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[GalFed] Villore Assembly resolution on the crowning of Empress Catiz

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Author
Contessa della Solfete
501c3
#21 - 2016-09-05 13:49:52 UTC
Well, this is interesting. I am no longer a diplomat and only speak for myself, but here is what I have to add to this kerfuffle.

Diplomacy can only be conducted by sovereign actors, which I assume this Villore Assembly is not. You're a civics club. There's nothing wrong with being a civics club and I am sure your members find a certain measure of satisfaction and worth in participating in such a club. However, a civics club has no bearing on the diplomatic relations between sovereign state actors. A Gallente civics club has no bearing at all on the Holy Amarr Empire. Honestly, we don't care.

When I was sent to Synchelle in '03 as the cultural attache to the diplomatic mission there, it was the Throne that sent a request to the Federal Government that I be afforded diplomatic privileges as an official representative of the Holy Amarr Empire. That's how the system is supposed to work. The privileges were agreed upon well before hand in treaties establishing relationships between the Amarr Empire and the Gallente Federation. Absent any agreement, there are no privileges. However, I am also sure that there are sections in those treaties that cover the treatment of foreign nationals visiting the Amarr Empire. There are also treaties that cover capsuleers. Any Villore Assembly observers would fall under these already agreed upon treaties.

Asking to be treated as an official diplomatic representative of the Gallente Federation would require the Gallente Federation to recognize you as such official representatives and for them to ask for that through the proper channels to the Empire.

By all means, come. Just don't ask for what you are not entitled to.
Xun Yu
Sanxing
#22 - 2016-09-05 14:02:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Xun Yu
Contessa della Solfete wrote:
Well, this is interesting. I am no longer a diplomat and only speak for myself, but here is what I have to add to this kerfuffle.

Diplomacy can only be conducted by sovereign actors, which I assume this Villore Assembly is not. You're a civics club. There's nothing wrong with being a civics club and I am sure your members find a certain measure of satisfaction and worth in participating in such a club. However, a civics club has no bearing on the diplomatic relations between sovereign state actors. A Gallente civics club has no bearing at all on the Holy Amarr Empire. Honestly, we don't care.

When I was sent to Synchelle in '03 as the cultural attache to the diplomatic mission there, it was the Throne that sent a request to the Federal Government that I be afforded diplomatic privileges as an official representative of the Holy Amarr Empire. That's how the system is supposed to work. The privileges were agreed upon well before hand in treaties establishing relationships between the Amarr Empire and the Gallente Federation. Absent any agreement, there are no privileges. However, I am also sure that there are sections in those treaties that cover the treatment of foreign nationals visiting the Amarr Empire. There are also treaties that cover capsuleers. Any Villore Assembly observers would fall under these already agreed upon treaties.

Asking to be treated as an official diplomatic representative of the Gallente Federation would require the Gallente Federation to recognize you as such official representatives and for them to ask for that through the proper channels to the Empire.

By all means, come. Just don't ask for what you are not entitled to.


Contessa della Solfete,

And in your extensive time as a diplomatic attache you never saw NGOs recognised with certain diplomatic privileges and rights in order that they might pursue their agendas? Regardless of other international treaties and relations, or the status of individual members of said NGOs? Of course you did, this is a common reality of the international society, and I repeat the notion that what the Villore Assembly is asking for is somehow remarkable or beyond the pale is frankly laughable.

Thank you kindly
Taishou Xun Yu
Vice-Chair of the Villore Assembly

Sanxing - 'Three Stars' - Committed to the Jin-Mei and the Federation

Find us on your Neocom on the router: Sanxing

Arrendis
TK Corp
#23 - 2016-09-05 14:04:09 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
What is the point of your complaint about this, Mr. Onzo? Are you bored right now or something?

I am not bored, I simply take grave offence when an unofficial pressure group attempts to use language representing itself as an official diplomatic organisation and inviting themselves to an event under the same status.


Well, at least it's not some truly reviled group doing it though, right Utari? btw...

