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Remove Remaps
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Setsuko Shintaro
Caldari Manufacturing and Design
#1 - 2016-09-27 18:48:32 UTC
TL;DR - Remove Remaps and replace Omega clone attributes with 25 across the board and Alpha clone attributes with 20 across the board

Its been stated before in a dev blog I believe that alpha clones will train slower than Omega clones. I was thinking about that and figured the only way to do it would be to reduce the amount of attribute points on an Alpha clone. However, I thought that would get weird with remaps and moving to an Omega clone. So I thought what if all the attributes were the same and there were no remaps.

Doing some quick math I came up with value of 25 for all attributes. This gives you the same 2250 SP/hour without implants (2700 with +5 implants) if you are training a skill that you are properly mapped. If Omega's are perfectly mapped for all skills, waht should Alphas be? Alpha's should be the current default mapping of new clones now. An alpha should have 20 in all attribute stats (give 1 extra to charisma). This has Alpha's training at 80% the speed of Omega's.

Positives of the above idea:
* No more having to delay training skills until you can remap to train efficiently(Perfect remap for all skills).
* Still a purpose to implants

Negatives
* Reduce complexity and forced skill planning by removing remaps.

Thoughts?
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2016-09-27 19:44:07 UTC
Setsuko Shintaro wrote:


Thoughts?



Attributes are going to be removed eventually, as CCP has stated numeous times.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#3 - 2016-09-27 20:07:17 UTC
nice of you to give a default level of +5's to base.


Here enters the problem with related lets remove skill attribute threads....whats the base learning speed going to be. The problem being what is used as base. You have gone beyond that with +5 to default with option to still +x. Your idea a bit too generous here. As even on my remaps I get maybe 28 attributes. With +4's from HG talon I get this.


you have base 25. Problem, not all use +5's so not a realistic base to have really. To have a chance at being seriously taken this would need to be 22 or 23 across the board.

+3's are common and cheap enough. It be a max to debate on. Have said for years +3 implants are fine to train with. Only reason I have +4 implants with the talons is because years ago on implant change up ccp made HG's +4 to make room for the MG's which got the +3. I ran them as +3 prior to this change.

Factoring in for the pvp'ers with some money...LG set implants are a thing. +2 to training assuming not blown up with the added effect of the set implants. Get your cake and eat some of it if kind of thing. +2 tbh realistically would be you new base....so 22 default.




Setsuko Shintaro
Caldari Manufacturing and Design
#4 - 2016-09-27 20:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Setsuko Shintaro
Zan Shiro wrote:
nice of you to give a default level of +5's to base.


Here enters the problem with related lets remove skill attribute threads....whats the base learning speed going to be. The problem being what is used as base. You have gone beyond that with +5 to default with option to still +x. Your idea a bit too generous here. As even on my remaps I get maybe 28 attributes. With +4's from HG talon I get this.



I'm not giving a default level of +5 to Base.

For training any skill in the game you use at most two attributes. Lets call them attribute A and B. Right now if you want to maximize your SP/hour you you remap attribute A to 27 and attribute B to 21. This give you 27 + 21/2 = 37.5 SP/min or 2250 SP/hour WITHOUT implants. With my proposal you have 25 + 25/2 = 37.5 SP/min or 2250 SP/hour. I am not proposing increasing the maximum possible SP/hour and I'm not proposing removing implants.

If you use +5 implants now and are properly mapped to the skill you are training you will have attribute A at 32 and attribute B at 26. This gives you 32 + 13 = 45 SP/min or 2700 SP/hour. If you have +5 implants under my proposal you will have attribute A at 30 and Attribute B at 30 giving you 30 + 15 = 45 SP/min or 2700 SP/hour.

As you can see I'm not pushing for the increase of the learning rate. I'm advocating that the base rate be the same as a properly mapped attribute and remove remaps. Your primary attribute will be 2 points less than max ( -120 SP/hour), but your secondary attribute will be 4 points higher (+120 SP/hour). Net change = 0.

After rereading your post, I think you may misunderstand me. I am advocating setting base attributes all to 25 and REMOVING remaps
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#5 - 2016-09-27 20:52:18 UTC
The simplest way to deal with Alpha State would be to completely remove remappable attribute points leaving them with 17 points across the board. They can fit basic implants to get 20 points but why bother when you're capped at 5 million SP.

That way no change is required to the present system for Omega players. One of the reasons CCP wants to remove the attribute system is risk aversion from people with expensive implants. They have neatly solved that problem by letting you jump between an expensive "learning" clone and an empty PVP clone as often as you want at Citadels. Removing attributes may be on the back burner for a while since there is no longer a pressing need.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#6 - 2016-09-27 21:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Setsuko Shintaro wrote:

After rereading your post, I think you may misunderstand me. I am advocating setting base attributes all to 25 and REMOVING remaps



Your idea is giving the possibility of going over what remaps give now. And no consequences, its all there. Thats too much. Like I said I am 28's now on 2 primaries. Your idea gives me 29 (25+ +4 hg talon) I don't even have now. Why I proposed more realistic base levels. 22 or 23. this gets us at about 27/28 with +4/5 implants. fair switch, just has it all there I will give as a caveat.

