EVE General Discussion

A news story has just been released in the UK.

Whether it affects EVE, I have no idea. But it's very interesting anyway.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37385555

Not really, since you can effectively buy in-game currency for real money, thus giving it value. Just like you can't sell tokens then allow people to gamble with those tokens instead of money to get around gambling laws, this is simply an extension of that. Right now it's pretty hazy because the law is slow to catch up with moving technology trends, but they'll catch up eventually. CCP may even find themselves somewhat liable given that they actively support people gambling ISK on third party gambling sites.

I don't believe CCP provides any *official* support to any gambling sites anymore.

I'm not saying there is no support - just that it isn't official and thus could be denied in court.

Note that this is around skin/weapon gambing and often people bet using skins and weapons they own as a currency rather than paying in straight cash. What the law is there to stop is people getting in financial distress by getting deeper into better, so all the time there's any method of turning real money into a currency with which to gamble, there's a potential legal concern there. Whether or not you're directly paying currency in to gamble with, or able to turn your winnings into cash is irrelevant.

Edit: Also on a technical and legal level your comment was incorrect.

I think even if they ignore CCP actively working with those sites for promotions, the courts would see that it's pushed on their own chat channels and forums and not prevented as a pretty compelling sign of support. More so that IWI was blocked on the IGB and CCP chose to unblock it. Most sites also use CCPs API to operate which would be hard to dismiss. The only thing CCP has going for them is that EVE is a lot smaller than other games being scrutinised so it might take a while.

Isn't part of the issue with CS:GO gambling sites, that it was basically gambling targeted towards kids?

Anyway, don't think it's going to be a big deal in EvE.

But we can all agree on one thing though. That governments policies are extremely slow to adapt to technological trends.

Gambling is a touchy subject for some people - even/especially at a government level.

There are many countries that certainly don't care - but you only need to find 1 reasonably respected country that is extremely uptight about gambling to get a conviction... And there have been states within the USA for example that have attempted moves to ban online gambling *games* that just give you free imaginary money to throw away - because they object to the gambling itself regardless of whether anything is actually being gambled or not... So I wouldn't be 100% sure that someone won't eventually sue the EVE gambling sites at the very least.

Now whether they can drag CCP into it is a separate issue - since as I said I think they are being careful to avoid official, legally incriminating support/connections.

Failing to go out of their way to perform law enforcement's job and ban people for it is a pretty weak charge for a massive lawsuit though...

Random Legal Quibble (but lets face it this thread was never going anywhere anyway):

Those who are OK with Virtual Betting are in fact harming their own case any time they refer to such sites/organizations as "gambling" sites or "gambling" organizations.

Ultimately most legal codes are clear - and *if* one accepts that such a site has any form of actual, legally recognized "gambling" of any form it is 100% clear-cut illegal.

So the argument is simply: Is it actually gambling - or do people just *mistakenly* call it "gambling" when in fact nothing of value is involved so no gambling occurs.

So if this is your position - I would advise you to choose your words with care and not refer to it as "gambling" - because in doing so you at least give the impression of conceding the most important point of legal contention.

As far as the legal beagles are concerned, management has actively promoted gambling sites "giving away" ships and other items for its own profit and benefit. To parse it out for the aspies, no, they don't get anything from the sites, but law identifies endorsement of illegal activities which brings legitimate business your way as being in collusion. Ipso facto, etc.

The "argument" (and a very flimsy one at that) so-called "intelligent gamers" make is that none of this is real. Law doesn't use the "intelligent gamer's" definition of "real" (fortunately for civilization and all that's attached), it uses its own and this is where a lot of "intelligent gamers" might find themselves derping to themselves, (but, of course not to us.)

So far law has come to identify everything else similar to digital "items" as having a monetary value. Hell, the same people who claim stuff in EVE isn't worth real money, when talking about all the fabulous losses in the fabulous battles that have occurred simply have to state the value in equivalence of dollars or pounds. In fact management itself has stated in official releases exactly the same thing, so if in a court of law trying to argue against the idea, their own words need only be trotted before a judge.

This of course gets to the heart of the very nature of certain endorsed behavior in this game in particular. This, of course, makes it a topic here - not just the existence of gambling sites. Is it really legal to set up a game which encourages certain players to rob certain other players all the while claiming it's just for fun and none of this is real? (There are other threads covering this so don't bog this one down with that subject.)

However, what people don't seem to comprehend is proscription of gambling doesn't have so much to do with the money involved, i.e., will daddy bet the ranch and leave his family homeless? The proscription is accepted as a method to curb promulgating destructive behavior in a psychological area. Gambling addiction, for instance, is a behavioral disorder. (All behavioral disorders can to some degree penalize the sufferer economically.) And, therefore, to avoid afflicting children with this behavior by not having it around, and not having it seen or spoken about via adults, it is proscribed.

The only "story" here is legislatures have been rather slow at jumping onto video games and the behavior they countenance, endorse and support. There could be some discussion as to why this delay, however, there can be no discussion that video games have nothing about them that holds them immune from legislation across the board, and not especially the desperately, but rather wan view, "But...but...this isn't real!"

If this isn't real. You aren't real. None of this is happening, so there's nothing to discuss. Ipso facto, etc.

I've removed more off topic posts. Seriously guys, keep it civil.

Slightly off topic post but still relevant.

Most of the concern is that children and teens are being encouraged to gamble, yet the powers that be in the UK do nothing about the constant stream of gambling adverts that invade every home through the TV after 9PM, when many teens, and indeed some children, are still watching.

Personally I think gambling ads on TV should go the same way as smoking ads, be banned altogether.

Edit, it turns out there is a loophole in the regulations, in the UK it is permitted to advertise gambling at any time of day during a sports event.