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The pointlessness of corps requesting full APIs
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Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#61 - 2016-09-20 21:33:41 UTC
Trusting someone to your API is probably like trusting that plumber you just hired who's supposed to just fix the drain in your bathtub. But since hes at your house while you're at work, he could also go through your.... Delicates.

Shocked

@lunettelulu7
Norrin Zelkarr
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#62 - 2016-09-20 21:53:16 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's because it puts in a minimum level of effort to awox a corp. Like you say, if you're going to to it you'd probably just make another account and skill up an alt. Without an API key you just join with whatever old character and go awox crazy, but with API checks you have to create a new character, fund him without trading or transferring isk, then use him to awox. It's not a magic bullet, but used with other forms of security it means that someone who decides to awox you has to really want to do it.


This. The full API requirement serves three purposes:

1) It's like the old saying regarding locks being a tool for keeping honest people honest. It creates the fear of getting caught doing a bad thing in the people that are basically good until they think they can totally get away with something.

2) Sometimes, you do, in fact, catch spies (albeit bad ones) trying to get into your corp.

3) You know how public officials will do anything to prevent being asked to testify under oath in a congressional hearing? It's because they know the real danger is that they put themselves at risk of perjury when they start trying to be verbally evasive in response to questioning. Similarly, someone who decides to be a spy later in life will often try to jump through hoops to try to clean up their act...but jumping through those hoops can create suspicious activity for people who are looking for it.
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#63 - 2016-09-20 22:21:19 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Simple : If you don't have nothing to hide - why are you not willing to give full api ?
Api itself don't show much if you care about hiding something.

How you can play this game on 1 account, even in higsec it is hard.



Ah yes, this famous reasoning. Just like a bunch of "security" individuals over the years.

Go watch 1984, you should fit right in.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#64 - 2016-09-20 22:44:51 UTC
Incidentally - for everyone who is 100% certain you have nothing to hide - please feel free to *prove* you have nothing to hide by providing me with your full non-expiring API keys for all of your accounts. Corporate keys are welcome as well.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#65 - 2016-09-20 22:45:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
Ah yes, this famous reasoning. Just like a bunch of "security" individuals over the years.

Go watch 1984, you should fit right in.


You do realize this is a video game, right? Real life examples are meaningless

Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Incidentally - for everyone who is 100% certain you have nothing to hide - please feel free to *prove* you have nothing to hide by providing me with your full non-expiring API keys for all of your accounts. Corporate keys are welcome as well.


Don't be ridiculous. Nothing to hide to the people you choose to fly and fleet with for the next few years.

You know that's what's meant as well as the rest of us.
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#66 - 2016-09-20 23:05:31 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
Ah yes, this famous reasoning. Just like a bunch of "security" individuals over the years.

Go watch 1984, you should fit right in.


You do realize this is a video game, right? Real life examples are meaningless

.



No, they are not.
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#67 - 2016-09-20 23:15:28 UTC
In all seriousness, here's why I kind of agree that the blanket belief that corporations without API checks are considered bad is outdated:

  • You can simply shut off friendly fire.

  • Citadels have made it so that if your corporation has to live out of a tower before (wormholers) you don't have to try to sort out that dumb role management screen.

    • Okay here's the other side of the coin:

  • You fly spaceships that are worth like $35+ in PLEX if you lost it on a day to day basis. Like, super serious elite endgame stuff.

    • So I guess it depends on what kind of game you play. I think it would be a super bad idea if you were to go around advertising how you let anyone in without an API key check but maybe for some kinds of gameplay - that actually might work. Solo frigate pirate types like Stay Frosty come to mind. Or maybe even a group like Signal Cartel. They'd ban you in a second if you violate their credo in any way.

    So unless your gameplay is the high end capital memelord r/eve type; what else without roles can they spy on? How much fun per hour you're having? At best?

    @lunettelulu7
    Blade Darth
    Room for Improvement
    Good Sax
    #68 - 2016-09-20 23:28:30 UTC
    The simulation hypothesis is still on the table so first you have to define which layer of reality you referring to. *grabs peanuts*


    As Lelu Luna mentioned, everything depends how serious you wanna be.
    In a (true) sandbox your gameplay can get as close to real life as you let it to (so "real life" examples do work very good, ie. economics, counterintelligence, psychology and so on in eve)

    Omen Navy Issue Tutorial
    Sonya Corvinus
    Grant Village
    #69 - 2016-09-20 23:55:17 UTC
    oiukhp Muvila wrote:
    No, they are not.