One Secret to good remapping has been to be moderate. +4 to 2 primaries ( 8 points) doesn't tank the other attributes completely....so off remap trains don't suck as bad. Bottom them all out for 2 uber attributes....yeah, you will have rough times. 8 points across 3 attributes not primary, get creative.

Unless a fleet booster plan (looking less appealing in the future anyway) or trading gets even easier. Pretend eve is fallout 3/NV/ or even 4. Bottom out the charisma lol. Eve doesn't even have conversation roll checks to fail if you do this so even better.


Remaps are fine as is. They pay out for those who plan well. So plan well and its all good. Or train slower sometimes. came back after a year or so break, I am doing catch up on off remap skills new to the game in my away time. It all comes out in the end when I hit skills for my remaps again.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#7 - 2016-09-27 21:21:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Zan Shiro wrote:



Your idea is giving the possibility of going over what remaps give now. And no consequences, its all there. Thats too much. Like I said I am 28's now on 2 primaries. Your idea gives me 29 (25+ +4 hg talon) I don't even have now. Why I proposed more realistic base levels. 22 or 23. this gets us at about 27/28 with +4/5 implants. fair switch, just has it all there I will give as a caveat.

One Secret to good remapping has been to be moderate. +4 to 2 primaries ( 8 points) doesn't tank the other attributes completely....so off remap trains don't suck as bad. Bottom them all out for 2 uber attributes....yeah, you will have rough times. 8 points across 3 attributes not primary, get creative.

Unless a fleet booster plan (looking less appealing in the future anyway) or trading gets even easier. Pretend eve is fallout 3/NV/ or even 4. Bottom out the charisma lol. Eve doesn't even have conversation roll checks to fail if you do this so even better.


Remaps are fine as is. They pay out for those who plan well. So plan well and its all good. Or train slower sometimes. came back after a year or so break, I am doing catch up on off remap skills new to the game in my away time. It all comes out in the end when I hit skills for my remaps again.

Remaps are not fine. They pay out for Vets who are training an alt and can afford to spend 6 months not having any ship skills while they train core skills perfectly. They punish new players who have to train a bunch of stuff in parallel.
And attributes should just be removed as has been mentioned. CCP just need to get over the fact it will impact the market and do it anyway.
Also no, their idea is not going over what remaps now give. It's giving exactly what remaps now give. The maths doesn't lie.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#8 - 2016-09-27 21:39:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Remaps are not fine. They pay out for Vets who are training an alt and can afford to spend 6 months not having any ship skills while they train core skills perfectly. They punish new players who have to train a bunch of stuff in parallel.
And attributes should just be removed as has been mentioned. CCP just need to get over the fact it will impact the market and do it anyway.
Also no, their idea is not going over what remaps now give. It's giving exactly what remaps now give. The maths doesn't lie.



This line of BS gets old, really. Vets were noobs once too. I got all my 0.0 requirements met year one, no remaps, +3 implants.

t2 frigates (inty and bomber), cruiser, bc, fleet spec BS (t2 everything requirements, support skills in place). This on a caldari char, missiles for those boats, hybrids for the gun ones. All this in under 1 year.

2nd year and beyond you specialize. Edit: and above if only wanting 0.0. Don't need inty and bombers...cut that train out. Wanting to bear only in caldari? No hybrids...I have tried to make PVE Rokh work....yet to be be happy with any attempt tbh.


Flat stats and +3 implants gets you pretty far in game year 1. Didn't even look at remaps to 10-11 months in. that first year is all over....the baseline flat attributes work out better. Doing pvp? run 2 +3 for skills in training to reduce cost of blow ups. JC's for several sets of this say hi, we are your friend. I also found oddly enough I lost less pods when I did this. 2 implants...pods came home more often. For whatever reason 4 or 5 implants in a clone...damn things always got podded lol.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#9 - 2016-09-27 22:24:34 UTC
Sorry but I have to ask because I am out of the client right now, what do the Talons do again?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

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Setsuko Shintaro
Caldari Manufacturing and Design
#10 - 2016-09-28 01:06:45 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:

Your idea is giving the possibility of going over what remaps give now. And no consequences, its all there. Thats too much. Like I said I am 28's now on 2 primaries. Your idea gives me 29 (25+ +4 hg talon) I don't even have now. Why I proposed more realistic base levels. 22 or 23. this gets us at about 27/28 with +4/5 implants. fair switch, just has it all there I will give as a caveat.


