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Gambling

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Author
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#21 - 2016-09-16 17:20:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Most of the concern is that children and teens are being encouraged to gamble, yet the powers that be in the UK do nothing about the constant stream of gambling adverts that invade every home through the TV after 9PM, when many teens, and indeed some children, are still watching.

Personally I think gambling ads on should go the same way as smoking ads, be banned altogether.

The same could be said for Alchohol or any other addiction-causing product (be it a physical item or an activity like gambling).

The primary difference being that if the child steals their parent's credit card and shows up at the gambling venues being advertised on television they will be sent back home and not allowed to actually participate. Where in online/video game gambling they will be welcomed with open arms as long as the credit card works.


edit: The fact that this is so hard to enforce on a case-by-case basis is in fact one of the primary reasons that *unregulated* gambling is just declared illegal, no questions asked. (though not the *only* reason)
Most of the advertising spam for gambling that comes through the TV in the UK is for online gambling via apps, not physical premises where it's obvious that a person is underage and not allowed to participate.

The only safeguard against the apps being used by underage gamblers is probably a tickbox, saying "I'm over 18, honest guv" on the signup page.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#22 - 2016-09-16 17:27:23 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Most of the advertising spam for gambling that comes through the TV in the UK is for online gambling via apps, not physical premises where it's obvious that a person is underage and not allowed to participate.

The only safeguard against the apps being used by underage gamblers is probably a tickbox on the signup page.

Fair enough - and you are correct: *Legal* online gambling sites take no precautions against underage gamblers beyond making them click that little tick-box.

However - by going through the process of becoming *licenced* gambling institutions and putting that little checkbox on the web-page they *do* become "regulated", legal gambling establishments. After that all liability for underage gambling falls to those who lie when they check the little box or their legal guardians - unless someone can prove that the gambling site *knew* they were lying and took no action (very hard to prove).



If a video-game gambling site went through the paperwork to become a *legally recognized* and "regulated" gambling site, they would be 100% untouchable from a legal standpoint.

They could even just use the video game theme and gamble for straight-up cash $$$ if they wanted.

However, they would probably lose many of their casual gaming customers, who may be children or may just be adults who like to pretend they "aren't really gambling" because it is just video game assets. Neither of which would be able/interested in gambling in an officially recognized casino.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#23 - 2016-09-16 17:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
For the UK Specifically

Specifically:

Quote:
The UK Gambling Commission & The Gambling Act 2005
The Gambling Commission was established under the terms of the Gambling Act of 2005, assuming its full power two years later. It took over many of the responsibilities previously held by the Gaming Board for Great Britain, and it also became responsible for the regulation of online gambling. Additionally, in 2013 it took over regulation of the National Lottery from the National Lottery Commission.

According to the Gambling Act of 2005, the Gambling Commission has the power to issue a license to gambling operators and impose fines or revoke licenses if necessary. The act states the objectives of the Gambling Commission to be as follows:


  • Preventing gambling from becoming a source of crime or disorder, being associated with crime or disorder, or being used to support crime
  • Ensuring that gambling is conducted in a fair and open way
  • Protecting children and other vulnerable persons from being harmed or exploited by gambling.


When it comes to providing online gambling services to UK residents, only companies whose operations are based in the UK can be issued with licenses by the Gambling Commission. However, the organization has a whitelist of approved gambling jurisdictions. Operators who obtain licenses from within those jurisdictions may also service UK customers.




So #1: By becoming officially licenced they certify that the UK Gambling Commission has gone through their website setup and verified it isn't rigged in some way.
#2: They include the check box to "keep children out" - which at least makes parents feel better P


And #3: If you don't have a license from the UK Gambling Commission - You *can not legally let anybody from the UK gamble on your site*. Period.


So as I said in a previous post - if one accepts that it is in fact "gambling" - then it is 100% illegal. There is no gray area, and no room for discussion. Because the video game gambling sites certainly don't have licenses from all the countries they serve.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#24 - 2016-09-17 08:18:44 UTC
The worst that can happen is you cannot log onto EVE gambling sites via UK ISP, much like I cannot connect to Ladbrokes from the country I'm living in now (along with other popular/well-known p0rn sites...).

