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New Dev Blog: CSM December summit – meeting minutes are out

First post First post First post
Author
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#121 - 2012-01-17 22:55:44 UTC
Rasz Lin wrote:
Sreeg sucks.
There are systems in Citadel with 30-50 bot CNR and Tengus at all times. All with random names, ALL in 1 man corps with corp ticker made up of random numbers. All made by a script, all using same bot.

Sreeg SUCKS AT HIS JOB.


Have you reported them?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

EmmerTemp
State War Academy
Caldari State
#122 - 2012-01-17 22:59:28 UTC
All sounds good... there are some very nice thing in there...

But:
Don't you guys ever think about docking Supers ever again please,
Do not let them become a standard Carrier on steriods
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
#123 - 2012-01-17 23:00:07 UTC
One of the biggest issues I see with 0.0 is that alliance leaders are getting rich off moons. One of the easiest way to nerf that would be a new super capital ORE ship and mines moons which essentially can flood the market with the richer moon goo and effectively nerfs alliances wanting to hold onto rich moons. Which means less fights over moons and that's good for everyone's sanity.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#124 - 2012-01-17 23:01:51 UTC
Callidus Dux wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Alternatively, there could be a skill point limit applied to classes of complexes and missions, restricting them to new players and forcing higher SP players to look elsewhere for ISK farming activities.

Why do you want to link skillpoints to available missions? You do not steal the fun for new players, if old players fly their level 4 missions. But you anger the old and skilled players if you restrict or force them to do something other than they have skilled for. Roll

Hmm... ok, I poorly combined two separate issues into a single proposed solution. Apologies. Let me separate them now.

1) Static, low-end (1/10 and 2/10) DED complexes in high sec should be restricted to newer players.

Currently, new players don't have a chance to get the shiny at the end of the complex, due to more experienced players using T2 ships to blitz and farm all of the complexes. I know this happens 'cause I've admittedly done it myself a few times.

Restricting these complexes to T1 ships would help reduce the farming, but putting an SP limit on these complexes would solve the problem completely.

2) More controversial subject - farming missions for ISK.

Farming a static game feature - in order to pay to play other aspects of the game - is simply bad game design and should not be supported. CCP might as well implement "click on agent - get ISK" as a feature instead.

Ideally, the scripted mission system should be replaced by a dynamic mission generation system, which introduces a degree of randomness and risk, scaled to the player's current skill level, to prevent mindless semi-AFK running of the same missions over and over again. Failing this, the next best solution is to make missions into a progression, similar to the mission arcs. Once you do a mission, you move on to the next one. After you reach the skill level at which a mission is no longer a challenge, then you should no longer be able to run those missions, simply for the sake of grinding ISK.

Is forcing and/or pushing players onwards and upwards a bad thing? No, I don't think so. People tend to drift into repetitious comfort zones, wihch is ok in RL, but not so good for games. Your older and loyal players tend to become a lot less loyal once their boredom threshold is finally reached, and they drift off to the next game.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#125 - 2012-01-17 23:06:16 UTC
XavierVE wrote:
EAS idea is boneheaded, but that's usual from the geniuses in the CSM.

Quote:
The problem is, nobody really flys them at present; there are fewer active EAF than there are Black Ops BS. So CCP would like to find a new niche for them.


Hyenas rock in small gang PvP, and are basically the only good tool currently in the game for stopping people from gate crashing. If you idiots in the CSM screw up the very best tackler in the f'n game just to play supercapz warz, I swear to buddy christmas, I will cut you all.

It's called: Make a new ship, stupid. Don't screw up an existing class that works perfectly fine as it is.

Goddamn the CSM is such a pointless game-killing enterprise.


EAF Buff could easily be: "These Mods work on Supers and Titans" so now, in addition to your regularly scheduled usage (mostly of the Keres and Hyena), you can tackle and web, maybe even Jam, a Super.

In other words, not everyone's out to get your special snowflake usage.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#126 - 2012-01-17 23:08:53 UTC
Ah yes - the EAF changes. Not a fan of the anti-supercap niche you guys proposed. If you want people to use them, try making them usable and somewhat survivable.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2012-01-17 23:13:12 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Trebor for Jesus.

