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Dev blog: Clone States – Post Announcement Follow-up

First post
Author
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2016-09-02 17:11:18 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I didn't see any reference to the fact that Eve is beginning to be marketed as free to play in the media. It's likely to be marketed the same way on Steam. How do we reconcile the fact that people are going to come in expecting free to play and find that Eve literally supports pay to win "golden ammo" (Scorch, Null, Barrage, etc). How do we reconcile the fact that paying players will do over 2x the DPS in the same ship as alpha players? How do we prevent this from smacking of pay to win, and give them a reasonable enough Eve experience to get them hooked?

-Liang

To have the "golden ammo" effect the game has to start out free i think that ship sailed 13 years ago, same BS different thread.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#22 - 2016-09-02 17:27:57 UTC
now I won't get arrested for flying with an expired pilot's license
Saoirse Flowerchild
last rose of summer
#23 - 2016-09-02 17:31:18 UTC
Please do not limit safety to green/yellow.

quoted from the official EVE New Player FAQ:
http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/communityassets/pdf/EVE-Online-New-Pilot-FAQ.pdf

Quote:
"7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
"No; There are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided."


Quote:
"pilots are willing to accept the expense of losing their ship to CONCORD and having their security status lowered for their crimes. So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time."


Quote:
"...the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)". - CCP Solomon


EVE is a PVP game, a game about non-consensual pvp even.
If you limit alpha clones to green/yellow you take away what is (for me) one of the corner stones of EVE's Spirit.

If you would just give alpha clones the same limitations as you give current trial accounts (eg no trial instance running on the same pc which runs a paid instance + the skill limits) it would solve all of the issues that people have with alphas at the moment.

If you don't want to do that, limiting them to maybe one or two extra accounts per PC is (in my opinion) still a much better option than taking away one of the fundamental freedoms of EVE.

That some of the CSM and devs even consider limiting the safety settings makes me feel really uneasy.
Velores Prokhozai
Sad Frog Space Fighters
#24 - 2016-09-02 17:49:53 UTC
And we still have not solid answer even about multiboxing problem, wich is on first place, along with dozens other less critical problems. I am worried a lot.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2016-09-02 17:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Jenn aSide wrote:
From this blog
Quote:
We are exploring options to address this and also consulting our security and customer support team, as most of the negative behavior would depend on multi-plexing or automation, both of which are big no-no's.


This is naive in the extreme (Im sorry to sound harsh, but that whole blog entry is naive, and I'm going to end up book marking it like I did this one). The possible negative behavior we are warning about requires no such thing. Or does CCP not realize that Drone Assist is still a feature of their game?

Have to second this, the wording sounds like getting the point to 99% but still missing it. The effective possibility to multi-box (which is legal in general) an account + only one alpha will make EvE a completely different game, because every Omega would use an Alpha alt to web, scout, probe, provide drones, add. DPS, ewar, etc. I personally would not undock anymore without one of my 100 alts stored ready to use in all relevant systems.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#26 - 2016-09-02 18:01:37 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:

To have the "golden ammo" effect the game has to start out free i think that ship sailed 13 years ago, same BS different thread.


The game is starting out free to new players.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Harry Hero
of the Apocalypse
#27 - 2016-09-02 18:06:15 UTC
Remove attribute mapping please.

Let the choice be what I want to train now, not what I think I want for the next 12 months.

You know it makes sense.

Simple set all attributes to 27, 23 25 or whatever, just remove the bad choices.

Implants.... save that for another day and another discussion.
VicturusTeSaluto
The Kronos Ritual
#28 - 2016-09-02 18:18:02 UTC
Upon recently returning I found the game to be depressingly empty, and while CCP really needs to do something to address the stagnation I fear this will not be a positive move.

The last time that CCP made a major push focusing on noobs in frigs(FW) was the beginning of the end for EVE, this could be the death knell.

FW focused on noobs in frigs and lead to everyone I knew, allies, enemies, acquaintances etc leaving the game within a short period of time.

