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CCP Fozzie Commits Rorqual Genocide

Author
Minerva Arbosa
Spatial Forces
Warped Intentions
#61 - 2016-10-03 16:48:06 UTC
Amarrchecko wrote:
Thomas Lot wrote:
I cannot disagree with you at all. Rorqual mining might be a really good thing. And many of us in Null have the resources and player base to fill out a support fleet to use it properly. Many who don't have that level of support will moth-ball the things. So I still stand by my conjecture that Rorquals will be used less often.

I may be completely wrong. Only the next year will give the answers.


I agree they will be used less often. Even if the changes are "ideal" and rorqs are viable to use in belts, some players will still stop using rorqs. Some rorqs have always just been AFK in a POS all day long for larger mining groups to use. Some rorq pilots don't have any semblance of skills necessary to fly one where it may come under fire. Some people will just be afraid of losing one.

But I'd like to hope that for the people who do use rorqs wisely, they will be better off than they are now with it sitting behind a POS shield. Consider a solo miner with like 4-8 accounts. He probably has a rorq, 3-6 pilots in skiffs, and 0-1 pilots acting as a hauler. Suddenly his rorq: is in a belt providing boosts that are relatively better than what the average miner in null has since not everyone uses rorqs anymore, is in a belt getting its own yield of maybe 50m/hr with new super mining drones, is providing on-the-spot compression so that no hauler (or no warping in and out of the belt) is necessary anymore, is providing RR support so that hulks are a more attractive option instead of skiffs.

Sure, that rorq WILL die eventually. But after insurance, especially in a quiet area of null (which there are a lot of) or in an alliance where a fleet will happily form for some content that might save the rorq sometimes, it won't take very many hours of operation for that rorq to more than pay for itself. Anything after that point is gravy, more isk made than if the pilot had been using a BC or orca for boosts and not lost his booster... but missed out on the advantages the rorq has.


According to your quote even if it were making 50m/ hr, thats still 52 hours before the break even point. Then add in fuel costs, which we will say for the average mining fleet of 4 hours per day with max skills for the core it would still cost 3m / hr to utilize, plus one can estimate about 10m / hr for boosts as just a number, and suddenly that 50m ISK doesn't look as great as it first looked. Instead of 50m ISK / hr you are in reality after paying for expenses only getting 37m ISK / hr for a Capital Mining and Boosting ship.

Your new break even point is now 70.2 hours instead of 52 hours. That's a good bit more time on field than previously just to break even, and more risk, and more chances for people to catch the entire fleet. But what you say, you get to be invulnerable for X amount of time to get a defense fleet in? Oh wait, what about that sabre that just put bubbles up all around your ships while you can do nothing offensive against it? Then suddenly the stealth bomber comes in and lights a covert cyno. Now you have the entire black ops group sitting off of you staring at their next meal.

So let's add up that fleet of yours that just got theoretically smashed. 2.6b ISK for the Rorqual, 200m ISK / Skiff, and we won't count Miasmos cause they are only like 1m ea. So an 8 pilot group just got screwed out of 3.8b ISK. Also, they have acquired a new cloaky alt that is red to them waiting for them to bring out more toys. Or the ever present lets hold the fleet here until a defense fleet shows up in ones and twos a lot could also be a pretty good haul.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2016-10-04 06:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Not Primary Disengage wrote:
I agree. There was never a problem with off-grid mining boosts. The problem was combat boosts.

The technical and practical realities of the game mean that very rarely will the rorqual pilot be able to mount any sort of defense in time.

I suggest CCP game designers spend one month mining in nullsec before they make any serious changes.

I would add that most people asking for rorqual changes, have never flown a rorqual. They only shoot at them.


Why should any boosters be safe.

And op; war isn't about not taking losses. Its about hurting them more than they hurt you.

Amarrchecko wrote:
Thomas Lot wrote:
I cannot disagree with you at all. Rorqual mining might be a really good thing. And many of us in Null have the resources and player base to fill out a support fleet to use it properly. Many who don't have that level of support will moth-ball the things. So I still stand by my conjecture that Rorquals will be used less often.

I may be completely wrong. Only the next year will give the answers.


I agree they will be used less often. Even if the changes are "ideal" and rorqs are viable to use in belts, some players will still stop using rorqs. Some rorqs have always just been AFK in a POS all day long for larger mining groups to use. Some rorq pilots don't have any semblance of skills necessary to fly one where it may come under fire. Some people will just be afraid of losing one.