In EVE, this just means you want to nail me to a cross... Twisted

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#128 - 2012-01-17 23:16:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ah yes - the EAF changes. Not a fan of the anti-supercap niche you guys proposed. If you want people to use them, try making them usable and somewhat survivable.

Agreed. Fixes to sub-cap ships which only apply to use in null sec are really poorly thought out.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#129 - 2012-01-17 23:18:20 UTC
ONE LAST THING. NPC nullsec station services should not be vulnerable to destruction / incapacitation from sov 0.0 holders. Just because a system isn't conquerable and you can't deprive the system and its station to your enemies... who cares? What - are you going to demand to destroy low sec and high sec station services too? Afterall, "pirate" and "homeless" alliances can live there and still raid your space. :(

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#130 - 2012-01-17 23:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:


Lili Lu wrote:
I WILL REPEAT NO ******* GODDAMN SKILL RESPECS. THAT IS ALMOST AS BAD A CHANGE AS P2W WAS.

While I cannot speak for everyone on the CSM, those who are in favor of Partial Skill Respecs want it to be limited to a few million SP and/or some small % of your total SP, and, like remaps, be possible once a year or so.

The major uses for this would be to (a) deal with game design changes that render some of your SP unusable, (b) permit faster access to new game features (ie: when PI came out, you could have respec'd into PI skills) and (c) make a significant change of career easier (especially for purchased characters).


Sounds like very weak reasoning to me.

(a) You can always train for new stuff and that SP will likely be useful again at some point. The whining about useless SP tends to come from people who have changed their focus in gameplay or FOTM chasers. Point being the issue of skill becoming totally useless isn't a real issue and the complaints are about something entirely different. Besides if some skill is truly useless, the solution is to have CCP take a look at the complaints and make it usefull for something.

(b) We play a game where training for commonly used ships takes weeks, months or even years and new players are expected to endure long periods to be even useful in many situations. But when it comes to arguing for respecs, someone having to wait minutes or hours to gain access to the new content is suddenly a big no-no. Absolute garbage.

(c) Those things don't justify a respec. The skill system allows for changes in specialization and achieving basic level of competancy only takes days. For a vet this is nothing and a new player couldn't have invested much in anything, so any damage is minor too. Specialization takes longer, but that should mean serious investment in time. Buying a character certainly doesn't warrant a respec, since you could have just buy a specialized character in the first place. It sounds like character traders just want to buy a SP pool and a respec to basicly have the ability to buy skillpoints and bypass the normal training limitations.

If there are good reasons to add respecs to the game, I'm not aware of any and you certainly didn't present one either. Considering it's unnecessary in the EVE skill system, reduces the value of specialization and caters mainly to FOTM chasers, even limited respecs should not be allowed for any reason.
Mashie Saldana
Jamgu Initiatives
#131 - 2012-01-17 23:20:30 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
I WILL REPEAT NO ******* GODDAMN SKILL RESPECS. THAT IS ALMOST AS BAD A CHANGE AS P2W WAS.

While I cannot speak for everyone on the CSM, those who are in favor of Partial Skill Respecs want it to be limited to a few million SP and/or some small % of your total SP, and, like remaps, be possible once a year or so.

The major uses for this would be to (a) deal with game design changes that render some of your SP unusable, (b) permit faster access to new game features (ie: when PI came out, you could have respec'd into PI skills) and (c) make a significant change of career easier (especially for purchased characters).

Screw that, have you guys lost your mind?
Lili Lu
#132 - 2012-01-17 23:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
I WILL REPEAT NO ******* GODDAMN SKILL RESPECS. THAT IS ALMOST AS BAD A CHANGE AS P2W WAS.

While I cannot speak for everyone on the CSM, those who are in favor of Partial Skill Respecs want it to be limited to a few million SP and/or some small % of your total SP, and, like remaps, be possible once a year or so.