    If you honestly think actions in a video game are mirrors of actions IRL, you need to get out more.
    PopeUrban
    El Expedicion
    Flames of Exile
    #70 - 2016-09-21 00:38:56 UTC
    I'm of the opinion that in order to really trust someone you have to give them multiple opportunities to **** you over.

    Asking people for API keys limits their ability to **** you over.

    Thus it complicates the entire process of finding solid recruits.You can't realistically spot a traitor until you've given them a solid opportunity to actually be a traitor.

    There are far more effective ways than API keys to curb the influence of insurgents, chief among them being tighter operational and information security.

    That API key gives a false sense of security that's probably going to make you less likely to defend successfully against someone who really is malicious and patient enough to cause you serious harm.
    Aaron Kabashiz
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #71 - 2016-09-21 07:51:11 UTC
    To OP, remeber that API can be deleted and made new.
    As soon as a Corp ask you for full API and you give it to them they will check. After check just delete it and create a new one, they will never know what you do after you gave it.

    Hope I explained, not english speaker here.
    Mephiztopheleze
    Laphroaig Inc.
    #72 - 2016-09-21 08:22:58 UTC
    APIs can be useful to see at a glance what your potential new recruit can fly and how they'll fit in with general corp doctrines off the bat. Generally, after a week, no-one really looks at your API again unless you give them a reason to get suspicious.

    They can also be useful to find out if someone has bought their character or trained it from scratch.

    As far as being a spycatcher, only the dumb spies who can't follow basic opsec will get caught out on an API check. They're not generally the spies you should worry about.

    Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

    This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
    Toobo
    Project Fruit House
    #73 - 2016-09-21 08:24:02 UTC
    Think of it this way - what would you do if you were the leader of corp/alliance that owns hundreds of billions (or even trillions) of assets in space and in corp hangars. What would you do if a single high level traitor can lead your super cap and titan fleet to a certain death trap.

    I don't like API thing eiher, but paranoia is easily understandable. Likr I said in previous post, in my corp anyone who has a role that can hurt the corp is a RL friend whom we can gank IRL if sh*ts go wrong.

    Disclaimer: we never violenced anyone IRL because of in game stuff. Saying this just so we don't get reported lol.

    Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
    Lan Wang
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #74 - 2016-09-21 08:27:55 UTC
    Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
    Incidentally - for everyone who is 100% certain you have nothing to hide - please feel free to *prove* you have nothing to hide by providing me with your full non-expiring API keys for all of your accounts. Corporate keys are welcome as well.


    why would we do that? we dont want to join your corp

    Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

    Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
    Lan Wang
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #75 - 2016-09-21 08:30:56 UTC
    Aaron Kabashiz wrote:
    To OP, remeber that API can be deleted and made new.
    As soon as a Corp ask you for full API and you give it to them they will check. After check just delete it and create a new one, they will never know what you do after you gave it.

    Hope I explained, not english speaker here.


    that doesnt work for a lot of people....websites, forums, ts, tools etc all use api verification these days

    Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

    Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
    Lacori
    Doomheim
    #76 - 2016-09-21 10:51:48 UTC
    Aaron Kabashiz wrote:
    To OP, remeber that API can be deleted and made new.
    As soon as a Corp ask you for full API and you give it to them they will check. After check just delete it and create a new one, they will never know what you do after you gave it.

    Hope I explained, not english speaker here.


    Clearly you don't have the same experience as I.

    Here is the exact corp mandate from a corp I joined (for about five minutes).

    Quote:
    1) Full APIs will be disclosed to the Recruiter. Do not disclose your API to anyone other than corpmembers who bear the title 'Recruiter'. Any will suffice for this purpose.

    2) By Full API, we mean FULL ACCOUNT APIs, with EVERY highlightable field CHECKED in EVERY CATEGORY for EVERY CHARACTER on the account. Your details will be checked and if a SINGLE field has not been checked, your application will be rejected.

    3) We will then study your API for a period of no more than three days, assessing your skills, financial situation and communication and/or trades with other players. If you have gives ISK or created contracts with other players, we will need details about them also. Failure to divulge this information will result in your application being rejected.

