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Why do people assume how we play the game reflects us in real life?

First post
Author
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#601 - 2016-09-17 16:22:02 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
fWow, I am aware of a certain number of freighter gankers who became super rich from their activities, I am surprised at you saying that you are unaware of such people....
Why are you surprised? Why should i know every freighter ganker and their balance sheets?

Would you like to share the names and your estimates of the ganking ISK/h of these players you refer to?

But given amounts of accounts and time needed to gank freighters I would be very surprised if it was more lucrative in terms of ISK/h/account than running level 4 missions. I mean people also get super rich from mining in highsec if they spend enough hours and run enough accounts doing it.

From everything I have seen, in almost all cases a player is far better running incursions for an hour or level 4 missions than trying to pirate for an hour. Ganking to make ISK is not reliable, or even lucrative most of the time. The only possible exceptions might be the Miniluv model of sending out pings when a whale is found, but that isn't an option for most players and small groups.


Yes its was the Miniluv players I was referring too..., glad you got there Big smile

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#602 - 2016-09-17 16:23:58 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Still it is no risk and high reward which is the point I was making.


Wrong, the person getting ganked has high risk. And he created that high risk and the high reward for others by his own actions.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#603 - 2016-09-17 16:26:14 UTC
The bottom line here is that Dracvlad and Lucas are paternalisitic.

They think CCP should protect the foolish and imprudent from their foolishness and imprudence.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#604 - 2016-09-17 16:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
Teckos Pech wrote:
The bottom line here is that Dracvlad and Lucas are paternalisitic.

They think CCP should protect the foolish and imprudent from their foolishness and imprudence.
The abdication of personal responsibility.

People try to "outsource" their responsibilities to the "state", the "state" in this instance being CCP.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#605 - 2016-09-17 16:55:11 UTC
There is no reason why such veteran players should have such an easy way to make so much ISK, ganking in hisec is no risk and ultra high reward and it is completely out of balance.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#606 - 2016-09-17 17:03:12 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
There is no reason why such veteran players should have such an easy way to make so much ISK, ganking in hisec is no risk and ultra high reward and it is completely out of balance.


But there is nothing in the game that makes this inherently so. It is the actions of other players that allows for this.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#607 - 2016-09-17 17:05:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
The simplest way to make ganking less profitable is to not make stupid choices with regards to how you play Roll

Stupid choices include being afk in a PvP game.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#608 - 2016-09-17 17:09:01 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
There is no reason why such veteran players should have such an easy way to make so much ISK, ganking in hisec is no risk and ultra high reward and it is completely out of balance.


The reward and risk is entirely based upon what the "victim" fits and stuff into their cargo as well as the actions they take while in space. Ganking is only as easy and lucrative as the "victim" let's it be.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#609 - 2016-09-17 17:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Giaus Felix wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
The bottom line here is that Dracvlad and Lucas are paternalisitic.

They think CCP should protect the foolish and imprudent from their foolishness and imprudence.
The abdication of personal responsibility.

People try to "outsource" their responsibilities to the "state", the "state" in this instance being CCP.


Yes. Basically statism, and that is where the "government" (aka CCP) controls social and/or economic policy. Here those who think CCP needs to intervene think CCP should control this.

Basically there is a philosophical chasm here between the players who think ganking is not an issue CCP should address and those who think otherwise.

Those who oppose CCP intervention point out it is a problem with player behavior (being foolish and imprudent) while others point out to the effects of that behavior (ganking and the possible enrichment of those doing the ganking).

Here is the issue, the focus on the effects does nothing to address the behavior. That is, it does not seek to correct the foolish and imprudent behavior, in fact it rewards it. Thus, players who are ganking, if they do not leave the game, will look for other foolish and imprudent behavior and go take advantage of that.

This kind of thinking by Dracvlad and Lucas is funamentally antithetical to the very nature of the game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#610 - 2016-09-17 17:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Simply put CCP has poor mechanics in a number of areas which enable ganking to be low risk and very profitable. That is against the premise of Eve that high risk equals high reward.

Bumping which effectively is a no consequence pointing is a poor mechanic.

Loot scooping via a DST so only a noob ship is suspect is a poor mechanic.

Contracts to Citadels which can be blocked for docking is a poor mechanic.

All easy to exploit and no consequences and are game mechanic issues that CCP needs to adjust because they give no consequence to gankers.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#611 - 2016-09-17 17:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Dracvlad wrote:
Simply put CCP has poor mechanics in a number of areas which enable ganking to be low risk and very profitable. That is against the premise of Eve that high risk equals high reward.