But I'd like to hope that for the people who do use rorqs wisely, they will be better off than they are now with it sitting behind a POS shield. Consider a solo miner with like 4-8 accounts. He probably has a rorq, 3-6 pilots in skiffs, and 0-1 pilots acting as a hauler. Suddenly his rorq: is in a belt providing boosts that are relatively better than what the average miner in null has since not everyone uses rorqs anymore, is in a belt getting its own yield of maybe 50m/hr with new super mining drones, is providing on-the-spot compression so that no hauler (or no warping in and out of the belt) is necessary anymore, is providing RR support so that hulks are a more attractive option instead of skiffs.

Sure, that rorq WILL die eventually. But after insurance, especially in a quiet area of null (which there are a lot of) or in an alliance where a fleet will happily form for some content that might save the rorq sometimes, it won't take very many hours of operation for that rorq to more than pay for itself. Anything after that point is gravy, more isk made than if the pilot had been using a BC or orca for boosts and not lost his booster... but missed out on the advantages the rorq has.


Any game changes that make people have to watch a single game box much more often are very nice.


SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Thomas Lot wrote:


Good Lord... it's not about the Gila. It's about the increased risk to to mining fleets, and the lower yield now that Rorquals will not be used nearly as often. Yes, mineral prices are going to go up and therefore so will ship prices. Domi cost is 200Mil now, 400-500M by January as an example.



Oh, wow. That triggered some sympathetic embarrassment.

About 2/3s of the cost of a domi hull is in Trit, Pyerite and Mexallon, predominantly sourced in high sec. The yields for these are unlikely to be impacted in any way.

Good luck with your prediction that null mineral values will quadruple. They wouldn't do that if you removed boosts entirely. Lol


If prices for resources for expensive ships go up, people go to cheaper ships so they don't hurt to use. Then more minerals get used of those ships, creating demand increasing price.

Anyway, if rorqs start blowing up, there'll be a small mineral blip which will go back down to average as people adapt. And nothing will change.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Degnar Oskold
Moira.
Villore Accords
#63 - 2016-10-04 17:51:11 UTC
JG Wentworth wrote:
Recently on the o7 Show, CCP Fozzie confirmed the removal of off-grid boosts and that this change would apply to mining boots. This means that you will have to siege your rorqual in the mining anomaly for 5 minutes to provide boosts superior to those from an orca. CCPs logic is that the rorquals tank will be increased and it will be provided with the ability to make other miners in its vicinity invulnerable for a short period of time, in order to receive support via a cyno, etc.

This may not be a problem for large, condensed nulsec alliances, such as goonswarm, test, darkness Co2, CVA, etc. However, for nulsec entities who cannot flashform enough people to fight a 50-100 man gila / proteus fleet from a wormhole (particularly thera), it is practically suicide to siege your rorqual, because eventually it will get tackled, and if they can keep it tackled it will die.

The underlying issue here is wormhole power projection. Groups like VOLTA have the ability to tackle something, (such as a rorqual sieged in the belt) and hold it there with a sabre long enough for them to mobilize a large fleet from a thera wormhole a few jumps away (or in system).

Even if you have scouts a few jumps away from where your corp is mining there is no way you are going to be able to red cycle siege and get your rorqual safe before the Thera boys tackle you. At that point you are dead and might as well self destruct your rorqual if you don't have a large amount of support ready to jump to your cyno.

However for instance, lets say your corp has 2 FAX and 10 carriers that can support your tackled rorqual. What will likely happen is VOLTA will keep your group of capitals tackled and then call in support from freinds (yes PL has jump clones and sleipnir's in thera, and likes to kill capitals).

Once again the issue here is wormhole power projection and why it is not viable to siege your rorqual or attempt to support it when it gets tackled by large wormhole entities.

A few potential changes that would make rorqual boosting viable would be:

1. Reduce the duration of the industrial core to 1 minute.
2. Remove the industrial core and add a flat bonus to the rorqual.
3. Make it so that unsieged rorqual boosts are better than orca boosts.
4. Allow mining boosts ( not combat boosts ) to be passed from off-grid.
5. Give an additional yield bonus to miners in the vicinity of the rorqual.


