EVE General Discussion

Indeed - though it is really an extra-moot point as he retired several years ago apparently

He may have to start working again now of course - depends how much of his RL earnings from EVE he managed to save up...

Whether or not CCP runs the gambling sites isn't relevant to any of my points, so I've ignored it. The core of my point here is that in-game ISK, legally speaking, has no value, regardless of some people's passionate feelings to the contrary. It doesn't matter if CCP is running the gambling sites because of that fact alone.

PLEX is, with the exception of the graphics card one-off, only exchangeable for things CCP provides. The tour is provided by CCP as part of Fanfest, not as a separate thing. It's only available through CCP.

Also the dollar values are not clearly defined because... you can't convert your ISK into money! You can buy PLEX and convert that into a very few things offered by CCP, but that's it.

Also if you'll note from my example the legal definition of gambling requires that you be gaining something of value, which ISK is not. IWI doesn't use tokens, they use Eve ISK. Just because it's on another site doesn't change this, when I see something in $ on someone's site it's in US Dollars even though it's not affiliated with the US government.

You're claiming that it has a real world dollar value, but that link is entirely reliant on CCP's pricing, and as I've pointed out repeatedly nothing here is enough to establish anything done in-game as a source of income for tax purposes, so why is your value definition enough for it to be gambling but not enough for my ratting or ganks to be taxed?



Possibly, you have to buy those arcade tokens and those tokens still have value because they can be used to play games at the arcade. You're also using a physical item which has an intrinsic value even if it's not very high. Also most arcade tokens are just physical stand-ins for quarters, which further allows a lawyer to say that they have physical value. It's not 100% clear cut though, and a lawyer could definitely argue that if the tokens can't be used elsewhere and can't be traded for anything of value that you're not legally running a gambling operation.

BTW fun fact, Chuck-e-Cheese has nearly been sued under gambling laws, and several local authorities have issued public statements specifically stating that they are not going to enforce local gambling statutes against the company even though it may technically be in violation of them.

So yeah, in short I think your example kind of proves my point. If you can find an example of legal action being taken against an arcade for something like this though then I'd love to read about it.



It's almost certain that they've already done exactly this already, and determined that as long as you can't sell ISK for RL money then they're fine, since most gambling legislation requires that the things won have real value, so that the laws can't be abused to go after purely recreational games of chance.

The really short version of my point is simple: It is *not* in-game isk. isk doesn't come from I Want Isk's website. Thus - you aren't discussing reality - you are only talking about your fantasy world where CCP is running the gambling sites inside EVE.

So what you're saying is "Let's make it simple, you stop having an opinion and we'll wait for a lawsuit that probably isn't even happening". No thanks, I think I'll continue having the opinion that ISK has real world value just like Fifa coins.

Look at the current lawsuit and say that again with a straight unbiased face.

Completely unregulated gambling? Even if that is the case in some states, the moment those same places then extended themselves to allow gambling from the UK they will find themselves in the firing line from UK law. IWI also operates out of Florida I believe, which has gambling regulations.

I didn't call you names, I accused you of talking down to me, which you did. If you don't care about ISK gambling then why do you seem so desperate to find a loophole?

Do you have a link or something about the HQ move to London?

Or any other info cheers.

That affiliation doesn't matter, it's whether or not the tokens in this case can be proven to have value. It would really depend on the setup at the arcade, how it provides the tokens, and what those tokens can be used for.



It's actually only potentially violating gambling laws because you win tickets which can be exchanged for prizes. Eve has nothing of the sort, neither does IWI or similar sites.



I get the point you're trying to make, I just don't agree with your logic and the idea that you have "proven" that ISK has value, it doesn't. It doesn't matter if IWI is affiliated with CCP any more than it matters if I set up a poker table outside on a street corner using monopoly money when I'm not affiliated with the maker of Monopoly. The money being used still has no legal value.