Contessa della Solfete wrote:
Diplomacy can only be conducted by sovereign actors


I should check with Mittens to see if his invitation's been received yet.
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#24 - 2016-09-05 14:07:53 UTC
Contessa della Solfete wrote:
By all means, come. Just don't ask for what you are not entitled to.


To you people who keep posting things like this, I ask: do you all realize how OFTEN this happens between sovereign nations, all the time? This is such a common thing to request.



Utari Onzo wrote:
blah blah blah how dare you grr


I remember when you were much more light hearted and fun.

I was personally responsible for a lot of the ideas tossed around for this delegation. This is not a time to whinge and shun foreigners because you think you know diplomacy more than the guy who's ended a civil war, among things. To quote one of my more conservative Amarr buddies:

Conservative Amarr Buddy™ wrote:
"I support it. The VA has no small amount of power and resources, and they do represent in no small part the hopes, goals, and intent of the Federation. I have not seen a capsuleer organization have a better working, more effective relationship with their faction than that of the Assembly."

I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.

Maria Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#25 - 2016-09-05 14:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Maria Daphiti
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:


Conservative Amarr Buddy™ wrote:
"I support it. The VA has no small amount of power and resources, and they do represent in no small part the hopes, goals, and intent of the Federation. I have not seen a capsuleer organization have a better working, more effective relationship with their faction than that of the Assembly."


PIE has a long and proud history of working with the Empire from the very beginning, to Fabricator General Ascentior's and Lieutenant Samira Kernher's leadership during the T3 destroyer research race, to Lady Admiral Newelle's leadership of Team Sarum in the trials.

http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Praetoria_Imperialis_Excubitoris
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#26 - 2016-09-05 14:16:01 UTC
Maria Daphiti wrote:
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:


Conservative Amarr Buddy™ wrote:
"I support it. The VA has no small amount of power and resources, and they do represent in no small part the hopes, goals, and intent of the Federation. I have not seen a capsuleer organization have a better working, more effective relationship with their faction than that of the Assembly."


PIE has a long and proud history of working with the Empire.

http://eve-history.net/wiki/index.php/PIE_Inc.


Well, neither one was CVA was my point.

I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#27 - 2016-09-05 14:16:20 UTC
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:
Utari Onzo wrote:
blah blah blah how dare you grr


I remember when you were much more light hearted and fun.


So do I, but even we get old, up in the brain, and start yelling things like 'all'a you kids, get off'n my region'...
Contessa della Solfete
501c3
#28 - 2016-09-05 14:24:30 UTC
Any non-governmental organization worked through the embassy or mission of the system they were in. Some might have been afforded more privileges than a foreign national would have otherwise, but nothing on the level of an actual diplomatic delegation, which is what you've asked.

Quote:
2. Requests that the members of this delegation be afforded all diplomatic rights as any other foreign delegation,


You've asked for the Villore Accords to be treated as an accredited diplomat on the same level as an official delegation from the Gallente Federation, the Caldari State, the Minmatar Republic, CONCORD, or the SOCT. This is what has caused you trouble. If you'd just announced that you were attending to observe the momentous day and all of its splendor, every Amarr would have welcomed you with open arms. If you had just announced that you were attending and requested that your delegation be given all lawful aid and protection in case of need, the Amarr would have welcomed you with open arms. However, you asked for special treatment.

Such an event is going to be crowded. There will be more people along parade routes and in cathedrals and ballrooms than could possibly fit. Even a holder like myself is pretty far down on the guest lists for the coronation galas. By asking for special treatment for your delegation, you've put yourself ahead of actual Imperial citizens and faithful subjects of Her soon to be Imperial Majesty. The reason why governments allow such important persons as ambassadors and heads of state to attend events--and put them at the head of the guest lists--is because they are important people that actually make decisions. It is far better for the Holy Amarr Empire to have a good relationship with the President of the Federation than even a few billion voters. Quid pro quo.

Come to the coronation. Have a great time; I am sure you will. Just don't assume you will be afforded any undue benefit.