I don't know , given the 2000 DPS that rorquals can do now as well as the other features about them in the dev blog, I disagree with much of what you say. I think that Rorquals in the field together with 800DPS Orcas are going to have big teeth, hotdropping miners will not be easy. A solo Rorqual will rip apart Blops Battleships, let alone a Rorqual supported by Orcas.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#64 - 2016-10-04 18:04:01 UTC
Well I think we've been given a pretty substantive answer to the question "why would I seige my Rorqual in a belt/anom?":

"Because you'll make 360m/hr mining spodumain"

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#65 - 2016-10-04 18:13:26 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Well I think we've been given a pretty substantive answer to the question "why would I seige my Rorqual in a belt/anom?":

"Because you'll make 360m/hr mining spodumain"



Lol

So, yeah - all by itself it can basically cover the actual replacement cost of the hull in about an hour and a half.

Never mind the boosts to the remainder of the fleet, the potential to prevent a loss of the fleet, etc.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that news of the Rorqual's death has been exaggerated.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#66 - 2016-10-04 18:14:45 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Well I think we've been given a pretty substantive answer to the question "why would I seige my Rorqual in a belt/anom?":

"Because you'll make 360m/hr mining spodumain"



Lol

So, yeah - all by itself it can basically cover the actual replacement cost of the hull in about an hour and a half.

Never mind the boosts to the remainder of the fleet, the potential to prevent a loss of the fleet, etc.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that news of the Rorqual's death has been exaggerated.


Well about 6 or 7 hours but yeah. And every ship it bonuses meanwhile decreases the payback time.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#67 - 2016-10-04 18:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Malcanis wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Well I think we've been given a pretty substantive answer to the question "why would I seige my Rorqual in a belt/anom?":

"Because you'll make 360m/hr mining spodumain"



Lol

So, yeah - all by itself it can basically cover the actual replacement cost of the hull in about an hour and a half.

Never mind the boosts to the remainder of the fleet, the potential to prevent a loss of the fleet, etc.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that news of the Rorqual's death has been exaggerated.


Well about 6 or 7 hours but yeah. And every ship it bonuses meanwhile decreases the payback time.


That'll cover the cost of the entire hull, but the real replacement cost is less - Rorqs insure, yes? Just eyeballing it with zkill estimates, the cheapest rorq I see right now is 2 billion, platinum insurance is 665m, with a payout of 2215m.

Of course, fittings will add to that, though just looking at some lost ones, they're certainly not dramatically expensive to fit, normally. Total losses look to run in the 2500M to 3000M range. Excavator cost remains an unknown (to me, anyway).

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#68 - 2016-10-04 18:23:21 UTC
Kalido Raddi wrote:
Get organised, Roll the Holes before they become a problem.

Also, Cyno Jammers are your friends.

Rorqual Mining is going to require a lot more co-ordinated teamplay to work after changes. It's no longer as easy as sticking a locked POS up with a booster in it.


cyno jammer doesn't stop covert cyno's
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
Villore Accords
#69 - 2016-10-04 18:51:35 UTC
Rorqual will get a new lease of life as a PVP ship. 2000 dps while providing shield reps? Yes please!
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#70 - 2016-10-04 20:13:45 UTC
Degnar Oskold wrote:
Rorqual will get a new lease of life as a PVP ship. 2000 dps while providing shield reps? Yes please!



2000 dps sieged
~40k dps+ local tank
10ly jumprange
-90% fattygay

Unsieged, it's still 1k drone dps. Or 800ish Sentry DPS.
Slowcats are back on the table, boys!


Oh wait this is the industry section.
Buy Rorqual, Mine 4 hours, plex your account. Mine another 80 hours, buy yourself a Supercarrier.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#71 - 2016-10-04 23:27:10 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Oh wait this is the industry section.
Buy Rorqual, Mine 4 hours, plex your account. Mine another 80 hours, buy yourself a Supercarrier.

... because you are the only one in EvE that thought of that.

Are you aware how markets work?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#72 - 2016-10-05 01:03:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Not Primary Disengage wrote:
I agree. There was never a problem with off-grid mining boosts. The problem was combat boosts.


If its providing your fleet with a bonus then it should not be sitting perfectly safe in a POS.


Coming soon to a nullsec near you: structures/upgrades providing titan-style boosts to all friendlies in a system, with nullsec denizens unironically addressing complaints with "we earned it" and claiming that "just shoot the structure" is an acceptable course of action.
Zanar Skwigelf
Wormhoppers Inc.
#73 - 2016-10-07 18:18:47 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


That'll cover the cost of the entire hull, but the real replacement cost is less - Rorqs insure, yes? Just eyeballing it with zkill estimates, the cheapest rorq I see right now is 2 billion, platinum insurance is 665m, with a payout of 2215m.