Low sec used to thrive with just about everything. Ratters, miners, traders, industrialists, mission runners, explorers, pirates, anti-pies, mercs etc... As soon as they turned those regions into zones for noobs in frigs all of the ratters, miners, industrialists, mission runners, antipies, and generally non-combat oriented types deserted due to the startling appearance of fleets in local(give them 1 or 2 red flashy and they hardly notice, a constant fleet of noobs in frigs and they freak), node lag etc. Not long after that all the pirates left because noobs in frigs are not interesting or profitable targets for end-game piracy when you were used to going after marauders, faction bs, exhumers, capitals etc... Now we are at the point where a day-long low sec roam, even on the weekend is not likely to produce anything good because low sec was depopulated for good by FW.


So we are back at the point of adding more content geared solely towards noobs in frigs. So will we have massive t1 frig or cruiser fleets going around scaring off actual players just by being a general eyesore and/or causing node lag? Seems pretty likely to me!
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2016-09-02 18:19:17 UTC
HandelsPharmi wrote:
Zappity wrote:
A limit on simultaneous alpha clone logins would be good enough. I hope you can manage that.


You cannot control it.
Not even with the player`s IP adress...
Not even with the MAC adress of your network card...



Yes they can. Tie every account to a human being (name, address, credit card number, mobile phone number, voice verification, facebook/google sso, etc). Don't allow anybody to create an account without verification. Then just limit the account logins per human to 1. 99.9% of people won't have enough of those to create more than 2 accounts.

.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2016-09-02 18:51:22 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Why wouldn't these veteran players just use their Omega clones to gank new players? Or a trial account? Or an second Omega account paid for by skill extraction?
Instant, unlimited and costless scaling? That can be easily grown into extraction funded Omegas at lower cost than current new accounts as well. So long as you can field the correct numbers there is no downside, especially as an augmentation to Omega clone characters.

Black Pedro wrote:
But as to highsec ganking, let new players experience all the game has to offer, including playing as a highsec criminal. If ganking really does take off for some reason and highsec denizens can't be safe, CCP can always nerf ganking yet again, or better yet, spend some development time on completely revamping how the highsec crime, war and contraband systems work.
Making limits on the number of Alphas accessible to a single player at the same time would have no effect on new players getting an opportunity to experience ganking whatsoever. I don't see any mention of adding any limits to safeties or other artificial barriers in the post you responded to so from the standpoint of a genuine new player that should be a non-issue.

Liang Nuren wrote:
I didn't see any reference to the fact that Eve is beginning to be marketed as free to play in the media. It's likely to be marketed the same way on Steam. How do we reconcile the fact that people are going to come in expecting free to play and find that Eve literally supports pay to win "golden ammo" (Scorch, Null, Barrage, etc). How do we reconcile the fact that paying players will do over 2x the DPS in the same ship as alpha players? How do we prevent this from smacking of pay to win, and give them a reasonable enough Eve experience to get them hooked?

-Liang
This is literally a non-change since the game launched effectively. Eve has had golden ships and ammo gated behind money in one way or another since they were introduced, whether it be time that must be paid for or more recently injectors that can be obtained. And the reputation of EvE's training system will almost certainly continue to have the perception of being the greater factor separating haves and have nots in the game.

As far as reconciling differences in effectiveness, we haven't for 13 years. Why do we need to now? It's anything but a new condition and it's always been affecting new players, paid or not. What about this fundamentally changes the dynamic or creates the need for equal effectiveness on an infinite trial, which is what it is and needs to be managed as regardless of what gaming media calls it.

The worst thing they can do is back down on the limits and further confuse the nature of what Alpha clones are while diminishing the value of Omegas.
Nou Mene
Krypted Gaming
K R Y P T E D
#31 - 2016-09-02 18:54:03 UTC
My 2 cents:
- I think unlimited-time trial maight sound better than free to play.
-Need to feed new rbos some content. If you already limiting to the selected faction, why not push new guys into epic arcs or something akin that so they can get lore/PvE/tutorials in one big package than spoons feeds them content for a week or so?
Chan'aar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2016-09-02 19:10:05 UTC
Right so the two biggest area's of concern your player base has point out, CCP is not concerned about.

