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Marauder Overhaul, Carriers OP
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Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1 - 2016-09-03 14:32:38 UTC
Marauders need a change. Their hulls cost roughly the same as a carrier, yet they're far less capable.

Marauders have less DPS than a carrier.
Less defensive HP than a carrier.
They're unable to jump drive themselves to beacons.
Marauder max targeting range is like 5% of a carriers.
Carriers have a ship maintenance bay and a fleet hangar.

Compared to carriers (not force auxiliary), there is no justification for a marauder hull to cost as much.

I feel Marauders need something to justify pilots choosing them over other ships.

Here are some suggestions I think might make the marauder a more appealing option compared to carriers:
Allow refitting with weapons timer.
Allow micro jump drive use in bastion mode.
Lower construction materials needed to construct to result in a 33% decrease in hull cost.


Here is a table of isk efficiencies of golems and t1 carriers:

Golem: 29%
Kronos: 42%
Paladin: 35%
Vargur: 39%

Chimera: 74.9%
Thanatos: 74.9%
Archon: 77%
Nidhoggur: 83%

While not definitive proof, their isk efficiencies as listed by a popular kill board site is an indicator as to how effective of a ship a marauder is in comparison to a carrier.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#2 - 2016-09-03 15:07:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Builders set the price for starters. So do you and your kind playing moon goo games. Make your own and sell them at cost if this bother your that much. I'd buy a few...then sell at the decent markup everyone else uses.

Marauders you also have to look at grand scheme. IE empire. Where there is no carrier pve. And by many accounts they smash level 4's across the board. MJD snipe, drop in bastion and tank like a champ with little to no shiny mod need....they are great in empire.

Most things will fail in comparison versus carriers. Thing is empire bears don't get that option. And marauder therefore gets to shine there. I sold mine (rail Kronos) for the oddest reason. Pve was too boring from being sleep inducing easy. Well that and in the year I was away damn near it shot up 300mil ish in price at what I bought it at. No BP changes I know of in that year....someone got greedy. Builders or moon goo barons. And my mission pve alt can't fly it when the main leaves empire to return to pvp...I sold out for the 300 mil bonus and went back to rattlesnake which main and alt can fly fin.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#3 - 2016-09-03 15:14:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Zan Shiro wrote:
Builders set the price for starters. So do you and your kind playing moon goo games. Make your own and sell them at cost if this bother your that much. I'd buy a few...then sell at the decent markup everyone else uses.

Marauders you also have to look at grand scheme. IE empire. Where there is no carrier pve. And by many accounts they smash level 4's across the board. MJD snipe, drop in bastion and tank like a champ with little to no shiny mod need....they are great in empire.

Most things will fail in comparison versus carriers. Thing is empire bears don't get that option. And marauder therefore gets to shine there. I sold mine (rail Kronos) for the oddest reason. Pve was too boring from being sleep inducing easy. Well that and in the year I was away damn near it shot up 300mil ish in price at what I bought it at. No BP changes I know of in that year....someone got greedy. Builders or moon goo barons. And my mission pve alt can't fly it when the main leaves empire to return to pvp...I sold out for the 300 mil bonus and went back to rattlesnake which main and alt can fly fin.


I said lower the building requirements in a manner that would result in a 33% reduction in hull price.

Also T3 cruisers can perform nearly as well in empire L4's for less than the price of a cheaply fit marauder, and with marauders being far and beyond "overkill" for an L4, a T3 is all that's necessary.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2016-09-03 15:26:10 UTC
I love my Marauders. They are the most perfectly balanced ships in the game. Each one is pretty much perfect in it's own right. Keep your ****ing hands off them.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#5 - 2016-09-03 15:30:07 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
I love my Marauders. They are the most perfectly balanced ships in the game. Each one is pretty much perfect in it's own right. Keep your ****ing hands off them.


I disagree.

I feel the benefits do not justify the cost.
Paranoid Loyd
#6 - 2016-09-03 15:53:04 UTC
No poors. Isk is ridiculously easy to make. You wanna change the cost? Start manipulating the market as those that have driven up the price have.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2016-09-03 15:57:42 UTC
Well then don't use them?

I love covet my marauders and use them all the time. Others also use them extensively in highsec, nullsec, and wormholes. Marauders get tons of use. And I get livid whenever someone wants to make changes (usually to the Paladin), as the only thing you'll end up with is a nerf you really didn't want and never saw coming.

There's hundreds of other ships available for you to use. All of them have balances of strengths and weaknesses, as they all should. If a marauder doesn't fit your needs, I'm almost certain a pirate hull will be much closer to fitting the bill.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#8 - 2016-09-03 17:06:43 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Marauders need a change. Their hulls cost roughly the same as a carrier, yet they're far less capable...


That is your sov-sec's fault, not the ship's fault. Make moon poo cost less, marauder cheap, very easy stuff.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#9 - 2016-09-03 17:11:28 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Marauders need a change. Their hulls cost roughly the same as a carrier, yet they're far less capable...


That is your sov-sec's fault, not the ship's fault. Make moon poo cost less, marauder cheap, very easy stuff.


Or just reduce the required parts necessary to bring the cost of the ship in line with it's capabilities.

Marauders hulls being 1b+ considering the cost of a t1 carrier and it's capabilities is an indicator that either carrier hulls need an increase in required materials or marauders need a reduction of required materials.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#10 - 2016-09-03 17:13:42 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Well then don't use them?

I love covet my marauders and use them all the time. Others also use them extensively in highsec, nullsec, and wormholes. Marauders get tons of use. And I get livid whenever someone wants to make changes (usually to the Paladin), as the only thing you'll end up with is a nerf you really didn't want and never saw coming.

There's hundreds of other ships available for you to use. All of them have balances of strengths and weaknesses, as they all should. If a marauder doesn't fit your needs, I'm almost certain a pirate hull will be much closer to fitting the bill.


lol, no
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#11 - 2016-09-03 17:16:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
No poors. Isk is ridiculously easy to make. You wanna change the cost? Start manipulating the market as those that have driven up the price have.


OK

The hyperbole is cool and all, but if anyone would like to throw down some facts it might make the conversation a little more productive.

So far it's just me making valid observations and documenting facts with a bunch of dudes talking about their feelings and how their emotions are suppose to be important in dictating game balance.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#12 - 2016-09-03 17:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Divine Entervention wrote:


I said lower the building requirements in a manner that would result in a 33% reduction in hull price.

Also T3 cruisers can perform nearly as well in empire L4's for less than the price of a cheaply fit marauder, and with marauders being far and beyond "overkill" for an L4, a T3 is all that's necessary.



Tengu can perform almost as well. other 3 iffy really, they shine in wh's where things like effects can aid them (i.e., wolf rayet ofr armour tanks). Unless you have a loki fit I have not seen yet that gets good dps....at range. BY range I mean 24-30 (Hamgu) or my preferred HMLgu (100 km's t1, about 70 Fury). I am all ears to that.

Tengu can and will also be slower run times. My rail kronos and now rattlesnake can cut even t1 tick off some missions full clear kill em all.

And if you haven't built t2 bs'....they have quite a bit of markup. Make them cheaper in build costs, they will still sell almost same price levels. I used to make blops. I isk warred, used the dreaded free mins pricing sometimes (miss the drone poop loot days, really I do lol), sold to people in alliance at very good friendship discounts and made good isk all the same.

T2 BS's don't have bpo's. We aren't undercut by bpo owners saying sell it cheap to get back the ROI. They are a limited market. And most sellers don't isk war to cut throat levels here. We are selling limited use items...we don't have to get our stack of 200 dead common item to the top of the jita charts.

Bears want their marauder. No other ship can do what blops does. People will pay for this. And yes we do charge.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#13 - 2016-09-03 18:03:43 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:


I said lower the building requirements in a manner that would result in a 33% reduction in hull price.

Also T3 cruisers can perform nearly as well in empire L4's for less than the price of a cheaply fit marauder, and with marauders being far and beyond "overkill" for an L4, a T3 is all that's necessary.



Tengu can perform almost as well. other 3 iffy really, they shine in wh's where things like effects can aid them (i.e., wolf rayet ofr armour tanks). Unless you have a loki fit I have not seen yet that gets good dps....at range. BY range I mean 24-30 (Hamgu) or my preferred HMLgu (100 km's t1, about 70 Fury). I am all ears to that.

Tengu can and will also be slower run times. My rail kronos and now rattlesnake can cut even t1 tick off some missions full clear kill em all.

And if you haven't built t2 bs'....they have quite a bit of markup. Make them cheaper in build costs, they will still sell almost same price levels. I used to make blops. I isk warred, used the dreaded free mins pricing sometimes (miss the drone poop loot days, really I do lol), sold to people in alliance at very good friendship discounts and made good isk all the same.

T2 BS's don't have bpo's. We aren't undercut by bpo owners saying sell it cheap to get back the ROI. They are a limited market. And most sellers don't isk war to cut throat levels here. We are selling limited use items...we don't have to get our stack of 200 dead common item to the top of the jita charts.

Bears want their marauder. No other ship can do what blops does. People will pay for this. And yes we do charge.


O yea good point, the rattlesnake is just as effective at PvE as a marauder, hull being 1/2 to 1/3 the cost.

The T3 cruiser was just the first adept PvE ship I thought of, but now that you mention it, the rattlesnake is even better than some marauders at PvE and way cheaper.

Even more reason to justify lowering the required building materials of marauders from 33% to now even as low as 50% needed building materials.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#14 - 2016-09-03 18:33:24 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:


Even more reason to justify lowering the required building materials of marauders from 33% to now even as low as 50% needed building materials.



I do see your point.

Thing is with the marauders they saw a price surge in the rebalance pass that had almost nothing to do with build costs. Besides the changes to the base t1 BS in the build ofc. And eyeballing that....tier 1 - 3 went up roughy 50-70 mil on average. Not the 300 mil spike I took advantage of lol.

It started with speculation on the bastion ability. If memory servers marauder prices spiked a bit while this was only at dev blog level lol. So you saw higher prices for a marauder even before its new ability.


Market pvp, quite possibly the most brutal and all encompassing pvp aspect to this game.
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#15 - 2016-09-03 19:15:37 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Marauders need a change. Their hulls cost roughly the same as a carrier, yet they're far less capable.

..


You are comparing apples and oranges, essentially two very different ship roles at two different tech levels. You can't really compare their price relative to their different stats.


Marauders were designed as top of the line Tech II mission boats purposely gimped at Pvp.
Carriers are designed as entry level Capital Ships with counter sub-cap and counter capital remote warfare capability.

You might as well be comparing the prices of toasters to drill presses.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#16 - 2016-09-03 20:21:58 UTC
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Marauders need a change. Their hulls cost roughly the same as a carrier, yet they're far less capable.

..


You are comparing apples and oranges, essentially two very different ship roles at two different tech levels. You can't really compare their price relative to their different stats.


Marauders were designed as top of the line Tech II mission boats purposely gimped at Pvp.
Carriers are designed as entry level Capital Ships with counter sub-cap and counter capital remote warfare capability.

You might as well be comparing the prices of toasters to drill presses.




Purposefully gimped at pvp?
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#17 - 2016-09-03 20:54:25 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Marauders need a change. Their hulls cost roughly the same as a carrier, yet they're far less capable.

..


You are comparing apples and oranges, essentially two very different ship roles at two different tech levels. You can't really compare their price relative to their different stats.


Marauders were designed as top of the line Tech II mission boats purposely gimped at Pvp.
Carriers are designed as entry level Capital Ships with counter sub-cap and counter capital remote warfare capability.

You might as well be comparing the prices of toasters to drill presses.




Purposefully gimped at pvp?



Yes, sensor strength was purposely set low to allow them to be easily jammed, before Bastion Mode was added years after they were originally released. Bastion Mode changes that, at a cost of immobility while it is active.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#18 - 2016-09-03 23:11:05 UTC
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Marauders need a change. Their hulls cost roughly the same as a carrier, yet they're far less capable.

..


You are comparing apples and oranges, essentially two very different ship roles at two different tech levels. You can't really compare their price relative to their different stats.


Marauders were designed as top of the line Tech II mission boats purposely gimped at Pvp.
Carriers are designed as entry level Capital Ships with counter sub-cap and counter capital remote warfare capability.

You might as well be comparing the prices of toasters to drill presses.




Purposefully gimped at pvp?



Yes, sensor strength was purposely set low to allow them to be easily jammed, before Bastion Mode was added years after they were originally released. Bastion Mode changes that, at a cost of immobility while it is active.



Still, hull prices vs capability, marauder is drastically lacking behind.

It needs to have its potential beefed up or its cost trimmed down.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2016-09-04 00:09:39 UTC
This probably the most ******** case of apples and oranges I've see in a long time but I'll bite

Marauders don't align like a whale
They warp significantly faster
They can enter gated dead space
Mjd
Higher active tank compared to a carrier
No fighter management
Allowed in high sec
Can enter wormholes that capitals cannot cross
Immune to ewar

Art of Explosions
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining
#20 - 2016-09-04 02:36:03 UTC
A thorax costs less than an enyo too. Does that mean that the enyo is massively overpriced, or does it mean that build cost shouldn't be the first limiting factor?

You're completely ignoring the benefits of mauraders simply because you want to shoehorn it into what you want it to do, which is be a carrier and be the same price as a carrier.

They are simply two different ships for two different roles.
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