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War dec recurrence
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Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#81 - 2016-09-21 09:46:54 UTC
im not going around this roundabout again with you drac ,
you're so thoroughly concussed with the wrong end of this particular stick that explaining it again
would be a waste of both our time.

but ill point this out ,
we stopped soliciting business
not
hunting and killing.
that we still do as much as any of have the patience for.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#82 - 2016-09-21 11:07:03 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Yes we have a different opinion, I was keeping a close eye on war dec entities for some time, and I noticed that there was more people doing hub and pipe camping. The change to pipe and hub camping was largely occuring because there was less people operating in a noob way in hisec and also due to the push by certain war dec entities to be the biggest in hisec, in which having lots of targets is the key part to keep their players occupied.

That some players like yourself stopped hunnting and killing after the watch list changes is understandable, but the shift was already in place.

You were a merc focussed on your war decs, I was analysing killboards of the major war deccers and watching them operating, I know what I saw.


You see what you want to see.

Simple fact here is CCP have removed the tools required for targeted merc jobs so all they can do now is blanket dec. Mercs need buffs to their profession not more nerfs.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#83 - 2016-09-21 12:20:04 UTC
All CCP removed was the way to magically see if someone was online. They can still use locator agents to track down where people hang out and they can still declare war and shoot people. They just need to put in a bit of effort now instead of being handed free intel.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#84 - 2016-09-21 12:21:37 UTC
It is like a broken record...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#85 - 2016-09-21 12:32:06 UTC
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#86 - 2016-09-21 12:34:03 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
It is like a broken record...
Depends on how it's broken, they don't all loop you know. Some just skip or have a lot of noise.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#87 - 2016-09-21 13:09:45 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
It is like a broken record...
Depends on how it's broken, they don't all loop you know. Some just skip or have a lot of noise.

All of the above - lots of repeating, skipping, and white noise.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#88 - 2016-09-21 13:13:24 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
im not going around this roundabout again with you drac ,
you're so thoroughly concussed with the wrong end of this particular stick that explaining it again
would be a waste of both our time.

but ill point this out ,
we stopped soliciting business
not
hunting and killing.
that we still do as much as any of have the patience for.



As I said you have your opinion and I have mine.

Glad to see you are still hunting and killing.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#89 - 2016-09-21 13:18:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Yes we have a different opinion, I was keeping a close eye on war dec entities for some time, and I noticed that there was more people doing hub and pipe camping. The change to pipe and hub camping was largely occuring because there was less people operating in a noob way in hisec and also due to the push by certain war dec entities to be the biggest in hisec, in which having lots of targets is the key part to keep their players occupied.

That some players like yourself stopped hunnting and killing after the watch list changes is understandable, but the shift was already in place.

You were a merc focussed on your war decs, I was analysing killboards of the major war deccers and watching them operating, I know what I saw.


You see what you want to see.

Simple fact here is CCP have removed the tools required for targeted merc jobs so all they can do now is blanket dec. Mercs need buffs to their profession not more nerfs.


As I would prefer to see war decs used for local disputes in small fun wars I have to say it was a necessary evil, as many have pointed out it was done to stop people using it to keep a watch on each others cap fleets, and was blocking content. On the other side it made dealing with AFK cloaky camping a lot more difficult because the best way was to have the lazy BLOP's pilots on the watch list.

Still I would be happy for the locator agents to say, but Joe Bloggs seems to be inactive, or Joe Blogs is active at the moment in time. I would prefer my OS per constellation suggestion but it is CCP we are talking about here, they can't even get Citadels right or give us any information on indy structures... They cannot balance ganking and war decs either, though war decs is perhaps more to do with the risk averse HTFU players then CCP...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#90 - 2016-09-21 14:36:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
All CCP removed was the way to magically see if someone was online. They can still use locator agents to track down where people hang out and they can still declare war and shoot people. They just need to put in a bit of effort now instead of being handed free intel.

Sure, I'd like to see go through a 100 man corp, locating 1 per 10 minutes, with no possible way to tell whether they're even active or not.
Valkin Mordirc
#91 - 2016-09-21 15:01:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
Lucas Kell wrote:
All CCP removed was the way to magically see if someone was online. They can still use locator agents to track down where people hang out and they can still declare war and shoot people. They just need to put in a bit of effort now instead of being handed free intel.