The major uses for this would be to (a) deal with game design changes that render some of your SP unusable, (b) permit faster access to new game features (ie: when PI came out, you could have respec'd into PI skills) and (c) make a significant change of career easier (especially for purchased characters).

And that's the whole problem.

Whether it's relatively new players whining because they trained some mining and now want that sp in pvp skills, or veteran players who should know better whining because their I-win supercarrier got nerfed the principle is the same. The game is about patience and choices and knowledge that the game continues to evolve hopefully for the better.

You don't get redos simply because your formerly overpowered ship got nerfed. You made use of those skills while the ship was op. You live with those maybe now unused skills now that the op ship was taken away. Poeple can't take away what happened in the game with those ships while they were op. Why should the skills vanish as well. It's just children crying because their candy was taken away and also wanting new candy.

This is a great game. P2W was going to be the death of it, and wisely CCP realized that. I don't care how many of you pouting butthurt supercarrier pilots whine in your meetings for a skill respec. Hopefully CCP will see it the same way. That there are aspects to this game that should not be changed, because those aspects are what make the game a game worth playing.

Respecs will only enable more fotm chasing and make the balancing all the more imperative. Balancing is hard work, and CCP moves at a glacial pace in doing it. They would have to move at warp speed if they allow respecs. Either way it would be the ruin of the game anyway.

I honestly can't believe there were CSM people whining for respec. Disgusting. Tell us who because they're not worthy of any votes in the next election.

edit- and respeccing purchased characters?Ugh Are you all ******* batshit crazy? Purchasing characters is already a compromise to game integrity. Now Johnny wnats to not only buy a new toy but redesign the new toy? Then we might as well just purchase the sp directly and we are back to p2w and the game is ******. Seriously pissed off over this. I haven't been a CSM hater but if this is the kind of diarrhea that slips out your butt cheeks and all over the game while we're not looking you just converted me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#133 - 2012-01-17 23:29:24 UTC
If they gave me a partial skill respec I'd probably respec wholly out of carriers and let my main fly with large T2 blasters and gallente ship skills at 5.

This would not be good for the game.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#134 - 2012-01-17 23:30:12 UTC
Don't try to make faction war like sov 0.0 warfare.

Increase the variety of things to do in eve. Don't decrease it.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Fuujin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#135 - 2012-01-17 23:45:50 UTC
Limited respecs may not see the light of day, but the reasoning for supercarrier/titan pilots is that unlike the guy flying a dramiel or macherial or the latest FOTM, he's trained for years to fly his supercap and can't really step out of it. Previously, drone SP was a very much needed thing for the hulls, but now they're entirely superfluous for titan pilots and SC pilots only get use out of 5 skills in the entire tree. This character, for example, has 9M skillpoints in drones alone that will likely never again be used.

Wheras the guy flying the FOTM? Most of his skills carry over to other hulls, and he always has the option of swapping into a hull that uses any "Wasted" SP at will.

It's also not "pay to win" because it doesn't add any SP. It's "Pay to respecialize" with your existing skillpoints, that could be capped to once a year or so like remaps. I'm 100% against adding SP out of thin air with any purchasable item.

For comparison, the sky didn't fall and the earth didn't tear asunder when we all got reimbursed for learning skills. Food for thought.

But this is a feature that really isn't make-or-break; it would be a nice to have though.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#136 - 2012-01-17 23:46:38 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:


Lili Lu wrote:
I WILL REPEAT NO ******* GODDAMN SKILL RESPECS. THAT IS ALMOST AS BAD A CHANGE AS P2W WAS.

While I cannot speak for everyone on the CSM, those who are in favor of Partial Skill Respecs want it to be limited to a few million SP and/or some small % of your total SP, and, like remaps, be possible once a year or so.

The major uses for this would be to (a) deal with game design changes that render some of your SP unusable, (b) permit faster access to new game features (ie: when PI came out, you could have respec'd into PI skills) and (c) make a significant change of career easier (especially for purchased characters).


Sounds like very weak reasoning to me.