If your delegation decides to swing by Nordar II and Solfete on the way back, though, as Contessa I can extend every possible courtesy for the length of your stay at my holding.
Xun Yu
Sanxing
#29 - 2016-09-05 14:31:38 UTC
Contessa della Solfete wrote:
Any non-governmental organization worked through the embassy or mission of the system they were in. Some might have been afforded more privileges than a foreign national would have otherwise, but nothing on the level of an actual diplomatic delegation, which is what you've asked.

Quote:
2. Requests that the members of this delegation be afforded all diplomatic rights as any other foreign delegation,


You've asked for the Villore Accords to be treated as an accredited diplomat on the same level as an official delegation from the Gallente Federation, the Caldari State, the Minmatar Republic, CONCORD, or the SOCT. This is what has caused you trouble. If you'd just announced that you were attending to observe the momentous day and all of its splendor, every Amarr would have welcomed you with open arms. If you had just announced that you were attending and requested that your delegation be given all lawful aid and protection in case of need, the Amarr would have welcomed you with open arms. However, you asked for special treatment.

Such an event is going to be crowded. There will be more people along parade routes and in cathedrals and ballrooms than could possibly fit. Even a holder like myself is pretty far down on the guest lists for the coronation galas. By asking for special treatment for your delegation, you've put yourself ahead of actual Imperial citizens and faithful subjects of Her soon to be Imperial Majesty. The reason why governments allow such important persons as ambassadors and heads of state to attend events--and put them at the head of the guest lists--is because they are important people that actually make decisions. It is far better for the Holy Amarr Empire to have a good relationship with the President of the Federation than even a few billion voters. Quid pro quo.

Come to the coronation. Have a great time; I am sure you will. Just don't assume you will be afforded any undue benefit.

If your delegation decides to swing by Nordar II and Solfete on the way back, though, as Contessa I can extend every possible courtesy for the length of your stay at my holding.


Contessa della Solfete,

Again allow me to repeat: what other word would you choose to use to describe being afford the legal protections and aid necessary to fulfill one's role and agenda at a foreign event if not diplomatic privileges? This seemed to the committee and to the Villore Assembly a perfectly reasonable choice of language.

As I am sure you are no doubt aware that there are among any diplomatic relationship orders of precedence based on all sorts of traditional and nuanced aspects of international affairs - the Dean of the Diplomatic Corps being the senior diplomat from amongst all diplomatic missions and so forth. As such we are quite aware that the Villore Assembly delegation would not placed in the same preeminence as say delegations from the State or CONCORD. However as you'd know from your extensive experience we would still be placed within that order. Diplomatic protections and rights do not afford delegations with equal standing, one need only look at the distinction between consulates and embassies to realise this - they are both afforded diplomatic rights but are certainly not of equal standing and have distinct roles.

We do not consider the wording of this resolution, debated at length and developed with consultation from Amarrian organisations, to be unreasonable.

Thank you kindly,
Taishou Xun Yu
Vice-Chair of the Villore Assembly

Sanxing - 'Three Stars' - Committed to the Jin-Mei and the Federation

Find us on your Neocom on the router: Sanxing

Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#30 - 2016-09-05 14:43:15 UTC
Xun Yu wrote:


Contessa della Solfete,

Again allow me to repeat: what other word would you choose to use to describe being afford the legal protections and aid necessary to fulfill one's role and agenda at a foreign event if not diplomatic privileges? This seemed to the committee and to the Villore Assembly a perfectly reasonable choice of language.

As I am sure you are no doubt aware that there are among any diplomatic relationship orders of precedence based on all sorts of traditional and nuanced aspects of international affairs - the Dean of the Diplomatic Corps being the senior diplomat from amongst all diplomatic missions and so forth. As such we are quite aware that the Villore Assembly delegation would not placed in the same preeminence as say delegations from the State or CONCORD. However as you'd know from your extensive experience we would still be placed within that order. Diplomatic protections and rights do not afford delegations with equal standing, one need only look at the distinction between consulates and embassies to realise this - they are both afforded diplomatic rights but are certainly not of equal standing and have distinct roles.

We do not consider the wording of this resolution, debated at length and developed with consultation from Amarrian organisations, to be unreasonable.

Thank you kindly,
Taishou Xun Yu
Vice-Chair of the Villore Assembly


You simply ask or politely announce that you are going to attend and unless the host refuses, the implication therein is that the host will extend to you the principle of hospitality so long as you, the guest, are respectful of the laws and customs set forth by the host. This typically includes protection against unlawful attacks, be they physical or otherwise.

By asking for special treatment, you are in fact insinuating that the host is incapable or potentially not able to afford you their hospitality and in doing so, you cause offense.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky

Arrendis
TK Corp
#31 - 2016-09-05 14:43:24 UTC
Perhaps it would be helpful to outline what 'protections and aid' you feel the Assembly delegation needs that would not be afforded a normal citizen of the Federation. Are you talking about access? A place in the receiving line at the reception? Acknowledgement of your existence and of the fact that you're unlikely at best to pull a gun and attempt to kill the Empress?

Giving people an idea of just what it is you're asking for might give them more ability to decide if they hate you for asking for it.
Lord Kailethre
Tengoo Uninstallation Service
#32 - 2016-09-05 14:47:41 UTC
To all Empire loyal in this thread openly criticising the VA for wishing to attend the coronation cwremony you forget your places. None of you have the authority to deny this resolution, which is clearly a simple internal note of a desire to attend, and quite a few of you are barely even in a position to represent the Amarr.

This thread is merely an attempt for the Assembly to maintain its transparency, not a demand for their delegation to be accepted or admitted. It is up to those who lead to make this decision. If you are so anathemic to the notion of diplomacy between two great nations then I suggest you take your bitterness to field, instead of attacking a well meaning group who are clearly trying their best to promote peace and stability in the cluster.
Zekiel Iyhr
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#33 - 2016-09-05 14:47:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Zekiel Iyhr
Xun Yu wrote:


We do not consider the wording of this resolution, debated at length and developed with consultation from Amarrian organisations, to be unreasonable.

Thank you kindly,
Taishou Xun Yu
Vice-Chair of the Villore Assembly



Nor I. I too had my fingers dipped within this pot, and I aided it to fruition. I know not why so many are contesting such things when all the Assembly has done is make an announcement of its intent to attend as a diplomatic function. The wording is that which is fitting enough for the courts, and as such, fitting enough for me. Mayhaps I am missing the gene that causes me to be upset at such small things. Such things elude me.



Regardless... We should be welcoming, taking this as a time to show off the Empire's hospitality and power. This is the time for the finest the Empire has to offer in one of its finest days, instead of petty bickering.


Edit:

Lord Kailethre wrote:
None of you have the authority to deny this resolution, which is clearly a simple internal note of a desire to attend, and quite a few of you are barely even in a position to represent the Amarr.


Well, I did not want to say it, but... Yes, these are very true feelings.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#34 - 2016-09-05 14:52:39 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
Teinyhr wrote:
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
What is the point of your complaint about this, Mr. Onzo? Are you bored right now or something?


Frankly I do not find him to be in the wrong here, at all. Regardless of the Assemblies achievements, it is essentially a capsuleer hobby club, and nothing more, and should be treated as such as a political entity.

And what are you trying to accomplish? (Here and now, or on a larger scale.)


I do not understand your question. Well, I kind of do, but please do be more specific unless you want me to detail my schedule to you for the next six months.
Contessa della Solfete
501c3
#35 - 2016-09-05 14:55:58 UTC
Xun Yu wrote:

Contessa della Solfete,

Again allow me to repeat: what other word would you choose to use to describe being afford the legal protections and aid necessary to fulfill one's role and agenda at a foreign event if not diplomatic privileges? This seemed to the committee and to the Villore Assembly a perfectly reasonable choice of language.

As I am sure you are no doubt aware that there are among any diplomatic relationship orders of precedence based on all sorts of traditional and nuanced aspects of international affairs - the Dean of the Diplomatic Corps being the senior diplomat from amongst all diplomatic missions and so forth. As such we are quite aware that the Villore Assembly delegation would not placed in the same preeminence as say delegations from the State or CONCORD. However as you'd know from your extensive experience we would still be placed within that order. Diplomatic protections and rights do not afford delegations with equal standing, one need only look at the distinction between consulates and embassies to realise this - they are both afforded diplomatic rights but are certainly not of equal standing and have distinct roles.

We do not consider the wording of this resolution, debated at length and developed with consultation from Amarrian organisations, to be unreasonable.

Thank you kindly,
Taishou Xun Yu
Vice-Chair of the Villore Assembly

I do not know which Amarrian organization you consulted with, but I will say that language is flawed and faulty. Treaties, like all legal documents, are subjected to intense scrutiny as to the language and grammar. A misplaced comma can cost millions of ISK.

The Villore Accords are not a 'foreign delegation' anymore than myself and my entourage would be to visit Caille to shop. While I am sure I would save a fortune on parking with diplomatic markings on my vehicle, it's not going to happen.

Now, as Mlle. Saissore said, if you're just asking for the same protection as every other foreign national visiting the Empire, there's no need for a second point. It will be afforded regardless. The only reason for point two would be that you are requesting additional courtesies and privileges not usually afforded to foreign nationals.

So, are you asking for something else beyond the normal aid and protection accorded to foreign nationals visiting the Empire?
Lord Kailethre
Tengoo Uninstallation Service
#36 - 2016-09-05 15:04:25 UTC
Contessa della Solfete wrote:

The Villore Accords are not a 'foreign delegation'



Clearly you are not acquainted with the works of the Assembly. At all.
Contessa della Solfete
501c3
#37 - 2016-09-05 15:15:43 UTC
By all means, Lord Kailethre, enlighten me with your decades of wisdom and experience in interstellar politics and diplomacy.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#38 - 2016-09-05 15:17:52 UTC
Lord Kailethre wrote:
Contessa della Solfete wrote:

The Villore Accords are not a 'foreign delegation'



Clearly you are not acquainted with the works of the Assembly. At all.


A 'foreign delegation' does not mean 'a delegation of foreigners', but rather 'an official delegation of representatives from a foreign sovereign power'. The Federation's official delegation would be a foreign delegation. A delegation from the system government of Dodixie would be expected to go through the diplomatic channels of their own government in order to be attached to the Federal delegation. Similarly, a delegation acting on the behalf of - and with official sanction from - the planetary government of Caldari Prime would be expected to be part of the State delegation. Absent any official imprimatur from the Federal government, an NGO is not a 'foreign delegation', but rather a 'non-state delegation', which is rather a different thing.

Also, do not let Sion Kumitomo get started on the intricacies of diplomacy between sovereign powers and their constituent members, systems, corporations, and trade associations, the man will talk for days. I think I saw a guy from SMA chewing his own leg off to escape... which was odd, because all he had to do was turn off the holo.

But hey, Monkeys, amirite?
Contessa della Solfete
501c3
#39 - 2016-09-05 15:31:22 UTC
To answer your question, Director Arrendis, whether The Mittani could be considered a sovereign actor for the purpose of formal relations with the Amarr Empire is tricky. CONCORD treaties might come into play. The organizational stricture of the Imperium, the formal structure, corporations and alliances are all subject to CONCORD oversight. I think the point is moot, though.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#40 - 2016-09-05 16:04:51 UTC
Contessa della Solfete wrote:
To answer your question, Director Arrendis, whether The Mittani could be considered a sovereign actor for the purpose of formal relations with the Amarr Empire is tricky. CONCORD treaties might come into play. The organizational stricture of the Imperium, the formal structure, corporations and alliances are all subject to CONCORD oversight. I think the point is moot, though.


It likely is moot, but as Goonswarm holds sovereignty under CONCORD's structure, we would be considered a sovereign entity under their criteria.