Not really.


You basically have no idea if this person is online. If you make a random guess. And your wrong. You have to run another locate. And another and another and another. Until you finally find somebody whose online.


I don't like chasing ghosts.


Or you convo spam which is ******** that you have to do something so roundabout in order to get content.


Because that's the thing. There's only a certain amount of work people are willing to put in. And the way the system is set up. To even get a kill requires a huge amount of work compared to before, and it's not guarantied that it's even going to worth the time to do it.

If I spent 3 hours and managed to kill someone's barghest. I would be pretty happy with myself. However if I spent three hours and killed somebodies merlin. I would be pretty down about the waste of time that was put into that merlin. Now if I spent three hours looking for a Barghest only to find out he went offline two hours a go. I wouldn't even bother doing it again. Because **** that.

I'd just watch pipes, mission area's and hub or go troll around in lowsec. Not doing what I prefer to do because the system flawed even more then before.
#DeleteTheWeak
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#92 - 2016-09-21 15:22:19 UTC
Hengle Teron wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
All CCP removed was the way to magically see if someone was online. They can still use locator agents to track down where people hang out and they can still declare war and shoot people. They just need to put in a bit of effort now instead of being handed free intel.

Sure, I'd like to see go through a 100 man corp, locating 1 per 10 minutes, with no possible way to tell whether they're even active or not.


Or you can go to lowsec or 0.0 and have some fun there, hold on I see you are in CVA, perhaps you like Honourable Third Parties... Question

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#93 - 2016-09-21 15:44:11 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Hengle Teron wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
All CCP removed was the way to magically see if someone was online. They can still use locator agents to track down where people hang out and they can still declare war and shoot people. They just need to put in a bit of effort now instead of being handed free intel.

Sure, I'd like to see go through a 100 man corp, locating 1 per 10 minutes, with no possible way to tell whether they're even active or not.


Or you can go to lowsec or 0.0 and have some fun there, hold on I see you are in CVA, perhaps you like Honourable Third Parties... Question

Nice try, but I find their gameplay as legit as any other.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#94 - 2016-09-21 15:46:22 UTC
Hengle Teron wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
All CCP removed was the way to magically see if someone was online. They can still use locator agents to track down where people hang out and they can still declare war and shoot people. They just need to put in a bit of effort now instead of being handed free intel.
Sure, I'd like to see go through a 100 man corp, locating 1 per 10 minutes, with no possible way to tell whether they're even active or not.
One assumes that before you declar war, you gather intel on likely active players and locations, unless of course you are randomly declaring war in which case it's your own fault for not gathering intel. I also find it hard to believe that if you declared war on a 100 man corp that there's only one of you able to use one locator agent at a time.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#95 - 2016-09-21 15:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
You basically have no idea if this person is online. If you make a random guess. And your wrong. You have to run another locate. And another and another and another. Until you finally find somebody whose online.
OK, I don't really see the problem there. Basically you're saying "Before I didn't have to do anything to gather intel, now I have to do stuff!". Personally I'd track their information on killboards and public API looking for changes that indicate activity. Mission runners for example are pretty straight forward, you track their sec status and get your intel tool to not when it changes and build a pattern up for when they are online, then it's a case of tracking down their usual mission locations are and scouting with an alt.

Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Because that's the thing. There's only a certain amount of work people are willing to put in. And the way the system is set up. To even get a kill requires a huge amount of work compared to before, and it's not guarantied that it's even going to worth the time to do it.
That sounds like a problem with target selection though. If you pick a target who is 100% committed to evading you, it should be hard for you to get a kill. Why should you get free intel to make it easier to track them down?

Valkin Mordirc wrote:
If I spent 3 hours and managed to kill someone's barghest. I would be pretty happy with myself. However if I spent three hours and killed somebodies merlin. I would be pretty down about the waste of time that was put into that merlin. Now if I spent three hours looking for a Barghest only to find out he went offline two hours a go. I wouldn't even bother doing it again. Because **** that.
So don't do it. If your entire playstyle is only fun if the system hands you free intel to make it easy to chase your targets, it honestly sounds like you've picked the wrong playstyle.