Of course, fittings will add to that, though just looking at some lost ones, they're certainly not dramatically expensive to fit, normally. Total losses look to run in the 2500M to 3000M range. Excavator cost remains an unknown (to me, anyway).


Building an me10 rorq is about 2.1b, bpc pack was around 150-200m (now the hull is 150 by itself), and manufacturing costs at 1.0% is around 60m, so pre fitting it's closer to 2.3 than 2.0, but I guess it's hard to sell a ship in null that is just minerals for its creation.

I still agree that 3b fitted is a likely number tho.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#74 - 2016-10-07 20:20:35 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


That'll cover the cost of the entire hull, but the real replacement cost is less - Rorqs insure, yes? Just eyeballing it with zkill estimates, the cheapest rorq I see right now is 2 billion, platinum insurance is 665m, with a payout of 2215m.

Of course, fittings will add to that, though just looking at some lost ones, they're certainly not dramatically expensive to fit, normally. Total losses look to run in the 2500M to 3000M range. Excavator cost remains an unknown (to me, anyway).


Building an me10 rorq is about 2.1b, bpc pack was around 150-200m (now the hull is 150 by itself), and manufacturing costs at 1.0% is around 60m, so pre fitting it's closer to 2.3 than 2.0, but I guess it's hard to sell a ship in null that is just minerals for its creation.

I still agree that 3b fitted is a likely number tho.


Mineral costs in a Thukker are about 1.8.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Curious Onlooker
LE YOLO LE SWAG LE 9GAG YOLOSWAG SWAGGER CORP YOLO
#75 - 2016-10-08 21:07:54 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


That'll cover the cost of the entire hull, but the real replacement cost is less - Rorqs insure, yes? Just eyeballing it with zkill estimates, the cheapest rorq I see right now is 2 billion, platinum insurance is 665m, with a payout of 2215m.

Of course, fittings will add to that, though just looking at some lost ones, they're certainly not dramatically expensive to fit, normally. Total losses look to run in the 2500M to 3000M range. Excavator cost remains an unknown (to me, anyway).


Building an me10 rorq is about 2.1b, bpc pack was around 150-200m (now the hull is 150 by itself), and manufacturing costs at 1.0% is around 60m, so pre fitting it's closer to 2.3 than 2.0, but I guess it's hard to sell a ship in null that is just minerals for its creation.

I still agree that 3b fitted is a likely number tho.


Mineral costs in a Thukker are about 1.8.


That's great, but has little to no relevance. The amount of effort and cost required to move minerals (or ore, and no longer get perfect refines) and the risk of doing so vastly outweigh the benefits. Pretty safe to assume the vast majority of null industrialists who use a rorq and build capitals will continue to build them in null. Especially with the new arrays.
Alexiel Fireborn
Perkone
Caldari State
#76 - 2016-11-06 19:59:10 UTC
Minerva Arbosa wrote:
Just wait till mineral prices skyrocket, and the Gila goes from being 200m / hull to 600m / hull. Do you all honestly think ship prices aren't going to skyrocket due to mineral prices going up severly? I can't wait until all the minerals I am building up sky rocket in price up to the new normal of double or triple the price. You don't think it will happen then wait and see.




rly? gila price is bpc mostly , minerals needed for building one cost 12m so think twice :) besides just bcos those large bot fleets regular players didnt choose mining for activitie due to low isk/hour ratio
Now Life
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2016-11-09 08:18:30 UTC
with the current price of the Rogue Drones salvage in jita
A 'Excavator' miningDrone build from bp with ME10
Mineral cost is +/- 200 mil / drone

So a full rorq is + 5 bil ship
and you will see mining fleets of +10 rorquals in the belts + ships to defense and a backup fleet to jump in
Just because it produces so many minerals / h and isk
Feng Yotosashi
Yamato Inc.
#78 - 2016-11-14 13:19:04 UTC
JG Wentworth wrote:
(yes PL has jump clones and sleipnir's in thera, and likes to kill capitals).


Wait, is it possible to jump clone from known space to Thera? I thought you couldn't jump clone to or between wormhole systems (except the new in-system jump clone via Citadels).

"The carp and the cutting board" - 忍者産業

radkid10
Universal Exos
#79 - 2016-11-15 23:38:54 UTC
the Rorqual can tank 14 doomsdays ;/