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Dev blog: Command Bursts and the New World of Fleet Boosting

First post First post
Author
DiDDleR
Unity of Suns
Warped Intentions
#1101 - 2016-09-09 18:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: DiDDleR
Fozzie seems like you have some hate for miners and industrialists huh?

I'm part of CASMA we are a group of players dedicated to introducing new and existing EVE players into the world of mining and provide Orca mining boosts to members of the fleet.

The changes to on-grid boosting will severely restrict what we can do if the boosting Orca has to be within a set vicinity of the fleet members. Mining belts aren't enormous (perhaps this area could do with a tweak / revision) so an entire fleet with a close Orca will need to constantly relocate once the belt is exhausted.

The Mining Foreman Link for "reduced crystal deteroiation" or whatever it is called is a complete waste of time, I mean who thought of that? Absolute joke of an idea considering how cheap mining crystals are?

Instead of the currently planned tweaks why not this -

Mechanic to "lock" mining vessel to asteroid to prevent miner bumping, currently there is no counter-attack to a determined bumper and myself have had to resort to logging out and doing something else after being followed from belt to belt by a determined bumper. Miner bumping serves no purpose and this is an area CCP should be addressing, its not like we are sitting tethered to a Citadel in a dreadnought in low / null sec where someone is attempting to engage.

Provide a mechanic where miners can get even with CODE and miner bumping and even the field.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#1102 - 2016-09-09 22:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Rowells wrote:
Sentenced 1989 wrote:
Diana Lillywhite wrote:
My calc

Rorqual Max Range Bonus:
Ship Bonus: 50% + Mining Director 50% + Leadership 50% + Wing Command 25% + Fleet Command 20% + T2 Indust Core 200% = 395%

Max Range: 15km + 15km * 395% = 5940km



you mean 15km + 50% of 15km (7.5km) + 50% of 15km (7.5km) + 50% of 15km (7.5km) + 25% of 15km (3.75km) + 200% of 15km (30km) = 71,25 km

also, a note: ore you mine yourself is not free.

Or is it 15km x (1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.25 x 2.00) = 126.56km?

Bonuses are always multiplied:

15 km base * (1 + 200% T2 Industrial Core) * (1 + 50% Rorqual role) * (1 + 5 * 4% FC) * (1 + 5 * 5% WC) * (1 + 5 * 6% Leadership) * (1 + 5 * 10% Mining Director) = 197.4375 km

Still shorter range than a Capital Tractor Beam II (240 km).


[FYI, same sort of math applies to reductions, or negative bonuses.]
MrB99
Astral Mining
Astral Industries
#1103 - 2016-09-10 07:29:30 UTC
DiDDleR wrote:
Fozzie seems like you have some hate for miners and industrialists huh?

I'm part of CASMA we are a group of players dedicated to introducing new and existing EVE players into the world of mining and provide Orca mining boosts to members of the fleet.

The changes to on-grid boosting will severely restrict what we can do if the boosting Orca has to be within a set vicinity of the fleet members. Mining belts aren't enormous (perhaps this area could do with a tweak / revision) so an entire fleet with a close Orca will need to constantly relocate once the belt is exhausted.

The Mining Foreman Link for "reduced crystal deteroiation" or whatever it is called is a complete waste of time, I mean who thought of that? Absolute joke of an idea considering how cheap mining crystals are?

Instead of the currently planned tweaks why not this -

Mechanic to "lock" mining vessel to asteroid to prevent miner bumping, currently there is no counter-attack to a determined bumper and myself have had to resort to logging out and doing something else after being followed from belt to belt by a determined bumper. Miner bumping serves no purpose and this is an area CCP should be addressing, its not like we are sitting tethered to a Citadel in a dreadnought in low / null sec where someone is attempting to engage.

Provide a mechanic where miners can get even with CODE and miner bumping and even the field.


We also ran a free fleet with free boost for new players which gave new miners a community and chance to interact with and learn from more experienced players. The systemwide boost enabled that - and allowed us to concurrently boost experienced players mining ice, and new players mining ore in ventures. The limited area of effect of the proposed new boosting regime for the most part eliminates that gameplay. It takes a significant investment of time and skillpoints to be a good booster and there aren't that many people out there who have made that investment and agree to give it's benefit to new players for free to field multiple boosters per fleet.

+1 on needing some counter to bumping. The bumper is at no risk, yet can paralyze the gameplay of another player. The only counter now is to have your full mining fleet swap into cats, suicide the bumper, and then deal with the fact all your miners now have to fly under killrights.

If CCP wants groups like CODE to be able to "own" high sec space and charge rent to other players (mining permits) then provide some equivalent for high sec to Null SOV where the system "owner" has to invest and pay a significant cost to dominate one or more systems. Stationing a group of alts with an inventory of disposable cats nearby is not an appropriate cost for the benefit of inconveniencing many other players.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1104 - 2016-09-10 07:32:32 UTC
for boosting the fact that you now need more than one orca per system has actually gotten a lot of my newer members excited as they now have a reason to use their orcas for boosting

for bumping counter

didn't they add a timer on how long you can be "warping" before warp initiates even if you are being bumped
MrB99
Astral Mining
Astral Industries
#1105 - 2016-09-10 07:36:49 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
for boosting the fact that you now need more than one orca per system has actually gotten a lot of my newer members excited as they now have a reason to use their orcas for boosting

for bumping counter

didn't they add a timer on how long you can be "warping" before warp initiates even if you are being bumped


CCP added a solution to prevent freighter pilots from being endlessly bumped and never able to go to warp because they could never align before the next bump happened. That change doesn't prevent a bumper in a mach or stabber from essentially preventing a player from mining by bumping his mining ship 100-200km off the rock that was being targeted each bump.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1106 - 2016-09-10 07:39:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
yeah but you can always just go to the next system... if they continue to follow you and you have asked them not to you can submit it for harassment. bumping other miners in your system is a legit way to disrupt competition

(remember for it to be harassment they need to be following you system to system not belt to belt)
MrB99
Astral Mining
Astral Industries
#1107 - 2016-09-10 08:09:16 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
yeah but you can always just go to the next system... if they continue to follow you and you have asked them not to you can submit it for harassment. bumping other miners in your system is a legit way to disrupt competition

(remember for it to be harassment they need to be following you system to system not belt to belt)


If you're in a system to take advantage of a public fleet boost, or hang out and mine with your friends, you can't just go to the next system. Same if you're there for an ice, gas or other anom that is spawned now and not available in the next system.

We've had no examples of it being a competition disrupting activity. It's exclusively been for the pleasure of the bumper disrupting other players gameplay. Players have to stop mining and do other activities, or just dock up and talk. People with limited time to play Eve (because they have kids or whatever) have their opportunity for their preferred gameplay denied by the bumper. What we've seen in our community when this happens is the targeted players get frustrated (because they have no counter) and go play other games.

Leaving to play other games because gameplay is unrewarding yields no benefit to CCP or the Eve community.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1108 - 2016-09-10 08:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
we do it all the time to people in ice belts and ore spawns. (again disrupting competition) and you can just move your fleet to the next system if its for boosts.


EDIT:

we also get bumped for the same reason and have learned that you are practically unbumpable in the expedition frigs and you only give up 1.9m3/s over a proc



you guys that doc up because of decs/gankers/bumpers rather than thinking just a little and using tools you have been given are only ruining the game for your self. then you run to ccp to give you more tools and never use them (like the higs anchor)
Jason Ozran
0mega.
#1109 - 2016-09-10 10:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Ozran
I had this idea while talking with other solo PVP players in the game. I know it will probably not be noticed by anybody, especially after 56 pages of messages, but it doesn't hurt to try I guess... CCP Fozzie ?

So, let's have a look at WHO is gonna be impacted by the change you guys are doing do fleet boosting:

  • small gangs: a bit, they will get the bonus for 2 minutes and go for the fight, until 2 minutes later when the boost ship warp in the middle, apply the bonus and warp out again (I can foresee warp core stabilizers in a lot of fits already). Worse case, if the boosting ship get caught, they can defend it for a while
  • big fleets (50+): at this point you most likely have a couple of logi ships, so having a cruiser for boost in the fleet is normal (it already is, for most fleets in low and null sec)
  • solo PVP : well... you gonna get 2 minutes of bonuses and then you will be by yourself to fight whoever join the party to get your ass. Cause nobody will be willing to commit a boosting ship to a fight for a frigate or a destroyer, especially in FW where it gets harder everyday to not get blobbed by half of the local (I've been there, way too many times)


In a nutshell: fleets will not get impacted and just have boost ships included in their fleet composition (it was already the case most of the time), small gang will still have bonuses apply to them at all time with the trick I mentioned, and solo PVPers will be left without any bonuses

Which bring the following idea:

why not applying different kind of bonuses whether you are alone in the fleet (= 1 player, not 2 or 3) or with multiple people?


People will still be able to see if you get bonuses or not, with the glow around your ship, but at least you won't need them on grid AND that would indicate that there is a uncloaked boosting ship in system ready to be probed!

That would be a great adaptation of your proposition, would push people to at least try some solo PVP once in a while and give them a chance to get out when they are about to get blobbed.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1110 - 2016-09-10 10:55:14 UTC
should i also be able to RR and E-war from off grid with my alts if i'm solo? didn't think so there will always be an advantage to having more than one person with you. if you want solo boosts fly a boosting ship
Jason Ozran
0mega.
#1111 - 2016-09-10 10:58:18 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
should i also be able to RR and E-war from off grid with my alts if i'm solo? didn't think so there will always be an advantage to having more than one person with you. if you want solo boosts fly a boosting ship


Don't start trolling. I'm not asking to add more stuff from off-grid, I'm just trying to find a way to adapt the current change of boosts so that it fits everyone, and not just people that fly in fleets. If you have nothing interesting to add on this, please don't post :)
MrB99
Astral Mining
Astral Industries
#1112 - 2016-09-10 11:17:35 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
we do it all the time to people in ice belts and ore spawns. (again disrupting competition) and you can just move your fleet to the next system if its for boosts.


EDIT:

we also get bumped for the same reason and have learned that you are practically unbumpable in the expedition frigs and you only give up 1.9m3/s over a proc



you guys that doc up because of decs/gankers/bumpers rather than thinking just a little and using tools you have been given are only ruining the game for your self. then you run to ccp to give you more tools and never use them (like the higs anchor)


Your gameplay in low/null is different than ours in high sec both in terms of the game mechanics that affect us and the behavior of other players we share space with. It is arrogant and presumptive to suggest we do not think, or engage to understand the game in depth and explore and experiment with all the tools CCP provides. The low and nullsec players who fly their alts with us have the same issues and run into the same limitations as players who spend the majority of their time in high sec.

If the tools we had been given solved the problems in our gameplay we would have no need for this pleasant conversation. We've talked with the game designers at CCP and as of our last conversation they acknowledge the game is currently not balanced and needs attention in the area of high sec ganking/minerbumping vs the selection of mining ships and their possible fits.

CCP is making a lot of changes that will impact our gameplay in this next release and we hope they will listen and that some of the changes will make us enjoy the game more rather than less. The only way for them to understand how their customers use such a complex and flexible piece of software is for us to dialog with them.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1113 - 2016-09-10 11:23:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
... wait when did my corp move to low/null i had always thought most of them were mining in HS. i am also in a null corp where we do have null miners but the players i oversee are HS

how exactly have the tools not solved your gameplay? are you still getting bumped when using a prospect? are you still losing freighters when moving them with webs/links/RR are you still losing tanked procs/skiffs to small numbers of gankers? are your falcons and griffans not managing to lower incoming DPS? is RRing your orca still not enough to keep it alive until concord shows?


EDIT:

the only unbalanced thing i can think of in HS is War decs and i'm not just talking from the side of the defender there is also a lot of crap attackers have to put up with. <- that is the part of HS i really wish CCP would look at fixing
Hafwolf
Krieg 7th Brigade
#1114 - 2016-09-10 14:27:19 UTC
Hey how about an anti boost links. Since fleet boosts affect everyone in an area how about ones to take away from shields, armor, or speed. I can see a command cruiser flying into the middle of a enemy fleet popping one of those off right before the main fleet warps in. This would add some interesting game play.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1115 - 2016-09-10 14:30:17 UTC
fleet boosts only affect your fleet not everyone in the area as for debuffs that is the kinda thing the new titan mods do
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1116 - 2016-09-10 18:02:39 UTC
Jason Ozran wrote:


I'm just trying to find a way to adapt the current change of boosts so that it fits everyone, and not just people that fly in fleets.


funny that i thought they were fleet boosts


the problem is every one was using them do to the ease and low risk forcing every one else to use them to stay competitive. after this change they will be just another ship. it being harder to field means not everyone will have one meaning not everyone needs to bring one
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1117 - 2016-09-10 18:17:22 UTC
MrB99 wrote:

We also ran a free fleet with free boost for new players which gave new miners a community and chance to interact with and learn from more experienced players. The systemwide boost enabled that - and allowed us to concurrently boost experienced players mining ice, and new players mining ore in ventures. The limited area of effect of the proposed new boosting regime for the most part eliminates that gameplay.

How it works now:

You have a booster in a safe place, providing bonuses to the entire system. You have a number of miners in your fleet. They spread out over the belts in the system. They lock the nearest rock, start their cycle and resume watching netflix until the asteroid is depleted.

How it will work after the changes:

Your fleet will be going to the designated belt. You will spread over it actually watching which rocks are being mined. Perhaps even use a rock scanner to short cycle your strips when there's a quarter of a cycle left in the rock. Your players will actually be in the same place, interacting.

I fail to see how this hinders gamePLAY.

You have issues with CODE. When there's wolves about, you round up the sheep. This can only work in your favor. I'm sure when you are dealing with these issues as a group, you will come up with something better than log off.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1118 - 2016-09-10 18:31:51 UTC
Jason Ozran wrote:
solo PVPers will be left without any bonuses

I too solo with Titan links and 5 caps on the other end of my cyno. Err wait, that doesn't sound right, does it?

He wasn't trolling. If you want links for solo pvp, go solo in a Command Destroyer, Battlecruiser or Command Ship.
Lord Mudeki
Kaishin.
#1119 - 2016-09-10 19:08:28 UTC
What I'd like to know is when the hell are these changes gonna go live on Singularity? Seems kinda stupid not to put them on the test server asap instead of waiting til literally right before it supposed to go live on Tranquility, so as to get feedback from players but also to make sure its working properly and to find the bugs, I mean here it is middle of September still nothing on Sing, new barge updates in just a couple days so really were kinda done with that so lets see the new stuff already on Sing
DiDDleR
Unity of Suns
Warped Intentions
#1120 - 2016-09-10 21:09:31 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:

How it works now:

You have a booster in a safe place, providing bonuses to the entire system. You have a number of miners in your fleet. They spread out over the belts in the system. They lock the nearest rock, start their cycle and resume watching netflix until the asteroid is depleted.

How it will work after the changes:

Your fleet will be going to the designated belt. You will spread over it actually watching which rocks are being mined. Perhaps even use a rock scanner to short cycle your strips when there's a quarter of a cycle left in the rock. Your players will actually be in the same place, interacting.

I fail to see how this hinders gamePLAY.

You have issues with CODE. When there's wolves about, you round up the sheep. This can only work in your favor. I'm sure when you are dealing with these issues as a group, you will come up with something better than log off.


LOL - yes of course we all just AFK mine and watch netflix... really?

When I mine I'm after the highest yield and shortest cycles I can manage whilst also mining only the ores I am interested in. This means quite a bit of management on my part whilst also scanning the system regularly for gankers or bumpers.

I time my cycles so that I don't waste any and also check that I'm not mining someone elses asteroid (doesn't apply to ice fields due to the huge competition).

And yes everyone I know within the CASMA group uses a survey scanner and does the same as I as regards short cycling etc.

Yes when CODE are about in gank catalysts we swap ships for Skiffs or Procurers and only see Retrievers, Covetors and the occasional Mackinaw getting ganked.

The bumpers are rare but when it happens it is very annoying due to the crime-watch mechanics not providing a mechanism for retaliation. As others have pointed out the only way to get even is to become a criminal yourself and gank the bumper but then that means you lose security rating and provide the bumper with a kill right.

I liked the earlier suggestion to use a Prospect or Endurance frigate and I will definitely try that next time.

Also will look into the Higgs Anchor in more detail as this looks like it could prove useful! Thanks.