Bumping which effectively is a no consequence pointing is a poor mechanic.

Loot scooping via a DST so only a noob ship is suspect is a poor mechanic.

Contracts to Citadels which can be blocked for docking is a poor mechanic.

All easy to exploit and no consequences and are game mechanic issues that CCP needs to adjust because they give no consequence to gankers.


No, the root cause here is people taking excessive risk. That is a behavioral issue, not one that can be solved by changing game mechanics.

If people were prudent and reasonable bumping would not be an issue. If people were prudent and reasonable "loot scooping to a DST" would not be an issue. If people were prudent and reasonable citadel docking rights would not be an issue.

Bottom line, is we do not need to change these things if people would stop being imprudent and unreasonable. Especially in a PvP centered sandbox game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#612 - 2016-09-17 17:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dracvlad wrote:
Simply put CCP has poor mechanics in a number of areas which enable ganking to be low risk and very profitable. That is against the premise of Eve that high risk equals high reward.
Alternatively people that keep doing stupid shite are what makes ganking profitable.

Quote:
Bumping which effectively is a no consequence pointing is a poor mechanic.
While I don't personally see it as an issue because it's never affected me, CCP are taking steps to address it.

Quote:
Loot scooping via a DST so only a noob ship is suspect is a poor mechanic.
So gank the DST, according to you doing so has no consequences.

Quote:
Contracts to Citadels which can be blocked for docking is a poor mechanic.
The same is true of any player owned station that allows docking and has been for years.

Quote:
All easy to exploit and no consequences and are game mechanic issues that CCP needs to adjust because they give no consequence to gankers.
The consequences, that you claim don't exist, are enough to discourage the majority of players from ganking.

TL;DR You claim that there are no consequences for ganking, yet you won't gank a DST that's taken a transfer of loot from a suspect frigate, because doing so has consequences....

Which is it?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#613 - 2016-09-17 18:07:40 UTC
Further using game mechanics to minimize your risk is never a bug, it is a feature. That is the type of behavior that makes the game interesting.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#614 - 2016-09-17 18:12:48 UTC
And where exactly does it say that high risk should equal high reward in game? Please point to something....anything.

By the way, freighter pilots who overload their freighters are the antithesis of this maxim.

When you overload your freighter you are increasing your risk of getting ganked. When you do not use a scout you increase your risk of getting ganked. When you do this while going through a 0.5 system, and in particular a choke point like Niarja or Uedama you are increasing your risk.

However they are most likely NOT increasing their reward. Because the reward would most likely be the same if they did not over fill their freighter, did use at least a scout, and tried to move through choke point systems when those systems are "clear".

And the maxim is more accurately stated as, "You should only take high risks when there are high rewards and you can withstand the high downside."

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#615 - 2016-09-17 18:28:12 UTC
This is really simple actually.

Player choice in game has consequences. This should be obvious (to some I guess not).

So, if you put all your wealth into your freighter an undock you are picking a fat tailed distribution with regards to ganking and loss.

If, on the other hand you do not do that and put in a fraction of your wealth and use precautions you move into a thin tail distribution with regards to ganking.

What are fat/thin tailed distributions? Link.

Notice the graphs of Levy flight on the right hand side. The top is a fat tailed distribution (the Cauchy distribution). The bottom one is Brownian motion which is thin tailed. Think of freighter ganking as the length of the lines. Notice in the Cauchy distribution there are a number of fairly long lines--i.e. freighter ganking is common.

In the second graph there are really no long lines--i.e. freighter ganking is rare.

In the fat tailed world losses are catastrophic (for the player fortunately not for the game). A loss in a fat tail is substantial, billions of ISK.

Do not make the choice of being in a fat tailed scenario. If you choose to be in a fat tailed environment you have only yourself to blame in the end. It was your choice that set things in motion to get ganked. Change that choice and you change the outcome.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#616 - 2016-09-17 18:33:33 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Simply put CCP has poor mechanics in a number of areas which enable ganking to be low risk and very profitable. That is against the premise of Eve that high risk equals high reward.

Bumping which effectively is a no consequence pointing is a poor mechanic.

Loot scooping via a DST so only a noob ship is suspect is a poor mechanic.

Contracts to Citadels which can be blocked for docking is a poor mechanic.

All easy to exploit and no consequences and are game mechanic issues that CCP needs to adjust because they give no consequence to gankers.