But such blocks are trivially bypassed using VPN, and where no RL cash was circulated between the UK resident gambler and EVE gambling sites, I do not foresee that these transgressions will be monitored and clamped down that heavily.

Of course, I do not advise you break your local laws to access banned sites, but this is something that happens in massive scale everyday on the Internet, people bypassing the barriers to access that their local government has ruled 'illegal'.

In any case, my point is that UK ruling has no effect on non-UK residents, and only trivial effect even for UK residents if you are willing to bypass the laws.

There are tons of 'illegal' gambling sites operating on the Internet, frequently switching server locations and such. Most governments I have seen have been pretty damn ineffective in controlling Internet access to such things.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#25 - 2016-09-17 13:35:45 UTC
Toobo wrote:
The worst that can happen is you cannot log onto EVE gambling sites via UK ISP, much like I cannot connect to Ladbrokes from the country I'm living in now (along with other popular/well-known p0rn sites...).

But such blocks are trivially bypassed using VPN, and where no RL cash was circulated between the UK resident gambler and EVE gambling sites, I do not foresee that these transgressions will be monitored and clamped down that heavily.

Of course, I do not advise you break your local laws to access banned sites, but this is something that happens in massive scale everyday on the Internet, people bypassing the barriers to access that their local government has ruled 'illegal'.

In any case, my point is that UK ruling has no effect on non-UK residents, and only trivial effect even for UK residents if you are willing to bypass the laws.

There are tons of 'illegal' gambling sites operating on the Internet, frequently switching server locations and such. Most governments I have seen have been pretty damn ineffective in controlling Internet access to such things.

I agree - at least until they officially start monitoring everything everyone does on the internet to police such things (tinfoil hat anyone?) P

However the people who *run* the sites are easy enough to track down - because they haven't thought it through, so they don't run their video-game gambling sites like illegal/underground gambling sites hosted in countries that won't bother them w/ filters to protect their identities/etc. They operate right out in the open where they are pitifully easy to find/catch - if anyone cared enough to do so. And they are the ones that the government would want to target - because they are the ones making profit that should legally be taxed (turns out greed is a primary motivator of government/judicial departments)

Now, governments/courts operating as they do...plus the mess of international law... Who knows if/when anybody will get around to actually *enforcing* the laws. But the CS:GO case sets a precedent - and people involved in such things might be wise to follow the case and see how it turns out, at the very least.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#26 - 2016-09-17 13:40:14 UTC
Now that being said I personally have no idea why anybody would want to go to an illegal/unregulated gambling site that may very well be rigged...when they live in an area that allows them to openly gamble at sites that are certified to be *not* rigged...

But some people like breaking the rules/laws even when it is against their own best interests I guess...

(and yes, I know some people don't live in areas like the UK where it is legal - but that is a separate topic)

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
Brave Collective
#27 - 2016-09-17 21:25:06 UTC
Gambling is a cancer that wreaks havoc on personal, social and economic life.
Exposing children to it is an atrocity.
Any state that supports it is a victim, tax exemptions for casinos are a sign the state is willing to bleed in the hope of a drink.
Every gambler is a victim. Any winners are just more bait.
Setting up a casino 'just across the border' allows monsters to launder the money they stole from the living.
I don't think any of this is over the top, it's important to keep this in mind while not stamping down hard enough to drive it underground, where it becomes invisible and invades political life.
The way Las Vegas has been mythologised and normalised, when it is nothing but a machine for cleaning criminal's money is incredible. There's versions all over the world.
Anyone who touches gambling is a self-destructive idiot or a greedy idiot or both.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#28 - 2016-09-17 22:20:15 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
So #1: By becoming officially licenced they certify that the UK Gambling Commission has gone through their website setup and verified it isn't rigged in some way.
All gambling is rigged, hence the saying that the house always wins.

