me, why do I need to yolo my freighter through gates or something to please you?
Third of all, why does it even matter if you give the freighter a super tank? If I'm a pirate I'm going to kill the escort over the thing that can't shoot back, then finish it off. A CEHE only delays the inevitable unless you win, in which case it probably doesn't matter.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2016-10-11 08:04:34 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

Third of all, why does it even matter if you give the freighter a super tank? If I'm a pirate I'm going to kill the escort over the thing that can't shoot back, then finish it off. A CEHE only delays the inevitable unless you win, in which case it probably doesn't matter.


Because that makes ganking them impossible.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#39 - 2016-10-11 11:58:16 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
There is a very neat module - "Capital Emergency Hull Energizer". I think it would be very nice if freighters and jump freighters (edit: and Bowheads) could be able to fit it, since they are, technically, capital ships. And thus should have capital level of defenses.

Or maybe even better - add this ability to freighters and jump freighters as hull property. Such module will give it time for the escort defenses to arrive (if there were any) and turn simple ganking into proper fight for the freighter. Of course if the freighter is tackled and there is no support arriving it will go down in flames anyway, and it will only delay it's fate, which doesn't affect the status quo in the space where fight is allowed.

So basically remove highsec suicide ganking.

Because bumping is getting nerfed apparently so if gank fails (which it will with energizer) then the freighter warps off soon after.

Dumbass carebears want no risk in this game.
Escort your freighters and stop crying.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2016-10-11 12:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Elenahina
Ahem

Dear OP,

No. That is all.

Thank you,
Freighter pilots who are tired of having their ships nerfed into the ground because people cannot figure out how to protect them adequately. (Good pilots for short).

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

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