1. Ganking is no longer low-risk. The risks are there. Here is a link to Eve University's "Suicide Ganking 101" guide:

Source: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Suicide_Ganking_101#CONCORD_and_empire_consequences You will also notice a section in there telling you how to protect yourself from such gankers.

2. Bumping will always be a legitimate tactic. CCP confirmed that a long time ago. Although I think CCP has made a change not too long ago that enables ships to go into warp automatically if their ship is getting bumped out of warp alignment for too long. There was a Reddit discussion about it 4 months ago.

Sources:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=176498
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4fyb48/bumping_dead_rip/

So now even Bumping carries some risk because now the gankers have to put more effort into it and will likely need someone to form a ganking fleet before the hauler/miner being targeted gets away in 3 minutes. That requires an investment of ships they will definitely lose with no insurance paid and that is assuming the ship being targeted hasn't been tanked by the pilot. That player will have to be hauling something extremely valuable to be worth the gank and even then there is no guarantee that the loot will drop and not get destroyed in the process.

3. You might want to get in on the discussion on how to address this problem with DST loot scooping.

Source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6622658

4. You do realize that Citadels are player-controlled, right? It is always standard practice that any contract be checked by the player for where it's located and where it's headed (if it's a courier type) before the contract is accepted. That's no different from saying only a fool would sign a contract before reading it.

5. Sorry, but all are not easy and they do have consequences with the exception of DST loot scooping. The citadel-contract part may be easy to setup but very difficult to make it convincing for very long before more and more players get wise to the tactic and start ignoring those contracts. Remember the old-fashioned Jita scams? Only very few players fall for those while the rest and turned the scams into a joke.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#617 - 2016-09-17 19:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Rin Vocaloid2,

I will be nice, first thing is that I have not been ganked, mainly because I play to be hard to kill, which is why I sold my freighters, decided that they were just too vulnerable. I have saved a lot of freighters and jump freighters from gankers I have also seen a lot die, I know how they go about it. Linking to stuff is easy, but doing is another matter, I have a question does your alliance escort your freighters, yes or no?

Game mechanics are key to this and all the mechanics I detail are poorly thought out and implemented that directly benefit gankers

This comment Ganking is no longer low risk is just wrong, ganking is low risk and high reward, the consequences are meaningless to throw away alts that are specifically there for ganking.

Have they actually implemented that bumping fix? And in any case that is so easy to counter, you know that the timer gets re-set with a point. linking to conversations about it does not indicate understanding. So what is the increased risk or consequence to the bumper, can't see it, do you really think a noob ship with a point is a consequence? That reddit thread title makes me laugh, anyone worth their salt knows that this will have little impact on freighter ganking.

I have read the thread about loot scooping, but so far nothing has come about it, its not like the speed CCP moved on freighter wreck EHP is it? Same comment applies to bumping...

Citadels and the applying of the contract system was an example of poor mechanics that benefited gankers. I keep pointing out that CCP lost casual players, do casual players take the time to read every patch? Anyway being dumb as some players are is matched by CCP being dumb with key mechanics.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Caco De'mon
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#618 - 2016-09-17 19:11:34 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Simply put CCP has poor mechanics in a number of areas which enable ganking to be low risk and very profitable. That is against the premise of Eve that high risk equals high reward.


Or said another way...

Simply put CCP has poor mechanics in a number of areas which enable AFK MINING to be low risk and very profitable. That is against the premise of Eve that high risk equals high reward.

*"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#619 - 2016-09-17 19:15:54 UTC
Caco De'mon wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Simply put CCP has poor mechanics in a number of areas which enable ganking to be low risk and very profitable. That is against the premise of Eve that high risk equals high reward.


Or said another way...

Simply put CCP has poor mechanics in a number of areas which enable AFK MINING to be low risk and very profitable. That is against the premise of Eve that high risk equals high reward.


That is low reward and you can only really be semi AFK while mining..., because the roids run out very quickly... But when does reality get in the way of a good spin...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Caco De'mon
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#620 - 2016-09-17 19:17:57 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Caco De'mon wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Simply put CCP has poor mechanics in a number of areas which enable ganking to be low risk and very profitable. That is against the premise of Eve that high risk equals high reward.


Or said another way...

Simply put CCP has poor mechanics in a number of areas which enable AFK MINING to be low risk and very profitable. That is against the premise of Eve that high risk equals high reward.


That is low reward and you can only really be semi AFK while mining..., because the roids run out very quickly... But when does reality get in the way of a good spin...


Funny how you ignore scripts/bot mining....but the attempt at being cute was nice as it just makes you look like a jackass.

*"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."