What the gambling commission does is make sure that the odds aren't excessively rigged, and take a payoff to ignore the inconvenient truth above.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#29 - 2016-09-17 22:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
So #1: By becoming officially licenced they certify that the UK Gambling Commission has gone through their website setup and verified it isn't rigged in some way.
All gambling is rigged, hence the saying that the house always wins.

What the gambling commission does is make sure that the odds aren't excessively rigged, and take a payoff to ignore the inconvenient truth above.

There is a difference between the odds favouring the house and being rigged. Being rigged = the house can *decide* who wins or loses and when.

Odds always favour the house because otherwise there would be no reason for them to run the gambling operation in the first place... But if the game is rigged then only the people the house likes wins - and if that isn't you you are guaranteed to lose. You don't even have an infinitesimal chance of actually winning long-term (though they may string you along with some early easy wins). For some reason this bothers people - and before the government regulated it it tended to be settled with violence and murder more often than not. But of course there was no "online" gambling back then.

*none* of which is relevant to whether video-game gambling sites are truly gambling, and thus illegal.


If you want to debate the morality of gambling, you'll get no argument from me it is a fool's occupation. But really it isn't related to the OP, so you should probably start your own thread. Either way, ISD will probably lock it for debating a controversial RL issue.


If you want to *do* something about gambling in the sense of eliminating all gambling from the world entirely....well...that would be an issue to take up with your local government. Not something that can productively be acted on within a video game forum.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Perkin Warbeck
Strix Ridens
#30 - 2016-09-19 10:36:11 UTC
It's probably worth noting that any UK or EU law could only really legislate against those sites that are owned or operated in the UK or Europe. In this case most EvE gambling sites would probably be unaffected.

Yes they could try and block access to such sites (in the same way as piracy sites sometimes are) but these measures are pretty ineffective at the best of times.
Satchel Darkmatter
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#31 - 2016-09-19 10:46:38 UTC
With CCP moving their HQ to the UK they could find themselves in the firing line since they do not forbid or do anything to counter gambling, combine that with the coming free to play Alpha state clones and the inevitable influx of younger players and it could be a recipe for disaster.

I think it might be time for CCP to actually make a decision on this.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#32 - 2016-09-19 12:55:12 UTC
A couple of things occur to me.
First, when you "buy a PLEX" with real money, you do not actually own the PLEX. The EULA states that all in-game assets are actually owned by CCP. What you are really buying is the right to manipulate data on a server.

But, does that right to manipulate data have real world value? Yes it does. You can use that right to obtain additional time on the server. (Win ISK, exchange it for PLEX, PLEX your account.) Sometimes CCP allows PLEX to be used for other real world purchases. For example, I attended Eve Vegas via PLEX, and got two spaceship models as a result.

Thus, I conclude the Eve gambling sites are allowing you to gamble with something that has real world value.

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Anthar Thebess
#33 - 2016-09-19 13:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
The problem with gambling sites it that they are addictive.
Person who visit virtual ones will get to real ones eventually - this is by his own choice, but problem is that eve is not mature persons only.
I think that current minimum age requirements is 13 years - kids are much likely to get hooked, especially that it don't cost them money (alfa clones after nov)

Information's about eve based gambling sites are every where, the moment i jump in to jita i get spammed about them in local, sometimes i even get PM about how "good they are" - for me as long kids are allowed to play this game - all advertising of the gambling should be strictly prohibited, even just by EULA.
Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#34 - 2016-09-19 14:02:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
I think that this is one instance where "won't somebody think of the children" is justly deserved.

In the case of Eve gambling is done with virtual cash that has no real life value, in that the RL currency to virtual currency exchange is one way only, but given that some players are under the age required to gamble in the real world I think that CCP do need to look into some kind of regulation before real world regulators do it for them, to the detriment of everybody.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.

Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#35 - 2016-09-19 14:24:34 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:

Anyone who touches gambling is a self-destructive idiot or a greedy idiot or both.




Or someone else who is ok with "spending" $50 on a few hours of entertainment on shiny lights and loud noises.