(a) You can always train for new stuff and that SP will likely be useful again at some point. The whining about useless SP tends to come from people who have changed their focus in gameplay or FOTM chasers. Point being the issue of skill becoming totally useless isn't a real issue and the complaints are about something entirely different. Besides if some skill is truly useless, the solution is to have CCP take a look at the complaints and make it usefull for something.

(b) We play a game where training for commonly used ships takes weeks, months or even years and new players are expected to endure long periods to be even useful in many situations. But when it comes to arguing for respecs, someone having to wait minutes or hours to gain access to the new content is suddenly a big no-no. Absolute garbage.

(c) Those things don't justify a respec. The skill system allows for changes in specialization and achieving basic level of competancy only takes days. For a vet this is nothing and a new player couldn't have invested much in anything, so any damage is minor too. Specialization takes longer, but that should mean serious investment in time. Buying a character certainly doesn't warrant a respec, since you could have just buy a specialized character in the first place. It sounds like character traders just want to buy a SP pool and a respec to basicly have the ability to buy skillpoints and bypass the normal training limitations.

If there are good reasons to add respecs to the game, I'm not aware of any and you certainly didn't present one either. Considering it's unnecessary in the EVE skill system, reduces the value of specialization and caters mainly to FOTM chasers, even limited respecs should not be allowed for any reason.


THIS

PLEASE, DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT RESPECS! OR WE WILL LOOSE OUR RESPECT.

As the poster quoted stated - it will actually hurt new players, as vets could always respec to new stauff when its been introduced, while new players will always be behind. Where as i understand current system, when new stuff comes into play, both vets and new players are on equal tooting (more or less)
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#137 - 2012-01-17 23:48:03 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Trebor for Jesus.

In EVE, this just means you want to nail me to a cross... Twisted


Hmm, looks like I will bring out hammer and nails once more ...

But there's still time left before the election starts.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Fuujin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#138 - 2012-01-17 23:52:04 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:


THIS

PLEASE, DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT RESPECS! OR WE WILL LOOSE OUR RESPECT.

As the poster quoted stated - it will actually hurt new players, as vets could always respec to new stauff when its been introduced, while new players will always be behind. Where as i understand current system, when new stuff comes into play, both vets and new players are on equal tooting (more or less)


If such a system were to be implemented, there would likely be significant restrictions placed upon it, and would likely come at a steep price.
Plus, a vet respeccing into "new stauff" would be doing so at the expense of "old stauff"--he might not fly an interceptor as well, or be able to fly a capship, or any number of possibilities. Plus, in eve you can only be so good with a given ship and module set...newbies would be able to equal you with time.

Also: consider the bittervet who's tired of capital ships and wants to be able to fly those HACs he passed up years ago. A Respec would help player retention by enabling a fresher experience for them.
Rasz Lin
#139 - 2012-01-17 23:57:47 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Rasz Lin wrote:
Sreeg sucks.
There are systems in Citadel with 30-50 bot CNR and Tengus at all times. All with random names, ALL in 1 man corps with corp ticker made up of random numbers. All made by a script, all using same bot.

Sreeg SUCKS AT HIS JOB.


Have you reported them?


every time i enter those systems (since >5 months now), I even started recognizing some of the names because I reported them so many times ...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#140 - 2012-01-18 00:01:06 UTC
Fuujin wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:


THIS

PLEASE, DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT RESPECS! OR WE WILL LOOSE OUR RESPECT.

As the poster quoted stated - it will actually hurt new players, as vets could always respec to new stauff when its been introduced, while new players will always be behind. Where as i understand current system, when new stuff comes into play, both vets and new players are on equal tooting (more or less)


If such a system were to be implemented, there would likely be significant restrictions placed upon it, and would likely come at a steep price.
Plus, a vet respeccing into "new stauff" would be doing so at the expense of "old stauff"--he might not fly an interceptor as well, or be able to fly a capship, or any number of possibilities. Plus, in eve you can only be so good with a given ship and module set...newbies would be able to equal you with time.

Also: consider the bittervet who's tired of capital ships and wants to be able to fly those HACs he passed up years ago. A Respec would help player retention by enabling a fresher experience for them.


It would also remove the feeling of having to work for something.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.