Edit: also, it shouldn't take you 3 hours. Once you get to the system he's supposed to be in and run one more locator agent that confirms he's in that system, you know he's offline.

Valkin Mordirc wrote:
I'd just watch pipes, mission area's and hub or go troll around in lowsec. Not doing what I prefer to do because the system flawed even more then before.
Alternatively you could simply pick targets who are willing and able to fight back.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#96 - 2016-09-21 16:40:00 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
lucas you just don't see that this being generic advice makes it dangerous, what if everyone took this advice and dropped corp in high sec
That would be a glorious day. There is no point in having a highsec corp unless you need to hold assets, use as 1 man corps to avoid tax for mission character, want to actively participate in wars or to use as a shell corp (like red-frog). The vast majority of highsec players in corps would be better off dropping corp and operating from an NPC corp. If enough people actually did that CCP might get around to actually fixing highsec corps so they are remotely useful.

xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
less corps to dec makes those who dec bored and unsub
Good. Those players simply farming easy kills aren't what I consider an important part of the community.

xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
just drop corp. it's his only option when it's not.
At no point did I say it's the only option, it's just the best option 99% of the time.

xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
but i'm in a rage over it.
Indeed you are.



lucas, what a feckin troll and mis-quoting asshat you are.

I'm in no rage over this, you need to get a grip of yourself.

you where an asshat in SMA and you still are.

a corp is a corp no matter where it lives you gobshtie or are all corps to now be as lucas wants them to be?

don't answer,,, i'm done trying to communicate with you, you're beyond reason and full of shite.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#97 - 2016-09-21 17:32:55 UTC
Its funny, he complains about blanket wardecs yet supports the removal of the tools that allowed for targeted wardecs.

Its a prime example of CCP listening to people like this, removing something and then finding they made the situation worse for everyone.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#98 - 2016-09-21 17:50:17 UTC
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
lucas, what a feckin troll and mis-quoting asshat you are.
None of that was a torll or a misquote and I've reported you for this personal attack.
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
I'm in no rage over this, you need to get a grip of yourself.
Uh...
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
you where an asshat in SMA and you still are.

a corp is a corp no matter where it lives you gobshtie or are all corps to now be as lucas wants them to be?

don't answer,,, i'm done trying to communicate with you, you're beyond reason and full of shite.

Are you sure? Most calm people don't lob quite this many insults at people over a suggestion that someone could simply use a different aspect of the game.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#99 - 2016-09-21 17:59:53 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
a suggestion that someone could simply use a different aspect of the game.

So if we eventually just remove high-sec wars entirely by putting everyone in NPC corps - does that mean everyone who wants to kill anybody in high sec for any reason *has* to start suicide ganking as their only remaining play-style?

You should be a recruiter for CODE.

Lucas Kell wrote:
The End Of Your Play Style Draws Near!
Join CODE. Before It Is Too Late!
The Only Remaining Way To Fight In High Sec!!!
ShockedShockedShocked

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#100 - 2016-09-21 18:01:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Its funny, he complains about blanket wardecs yet supports the removal of the tools that allowed for targeted wardecs.
Removing watchlists didn't "remove the tools that allowed for targeted wardecs". It simply meant you have to work for intel rather than get spoonfed it.

baltec1 wrote:
Its a prime example of CCP listening to people like this, removing something and then finding they made the situation worse for everyone.
They didn't. I don't see particularly more blanket wardecs now than there used to be, certainly not a drastic increase, and the number of wardecs so far this year is about on average with the last couple of years. Plus this change wasn't pushed for by people against wardecs, it was pushed for as a way to combat free intel on supercap logins.

The reality is that CCP did something that wardeccers don't like so wardeccers try to go out of their way to make it look like it's made the situation worse so they can pretend that what they really need is buffs. Its the same with ganking. Ganking gents nerfed so gankers try as hard as they can to gank more, as if CCP will just go "whoa, we made this change and ganking went up, I guess we better buff ganking". If by some miracle wardeccers managed to blanket wardec enough people to make the situation worse, all it;s likely to do is get them hit with the nerf bat.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.