I don't know what to say except you're wrong or not efficiently mapped. I currently have 32 INT and 26 MEM with +5 implants. I take away the implants I have 27 INT and 21 MEM. Training science skills without the implants gives me 37.5 SP/min. The formula is primary skill plus half the secondary skill. To reach the equivalent stats to get 37.5 SP/min with equal stats across the board you just divide 37.5 by 1.5. This gives you 25. So my proposal gives the exact same value as training skills with a perfect remap.

This doesn't change if you add implants. If you have a full set of +5s this gives you 30s across the board. This gives you 45 (30+15) SP/Min. Which is the exact same Irate that this character is training (32+13).
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#11 - 2016-09-28 07:56:01 UTC
I do not see the problem. I have been on Perc/Mem since 2012 on this char and train every skill with it, whether it's awesome or terrible for it. I do not see remaps for this char as necessary because I have a virtue called "patience". However, I do value the remaps on other chars that I train because they are a lot more focused and benefit from the occasional attribute reshuffling to improve SP gains.

I do not see any overburdening complexity in the remaps. When I started, someone in my starter corp explained the attributes to me in probably under 5 minutes, gave me a general direction of what I should train first and which attributes are most suited for these skills (that kept me busy training for months to come). That is not complexity, that's a valid game mechanic offering you valid choices.

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Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#12 - 2016-09-29 02:23:35 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Sorry but I have to ask because I am out of the client right now, what do the Talons do again?


Caldari Implant set that increases Gravimetric strength, basically anti-jam pod

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Cade Windstalker
#13 - 2016-09-29 02:32:11 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Setsuko Shintaro wrote:


Thoughts?



Attributes are going to be removed eventually, as CCP has stated numeous times.


this is not accurate. CCP have *talked about it* numerous times, and have stated that there's an internal debate, but there's never been a hard "we're going to do this at some point in the future"
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#14 - 2016-09-29 03:40:15 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

this is not accurate. CCP have *talked about it* numerous times, and have stated that there's an internal debate, but there's never been a hard "we're going to do this at some point in the future"

No..... It actually landed half way between your two points.
There was a hard post on it by CCP where they said (to paraphrase) "We really want to do this, but there is a little concern over the LP market fall out of removing attribute implants so it might be a little longer while we look at things".
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#15 - 2016-09-29 03:57:26 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Sorry but I have to ask because I am out of the client right now, what do the Talons do again?


Caldari Implant set that increases Gravimetric strength, basically anti-jam pod


Aaah! Thank you! I have heard about them but I thought, nobody uses them.


And no to remap and attribute removal!! I am young and need to learn.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#16 - 2016-09-29 04:04:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Christopher Mabata wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Sorry but I have to ask because I am out of the client right now, what do the Talons do again?


Caldari Implant set that increases Gravimetric strength, basically anti-jam pod



also used for hard to find setups. Lower the ratio of radius to strength, higher the skills and gear used has to be.


Stuff about ccp talking about attribute removal.....CCP has talked about many things. Delivered on much less of that. I look at blops, that got a vague blog post long ago about rebalance passes...ideas of a split class like recon even as a brainstorm. Besides some bandaid jump fixes....its been very quiet here in regards to rebalance passing of any kind in the years since then.


Rest I and op have a differing of opinion on remap strategies. I like a moderate in the middle remap. Cool he likes the 27...I don't. I do 4 or 5 (pushing it there) max to not bottom out other stats. Keeps me more flexible for skill changes. Whose method is better? Neither. Just saying if ccp did something like this the across the board flat line stat would not be +5. It be all stats 23 if nice. CCP does't rebalance and benefit based on min/max. usually they nerf.

Why did X get nerfed CCP? Because in this min/max setup we saw some issues. How many used that though CCP? Enough, matter closed lol.

Quote:
There was a hard post on it by CCP where they said (to paraphrase) "We really want to do this, but there is a little concern over the LP market fall out of removing attribute implants so it might be a little longer while we look at things".



mentioned I saw this issue a few times in the past, was told not an issue. Nice to see ccp agreed with me lol. Some people do buy these for the attributes as well as the effect. Bears like me do. we like the +4. Most sets we'd be just as well off with the now MG's set effect really. Its just the +3 on a clone in theory will never die unless we get really stupid or have really bad luck....not thrilling us.

Some of these sets if isk returned....hello isk faucet for some. lets have attribute be half the cost reason of the implants. Some HG sets would be a very nice payday there as we get back half the market cost. This grows the more sets we have. I only have the talons now. Eyeing some halo's for funky ideas in my head. Day this comes, many set cloned up players make out real nice.

CCP's only out from this issue is to boost the set effects even more so we don't get hosed on the deal. Again for many a nice present. HG crystal, snake or slave does some amazing things. What happens at effect + x%.....here we see fun some fun times really.