Your argument here is paper thin, and is based entirely on your opinion that ISK in eve has value, but you can't cite any legal precedent to establish this and the closest thing we have is the CS:GO case, where there's no question as to the value of the Skins used, because they literally have dollar values tied directly to them, and the FIFA case where the people running the site were literally linking to a third-party RMT site encouraging people to use it to cash out. Neither of those is really equivalent to IWI, and repeating over and over that I'm wrong isn't going to make it true.

"Digital/Virtual/Crypto currencies" refers to things like Bitcoin and other online-only currencies that are freely convertible to physical money, not game currencies which are not. This is actually specifically called out by the UK gambling enforcement agency in their whitepaper.

Some game currencies definitely do have money's worth (Second Life comes to mind) but only because they're freely convertible to RL money.

So now rather than saying that the EULA preventing sale means the in-game currency has no value, you're now saying that it's the act of linking to an illicit RMT site that magically grants value? That's an insane level of mental gymnastics.

So because CCP pick out the date of the tour, the tour is now valueless?

OK, set up a regular gambling site and invite under 18s to gamble, see how you do.

The value of PLEX is listed in dollars too. You can buy services that aren't provided by CCP with PLEX.

But ISK has value, as do Fifa coins it seems.

And no, you didn't link evidence, you have not yet proven that ISK has no value which is what your entire argument balances on. Quite honestly, you must REALLY want to keep ISK gambling around considering how many changes you've made in your argument to fit it to your narrative. Right now you're argument is at a point that if IWI linked to an RMT site, ISK would suddenly have value and their site would be illegal, but since they don't ISK has no value.

Here's a question. If a second site were set up that gambled for ISK and that linked to an RMT site, ISK would now have value. So would IWI suddenly be illegal because the second site has set that precedent? Or would IWI and the second site still both be using ISK but only one be ISK of value?

As for quotes, vOv.

I read through this thread and certainly less qualified than most of the people posting regarding the legalities.

However, I'm unsure what parallel universe some of the people posting live in wherein in-game isk is not convertible to real-world money?

I understand it's not sanctioned by CCP, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's fairly common and easy. I have no doubt that folks that are very active within the game-isk gambling community are also active in the RMT community. Pure speculation, I admit. But it's happened before and I'm sure it's happening now.

It's just a bit difficult to wrap my head around some of the very well thought-out arguments in this thread when they also contain phrases regarding the isk-cash trade as a one-way transaction. That's demonstrably false and any argument based on that seems faulty at it's base.

KB

Irrelevant. Either the currency has value or it doesn't. Linking to a site to sell it doesn't magically change that . You can't sell your poker chips on ebay?

Taxes have nothing to do with it. Gambling legislation isn't based on tax law, it's pretty damn simple, if you gamble for something you could pay money for instead it has value and thus needs to be regulated. If you set up a gambling site to gamble for the tour tickets directly it would absolutely need to be regulated.

Sure it is, because you're of the opinion there is no reason behind the laws than the simple act of havign the laws in place, which is ridiculous. They are there to protect the vulnerable. Trying to get around that won;t work forever.

No, I'm simply debunking all of your reasons that ISK has no value. I mean you'e gone from saying that ISK has no value because it' amounts isn't stated in dollars to ISK has no value because IWI haven't linked to sites to sell it yet. Your entire argument has bben on a wander and changes almost constatnly. The reason fro that is you dont; have an argument, you just have a preconceived conclusion based on your like of EVE gambling sites and you're sticking to it. Hell, you were even incorrectly comparing it to CS:GO skins because you hadn't even look at the case this thread is talking about.

Yeah right, you totally don't love IWI

My logic is sound. Fifa Coins and ISK both have a value and gambling for value needs to be regulated thus EVE gambling site would need to be regulated. In the long run law will catch up with them. You're "logic" is to go "nope!" and they make up some random reason why these two are drastically different.

At no point have I said CCP need to do something. It would be better in the long run if they did, since they are directly linked to these gambling site but I couldn't really care less if they did or not. If they want to roll the dice (pun intended) with the legal system of the country they are setting up a new major office in, that's up to them. I just think it's an interesting topic and shows how legals systems are slowly catching up with the modern day world were the lines have been getting pretty blurry for a while.