Your mindset is common among people who think the point of gambling is to make money. One look at the odds should be enough to know it's simply entertainment.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#36 - 2016-09-19 14:36:08 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:

Anyone who touches gambling is a self-destructive idiot or a greedy idiot or both.




Or someone else who is ok with "spending" $50 on a few hours of entertainment on shiny lights and loud noises.

Your mindset is common among people who think the point of gambling is to make money. One look at the odds should be enough to know it's simply entertainment.
People with gambling problems tend to come from the poorest sectors of society, why is that?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Cade Windstalker
#37 - 2016-09-19 14:38:02 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
Yes really. You may be able to convert money into ISK but there is no officially supported way to change it back, therefor it is not the same as gambling tokens.

EDIT : In the article i'm fairly sure they're talking about CS:GO which officially supports the transition from real money to skins / items and back again hence the legal issue.
Official support is irrelevant to whether or not it's technically and legally able to be converted back, on top of which the conversion back to money is irrelevant. You try setting up an unregulated gambling site that allows you to buy tokens to gamble for non-transferable plane tickets and let me know how you get on.

The concept is that it's irrelevant whether or not it can be turned into currency, it's whether or not the thing being gambled and the thing being gained has value, and since you can buy ISK for cash, it does. On top of which, the regulation behind gambling sites is there to protect people from getting into financial trouble due to gambling too much. Game gambling sites like IWI are unregulated, meaning someone with a gambling addiction has no protection if they choose to go into massive debt to buy plex to go gambling with.

Of course sites with the easiest and quickest steps from items to cash will be looked at first as that's easier for the courts to see as holding value, but in the long run they'll get to EVE gambling sites.


It is not, otherwise every game that allows anything that might be construed as "Gambling" with an in-game resource would qualify as a gambling site. That CS:GO skins had real-world value and could be traded for real-world money makes them, in effect, poker chips.

Just because something has value to a person is not the same thing, legally speaking, as it having monetary value. CCP's TOS specifically states that you can't legally convert in-game items to money and doing so gets you banned.

The legislation these two are being charged under states, in Section 6.5 the following:

Quote:
(5)In this Act “prize” in relation to gaming (except in the context of a gaming machine)—

(a)means money or money's worth, and

(b)includes both a prize provided by a person organising gaming and winnings of money staked.


So yes, that the object in question is freely convertible into money is important and relevant, and similar US legislation includes similar stipulations.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#38 - 2016-09-19 14:48:46 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:

Anyone who touches gambling is a self-destructive idiot or a greedy idiot or both.




Or someone else who is ok with "spending" $50 on a few hours of entertainment on shiny lights and loud noises.

Your mindset is common among people who think the point of gambling is to make money. One look at the odds should be enough to know it's simply entertainment.



Well said. My wife and I take occasional trips to a casino across the border. We never spend more than $50 each and we don't even keep score or when we've broke even of came home with some extra cash...except that one time when she won 2 grand.

I've heard people take that hard line on things before. One guy told me that anyone who smokes is an idiot who will get addicted. I smoke no more than 3 cigarettes per month and have done so for years. Same with alcohol, I bought a 6 pack of beer 3 weeks ago and the last one is still in my fridge.

Not everyone is an addict waiting to happen, some of us can do adult things in strict moderation without having to be hand-held.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#39 - 2016-09-19 15:05:07 UTC
Incidentally...I never got into the steam market... But it was my understanding that you never actually got money out of it - you just got money in your steam wallet that you could spend on more games/skins/etc.

Was there actually a way to pull money out of the steam wallet back into RL cash?

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#40 - 2016-09-19 15:13:00 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:

Anyone who touches gambling is a self-destructive idiot or a greedy idiot or both.




Or someone else who is ok with "spending" $50 on a few hours of entertainment on shiny lights and loud noises.

Your mindset is common among people who think the point of gambling is to make money. One look at the odds should be enough to know it's simply entertainment.
People with gambling problems tend to come from the poorest sectors of society, why is that?



Because 1 in 175 million means there's still a chance. Which, again, is the mindset of someone trying to make money instead of entertain themselves.