    4) If you run more than one account we will require the FULL ACCOUNT APIs on ALL of these accounts, to see how you interact with the characters on these accounts. If you fail to divulge this information and we subsequently discover that you are using multiple accounts, be it by a conversation, contract or direct trade, your corp membership will be IMMEDIATELY terminated. If you have roles at this point, the roles will be IMMEDIATELY terminated and you will be dismissed from the corp at the very earliest opportunity.

    5) Your API credentials will be checked on a DAILY basis by a rota of moderators. We check every member and if we fail to get access to the API of any particular character your corp membership will be REVOKED INSTANTLY, without explanation.

    6) We require your IP address so we can check for nefarious behaviour on systems that run outside of the game client, such as Mumble, Jabber, Teamspeak, Discord and other third-party voice communication software. If you are knowingly aware at any point that your IP address has changed, please inform us at the earliest opportunity.

    7) We require details of ALL profiles used on forums pertaining to Eve Online, excluding your own personal social media accounts and forum profiles not affiliated with Eve Online.

    8) Teamspeak is mandatory. We expect you to log in to it simultaneously when you run your Eve Online client. If you are found to be running your Eve client without running your TS client within five minutes of logging, one of our corp moderators will initiate a conversation with you. Similarly we ask that you do not run your TS client without running Eve also.

    9) Fly safe and have fun :) We are always here to help


    I especially like the last one. Have fun, with whatever privacy we've left you with.

    This was a 30 man corp. When I logged, only 5 had been online within the last month. Only I was online, four of the five times I logged in. The one time I did log when someone else was on, there was only one other toon who had joined the day after me. I waved. He said nothing.
    Lan Wang
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #77 - 2016-09-21 11:20:15 UTC
    well those are the most silly requirements ive ever seen, ip address, telling them who you are trading with, thats pretty laughable tbh, good luck to that corp and the ego pushing agenda

    Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

    Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
    Elenahina
    No.Mercy
    Triumvirate.
    #78 - 2016-09-21 11:35:41 UTC
    Toobo wrote:
    Think of it this way - what would you do if you were the leader of corp/alliance that owns hundreds of billions (or even trillions) of assets in space and in corp hangars. What would you do if a single high level traitor can lead your super cap and titan fleet to a certain death trap.

    I don't like API thing eiher, but paranoia is easily understandable. Likr I said in previous post, in my corp anyone who has a role that can hurt the corp is a RL friend whom we can gank IRL if sh*ts go wrong.

    Disclaimer: we never violenced anyone IRL because of in game stuff. Saying this just so we don't get reported lol.


    Never trust anyone in Eve you can't kick in the nuts in real life.

    Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
    Scipio Artelius
    Weaponised Vegemite
    Flying Dangerous
    #79 - 2016-09-21 11:41:58 UTC
    Elenahina wrote:
    Toobo wrote:
    Think of it this way - what would you do if you were the leader of corp/alliance that owns hundreds of billions (or even trillions) of assets in space and in corp hangars. What would you do if a single high level traitor can lead your super cap and titan fleet to a certain death trap.

    I don't like API thing eiher, but paranoia is easily understandable. Likr I said in previous post, in my corp anyone who has a role that can hurt the corp is a RL friend whom we can gank IRL if sh*ts go wrong.

    Disclaimer: we never violenced anyone IRL because of in game stuff. Saying this just so we don't get reported lol.


    Never trust anyone in Eve you can't kick in the nuts in real life.

    Some of the most trustworthy players I know in the game don't have any nuts to kick. They're awesome people though.
    Elenahina
    No.Mercy
    Triumvirate.
    #80 - 2016-09-21 12:08:07 UTC
    Scipio Artelius wrote:
    Elenahina wrote:
    Toobo wrote:
    Think of it this way - what would you do if you were the leader of corp/alliance that owns hundreds of billions (or even trillions) of assets in space and in corp hangars. What would you do if a single high level traitor can lead your super cap and titan fleet to a certain death trap.

    I don't like API thing eiher, but paranoia is easily understandable. Likr I said in previous post, in my corp anyone who has a role that can hurt the corp is a RL friend whom we can gank IRL if sh*ts go wrong.

    Disclaimer: we never violenced anyone IRL because of in game stuff. Saying this just so we don't get reported lol.


    Never trust anyone in Eve you can't kick in the nuts in real life.

    Some of the most trustworthy players I know in the game don't have any nuts to kick. They're awesome people though.


    Eh. I trust my corpmates. it's easier to trust people though when they have a stake in what's happening as well.

    Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno