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Matari: Where are we now and where are we headed?
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Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2016-09-08 07:42:28 UTC
This clone has been around for a year now.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2016-09-08 16:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Galente
Mitara Newelle wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Mitara Newelle wrote:
The expectation was that we would move forward in good will... Seems "enjoying the longest period of peace and unity the cluster had ever seen" wasn't what was wanted.

Maybe turning over the Tyrant Shakor to Amarr and leaving the Tribes to their own can return us to such a place?


First, that period of peace was prior to the Amarr invasions. Centuries without war - has the Empire ever even sought such a thing, in all their violent expansion? Invading and enslaving is not what we consider 'moving forward in good will', and the point is that the wounds of that action are still at the root of the current conflict. The people who invaded and enslaved weren't the ones harmed by it. They don't get to be the ones saying 'well, that doesn't count anymore'. Otherwise, hey, that whole Elder Fleet thing? The Amarr don't get to be upset by that anymore. We've decided it doesn't count.

Doesn't really work, does it? The injured party has to be the one to determine when those grievances are settled.


It was settled - at the Yoiul Conference. The Minmatar broke that peace and their word.

Let all who read these proceedings make note -
[list]
  • Most of the Matari that war against the Empire wish us to turn over a third of our people to them. A third! And make no misguided assumptions, they are our people.


    • They're only your people if they claim themselves as your people willingly, and that claim is upheld by Amarr. I imagine, due to the nature of this demographic socio-economic relationship, that Amarr never bothered to ask these people what they actually wanted.

    Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

    At any cost
    Arrendis
    TK Corp
    #123 - 2016-09-08 16:41:20 UTC
    Jason Galente wrote:
    They're only your people if they claim themselves as your people willingly, and that claim is upheld by Amarr. I imagine, due to the nature of this demographic socio-economic relationship, that Amarr never bothered to ask these people what they actually wanted.


    Don't bother. She's had a week to even respond to that simple concept, and hasn't. As much as I do respect Lady Newelle, I have a feeling the idea of respecting a slave population's natural rights to self-determination and agency is a thing even some of the most liberal Amarr can only blink at, uncomprehendingly.
    Pieter Tuulinen
    Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
    Khimi Harar
    #124 - 2016-09-08 17:13:28 UTC
    When you get right down to it, few on either side talk much about giving the Matari slaves the opportunity to decide for themselves where their loyalty lies.

    For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
    Arrendis
    TK Corp
    #125 - 2016-09-08 17:15:06 UTC
    Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
    When you get right down to it, few on either side talk much about giving the Matari slaves the opportunity to decide for themselves where their loyalty lies.


    It's kind of an inescapable implied part of 'freedom', Pieter. We can't very well say they're free if we say they can't decide for themselves whether or not to return to the Empire.
    Arnulf Ogunkoya
    Clan Ogunkoya
    Electus Matari
    #126 - 2016-09-08 22:13:13 UTC
    Arkoth 24 wrote:
    Felise Selunix wrote:
    When I say 'normalization,' I don't mean 'like' or 'make friends' or even 'tolerate.' Normalization might mean a better version of the 'no diplomatic contact' policy that we have now. It could also mean outright war (though I don't think that tactic would be in our interest either). What I'm suggesting by normalization is an intentional, concerted policy who's number one objective is strengthening the Republic as an international power. I'm also suggesting that the current lassiez-faire approach of antagonism towards the Empire doesn't accomplish those goals. If it did, I would have no problems with it at all. I just don't see how this help us more than the hurt us as a nation.

    Good idea. But, like all of good ideas, it will face a lot of people who will do their best to make it not happen.

    First of all - there are a lot of fanatics, hot-heads and those, who make money and fame from war. Every goverment needs an Enemy - to fight against, to blame for all loses, to point out for angry and suffering people, to hold own positions. If there will be no such enemy - people will turn on goverment itself. A lot of matari wants to keep fighting. A lot of amarr don't even consider matari like anything but animals. A lot of people from both sides make profit on this war.

    Second - this warfare is pointless. CONCORD just gave a sandbox for main factions - a killing ground to let 'em weaken each other. To keep 'em busy. This war is endless, 'cause no one will ever prevail. The Empire is not allowed to crush the Republic. The Republic is not allowed to crush the Empire. There's a power which don't want to see neither Republic nor Empire get strong.

    And at last - capsuleers. These brain-washed puppets, who's life will last for month or two, if they will be lucky. They were told they're immortal. Gods of this new reality. Allmighty preborn killers. These fools will fight each other no-matter-what. Some of them just like to kill or can't do anything else. Others - feed from the table of war. War consumes minerals, weapons, hulls, fuel and ammo, and gives ISKs in return. Capsuleers need to be busy. If not - these monsters with no fear of death and no reason to live will go frenzy.

    I like your idea and respect your motives, but there will be others who don't.


    The Amarr aren't needed as a unifying threat. The drones and/or the Sansha would do perfectly well in their place. The militia wars are mainly down to inertia & power groups that have an interest in profiting from them.

    I completely agree with you about most capsuleers though.

    Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.
    Pieter Tuulinen
    Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
    Khimi Harar
    #127 - 2016-09-08 22:27:48 UTC
    Arrendis wrote:
    Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
    When you get right down to it, few on either side talk much about giving the Matari slaves the opportunity to decide for themselves where their loyalty lies.


    It's kind of an inescapable implied part of 'freedom', Pieter. We can't very well say they're free if we say they can't decide for themselves whether or not to return to the Empire.


    Hey, I agree with you. But it means there's a LARGE number of so-called Matari who will want nothing to do with being freed. Many will want to stay in the Empire and some are even convinced that the state of their soul requires slavery to purify it.

    How does the war end then?

    For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
    Elmund Egivand
    Tribal Liberation Force
    Minmatar Republic
    #128 - 2016-09-09 02:00:36 UTC
    Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
    Arrendis wrote:
    Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
    When you get right down to it, few on either side talk much about giving the Matari slaves the opportunity to decide for themselves where their loyalty lies.


    It's kind of an inescapable implied part of 'freedom', Pieter. We can't very well say they're free if we say they can't decide for themselves whether or not to return to the Empire.


    Hey, I agree with you. But it means there's a LARGE number of so-called Matari who will want nothing to do with being freed. Many will want to stay in the Empire and some are even convinced that the state of their soul requires slavery to purify it.

    How does the war end then?


    No clue. Perhaps until every Matari is given the freedom of choice. Personally, if they wish to collar themselves again it's their prerogative. Part of freedom is freedom to choose one's own master or one's own chains after all.

    A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
    Pieter Tuulinen
    Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
    Khimi Harar
    #129 - 2016-09-09 02:16:36 UTC
    Well, there we are. One suggestion appears to be offering all generationally enslaved Matari the choice of remaining slaves or emigrating to the Republic.

    I know the concept of slavery as punishment is going to rankle a bit, but really it's not all that conceptually different than a life sentence in prison.

    For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
    Arrendis
    TK Corp
    #130 - 2016-09-09 02:40:50 UTC
    I'd agree there. If they choose to submit to the Empire, that's their choice - but only for them. Not for the children who haven't made that choice.
    Felise Selunix
    Keyholder Investment Group
    #131 - 2016-09-09 03:18:00 UTC
    Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
    I know the concept of slavery as punishment is going to rankle a bit, but really it's not all that conceptually different than a life sentence in prison.


    I like the idea behind this in theory as I believe that everyone should be able to choose their own destiny in as much as that is possible. My only reservation is that one cannot choose to continue to be a slave by definition since the defining definition of slavery is the absence of self-determination. The only place from which someone could decide to become a slave is from a place of non-slavery. And I think it has to be more than just 'free in word' as I see freedom as an economic and political set of circumstances.

    You know, as much as i don't really care for the Mandate, I was thinking that it really seems to be the key to some sort of possible end to this thing, with a couple of tweaks.

    I like the idea of an independent state for free Matari with Amarr beliefs. The rub is that it has to be completely independent and I think all Matari of that type would have to locate there from the Empire.

    As has been pointed out already, it's impossible for anyone to discern what Matari slaves want because they' lack self-determination by definition. As for free Matari in the Empire, they too lack full citizenship and I believe that if you don't have a place that you can point to consider yourself a fully-fledged citizen of that place, then it's really impossible to make a legitimate choice to be a half-citizen or somesuch of somewhere else.

    A fully independent Ammatar state where all Matari of Amarr faith can enjoy full and free citizenship solves those problems in my opinion. It allows those Matari to fully decide what they want their relationship with the Empire will be. Maybe the state decided to have a close cooperative relationship with the Empire, great. If they want to follow the lead of the Empire in international diplomacy, cool. If individual Matari want to emigrate to the Empire and enjoy limited citizenship (I can't see why they'd want to) then they can do so from a place of true freedom and then could exit if they didn't like it.

    Most importantly, this arrangement would allow these Matari to control the price of their own labor and their own relationship with the religion that is clearly an important part of who they are. I think those are the circumstances where I could see those Matari truly being able to make the choice that Pieter was alluding to, which I think is the key to real peace between us and the Empire.
    Arrendis
    TK Corp
    #132 - 2016-09-09 04:25:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
    Felise Selunix wrote:
    I like the idea of an independent state for free Matari with Amarr beliefs. The rub is that it has to be completely independent and I think all Matari of that type would have to locate there from the Empire.


    And yet, for us to require the freed slaves to do that would be to deny them their freedom. We'd just be locking them into a different slave pen. Instead, we'd need to require that their options be 'stay in the Empire as citizen if they wish' or 'go someplace else'. A free person can, after all, choose to be a slave. They simply can't take it back.

    Quote:
    A fully independent Ammatar state where all Matari of Amarr faith can enjoy full and free citizenship solves those problems in my opinion. It allows those Matari to fully decide what they want their relationship with the Empire will be. Maybe the state decided to have a close cooperative relationship with the Empire, great. If they want to follow the lead of the Empire in international diplomacy, cool. If individual Matari want to emigrate to the Empire and enjoy limited citizenship (I can't see why they'd want to) then they can do so from a place of true freedom and then could exit if they didn't like it.


    Well, the Ammatar Mandate was independent(ish) for a while. It went terribly. When the Empress put Yonis Ardishapur in charge of the Mandate, he immediately invested trillions of ISK in rebuilding the entire Mandate more or less from the ground up. Partly as a result, the Mandate's become a place where the populace has gravitated to the outlook of their benefactors - and House Ardishapur is very conservative on matters of the faith.

    So to insist upon an independent Mandate would be to declare that the Mandate has endure a separation they probably don't want. Their faith says they are the servants of the Empress. That they owe fealty to the Empress and the House the Empress has entrusted with the fiefdom. And that means remaining a part of the Empire. Not 'cooperating', not 'following the Empire's lead', but a unified part of the Empire.

    And if that's what the Ammatar want, we don't have any right to demand otherwise. The Ammatar have already chosen not to rejoin the Tribes - those who did have already returned as the Nefantar.

    So the choice can't be 'leave the Empire if you want to stay with the Empire'. I mean, completely aside from 'that makes no sense', there's noplace to leave the Empire to while remaining within the Empire, culturally. Even the Khanid Kingdom once again recognizes the primacy of the Imperial Throne. The Empire is the Empire - you're in, or you're out. They'd need to be guaranteed Amarr citizenship if they choose to stay as free people, which, as I understand it, is predicated on accepting the Faith in the first place.
    Samira Kernher
    Cail Avetatu
    #133 - 2016-09-09 09:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
    Felise Selunix wrote:
    I like the idea of an independent state for free Matari with Amarr beliefs. The rub is that it has to be completely independent and I think all Matari of that type would have to locate there from the Empire.

    As has been pointed out already, it's impossible for anyone to discern what Matari slaves want because they' lack self-determination by definition. As for free Matari in the Empire, they too lack full citizenship and I believe that if you don't have a place that you can point to consider yourself a fully-fledged citizen of that place, then it's really impossible to make a legitimate choice to be a half-citizen or somesuch of somewhere else.


    1) Free Minmatar in the Empire have full citizenship. As does anyone who immigrates here and takes the faith. We have entries in the Book of Records and all the rights, privileges, and duties of any other commoner. There are several minmatar members of the nobility (as spouses and the offspring of those pairings, or acknowledged bastards), and one Holder.

    Minmatar are as much part of Amarr as Athrans are. Ethnic, Athran-descended Amarr make up only about a third of the entire Empire (counting slaves). Minmatar are about a quarter of the population. Why, exactly, should we leave?

    2) The whole point of the faith is the unification of creation into one Empire of God. Every member of the faith no matter where they are in the universe is loyal to at least the idea of the Empire, or they are not following the faith. We want the Empire, it is the Destiny of our Faith. Where we live outside it, is because the circumstances of life have lead us elsewhere.

    3) You are seriously suggesting that every Minmatar in the Empire should move out? What purpose does this even have? So many people in this thread have been capsuleers for too long and don't seem to understand just how economically, socially, and emotionally destabilizing it is to uproot your entire life to move somewhere else. It is neither an option for most Minmatar in the Empire nor is it an option for most Minmatar faithful in the Republic.

    Any suggestion that anyone in this thread makes that amounts to "move people to an entirely different planet in an entirely different system in an entirely different nation" is a non-solution: it's a refusal to deal with the problems and wanting to brush them under a rug somewhere else. Say what you will about slavery, about its abuses, but it was a system specifically designed under the need to answer the question: "What do you do when you have to integrate a culturally and economically outsider population?" It's the same question that the Republic deals with today in the immigration of freed slaves of Amarr faith.

    Arrendis wrote:
    Well, the Ammatar Mandate was independent(ish) for a while.


    Ish is right. The Ammatar Mandate has always been a province of the Empire. Before House Ardishapur, their lands were owned fully and completely by the Emperor Family. That's why they could be given freely to Ardishapur. The only thing they had was some limited self-governance through a line of custodians--regents acting by the authority of the Empire. They've never been "independent."

    With the re-integration of the Kingdom, the only independent Imperial province is the Republic, by rebellion.
    Tristan Valentina
    Moira.
    #134 - 2016-09-09 13:17:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tristan Valentina
    Each Matar needs to decide what they will be for themselves.

    Life is not fair, and the Matar need to recognize that.

    Stop looking to elders who would rather see us apart then together.

    A vocal government would be a nice change of pace.

    It would be nice to stop looking at the Amarr for like a single year. The Matar living outside of the Empire have just as many problems as the ones in it. Stop wasting time talking to people who will not change.

    Currently any Matar who wants citizenship in the Federation, I will gladly help you with the paper work.


    Tristan Valentina
    Arrendis
    TK Corp
    #135 - 2016-09-09 13:42:51 UTC
    Samira Kernher wrote:
    Arrendis wrote:
    Well, the Ammatar Mandate was independent(ish) for a while.


    Ish is right.


    I said ish! I know It did... lemme... no, see, there it is! That is totally an 'ish' there. See that? I got it right. I knew it. I'm amazing and awesome. I'm an engineering genius, understand complex interstellar politics, make a mean bowl of tsuivan, and I remember to check in on certain people to make sure they haven't forgotten to eat for three days again. Arrendis is great! (ish) Arrendis is great! (ish)

    Oh, and one other thing:

    Quote:
    With the re-integration of the Kingdom, the only independent Imperial province is the Republic, by rebellion.


    While technically true, I think many of us would prefer this expressed as 'the only independent territory once held by the Empire', though of course in light of the whole 'unification of creation into one Empire of God' thing, I'm sure we can at least understand why a member of the faith, speaking from a non-political vantage, wouldn't necessarily use that construction reflexively.

    So, you know, as part of the ongoing 'amazing and awesome' program here on Sinnebago, I'm totally not gonna hold it against you.

    So, we cool, right?
    Arrendis
    TK Corp
    #136 - 2016-09-09 13:56:03 UTC
    Tristan Valentina wrote:
    Each Matar needs to decide what they will be for themselves.


    Yes, thank you, we should also remember to hold our breath while swimming, check local for reds before undocking, and don't run with scissors, right?

    Quote:
    Life is not fair, and the Matar need to recognize that.


    The Matari need to recognize light isn't fair? Exactly which of us do you think has claimed life is fair? It's up to us to strive to make it as fair and just as we can, as a simple matter of moral decency and mutual interdependence.

    Quote:
    Stop looking to elders who would rather see us apart then together.

    A vocal government would be a nice change of pace.


    Did you miss the entire Parliamentary period of our history, complete with a Prime Minister? Going back to the failed and ineffective government of the past rather than trusting the elders of the Tribes whose bonds of blood bind us all together... would be a 'nice change of pace'. Ugh. No denying where your loyalties lie, is there?

    Quote:
    It would be nice to stop looking at the Amarr for like a single year. The Matar living outside of the Empire have just as many problems as the ones in it. Stop wasting time talking to people who will not change.

    Currently any Matar who wants citizenship in the Federation, I will gladly help you with the paper work.


    The irony here is rich, and laden with much crunchy nickle.
    Samira Kernher
    Cail Avetatu
    #137 - 2016-09-09 13:59:23 UTC
    Well, I don't want to get into an argument over terminology. It was an Imperial province for several hundred years and then rebelled to form an independent nation. So, call it how you like.

    And I have been eating!
    Arrendis
    TK Corp
    #138 - 2016-09-09 14:44:38 UTC
    I notice you didn't disagree with the central point of my post, too.

    Arrendis is great (ish)!

    Ok, I'll stop that now. But I'm pretty sure I'll be snickering over it for days.
    Elmund Egivand
    Tribal Liberation Force
    Minmatar Republic
    #139 - 2016-09-09 15:00:19 UTC
    Tristan Valentina wrote:
    Each Matar needs to decide what they will be for themselves.

    Life is not fair, and the Matar need to recognize that.

    Stop looking to elders who would rather see us apart then together.

    A vocal government would be a nice change of pace.

    It would be nice to stop looking at the Amarr for like a single year. The Matar living outside of the Empire have just as many problems as the ones in it. Stop wasting time talking to people who will not change.

    Currently any Matar who wants citizenship in the Federation, I will gladly help you with the paper work.


    Tristan Valentina


    Read up on the history of the Minmatar Republic before gabbing, why don't you?

    A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
    Tristan Valentina
    Moira.
    #140 - 2016-09-09 15:22:52 UTC
    My loyalties lie with the people who defended me, fought with me, helped me pursue my goals, and gave me a place to call my own. No one who shared my blood or tribe offered to help. Blood leads to nothing but "freedom fighters" attacking convoys of people who are so disconnected from any systemic problems that it is nothing but terrorism pure and simple. Arrendis you make a joke of my first comment about deciding for yourself by comparing it to the equivalent of a capsuleer breathing, but can you seriously tell me that in the past year any form of Matari leadership has even been competent enough to breath?

    I missed nothing in the parliamentary period. Even though it was weak, and fractured by the factionism of "The Tribes" at least then we had someone trying to represent us as a whole.

    The Minmatar need to try and be more then what we where in the past. The past failed, the Tribes failed something better needs to take its place. There are more of us then ever before, and yet we still cling to the idea that the Amarr owe us something and they use that to make us slaves. Stop letting the past dictate the future of the Minmatar. Once we have a strong nation for the Matari then we can take our blood back from the Amarr if that is what we as Matari want.

    Tristan Valentina