/me gets popcorn.
Makalu Zarya
The Maverick Navy
#33 - 2016-09-02 19:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Makalu Zarya
So from what I understand (I didn't read the previous blog in great detail), you guys are attempting to follow Wargaming's approach to f2p or p2w, whichever term you'd like to describe this.

However with World of Tanks/Warships you have to keep in mind that ~90% of the content is essentially free. You do not need a premium tank, you do not need gold ammo to win games or to even make money. Yes playing high tier tanks/ships is hard w/o premium but it can be done.

Here you essentially calling it free to play, however you are providing 5% of the actual game. The skill limits are absolutely laughable. There are very few productive things you can do with those skills. Perhaps if you expand the list to say ~50 million skill points and to the point where you can at least fly T1 ships with T1 guns perfectly it would be worth talking about. Another option to differentiate f2p vs. "premium" or "alpha" vs "omega" (call it what you like, it's the same thing) is perhaps somehow make it harder for the alpha clone to make isk. Various ways this could be achieved, slower mining, lower payouts from ratting, plexes, etc. At the end of the day however you are still letting people play the game for the most part. It will be their choice whether to pay or not to pay. Judging by wargaming it has worked out very well for them. Everyone I know who plays has a number of premium tanks/ships they paid for, most people purchase premium on and off. All of these people are current or mostly former eve players as well.

Right now this whole idea feels like an expanded, trial, which I think is a start. If you want to broaden the community, which is badly needed btw, you need to make it more than just an extended trial. You want to make people want to play for free and show them advantages of paying. Hopefully you are heading that way, however given the last few years of questionable decisions, I have serious doubts.

-Maka
Black Pedro
Mine.
#34 - 2016-09-02 19:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Instant, unlimited and costless scaling? That can be easily grown into extraction funded Omegas at lower cost than current new accounts as well. So long as you can field the correct numbers there is no downside, especially as an augmentation to Omega clone characters.
This already exists. I can run as many ganking (or scout or PI or mining) accounts as my computer can handle today for no cost by selling my SP. In fact today, I still make several hundred million ISK per month even if I don't undock a single character on those accounts.

Why would there suddenly be a land-rush to create even more ganking accounts when anyone who has the interest can do so today? Inferior ganking accounts for that matter and ones that don't pay you to keep them running like an SP farm does.

Don't get me wrong, I think steps should be taken to limit veteran players from exploiting these Alpha accounts for all purposes including multiboxing ganking fleets. But this hysteria that highsec is going to collapse under the weight of 10 000 new highsec criminals is completely unfounded in reality. If people want to multibox free gank fleets they can do so today, no need to wait until November.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Making limits on the number of Alphas accessible to a single player at the same time would have no effect on new players getting an opportunity to experience ganking whatsoever. I don't see any mention of adding any limits to safeties or other artificial barriers in the post you responded to so from the standpoint of a genuine new player that should be a non-issue.
Did you not read the devblogs? CCP said that the second "clearest point" to emerge from the discussion so far was whether to use the safety system to lock Alpha accounts out from committing criminal acts. I have no problem with locking Alpha accounts to one or a few per person and think this probably will be necessary in the end. I do have a problem with locking potential customers out from a whole section of intended gameplay for unfounded reasons like the one Mr. Teg articulated.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#35 - 2016-09-02 19:16:09 UTC
Will there be a max wallet cap (in isk) on alpha clones, dealing with market bots is rough Question

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2016-09-02 19:24:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:

To have the "golden ammo" effect the game has to start out free i think that ship sailed 13 years ago, same BS different thread.


The game is starting out free to new players.

-Liang
A new feature of the game Clone states : Alpha is free, the games business model has not altered from subscription based, get your facts straight.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2016-09-02 19:31:39 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
This already exists. I can run as many ganking (or scout or PI or mining) accounts as my computer can handle today for no cost by selling my SP. In fact today, I still make several hundred million ISK per month even if I don't undock a single character on those accounts.

Why would there suddenly be a land-rush to create even more ganking accounts when anyone who has the interest can do so today? Inferior ganking accounts for that matter and ones that don't pay you to keep them running like an SP farm does.

Don't get me wrong, I think steps should be taken to limit veteran players from exploiting these Alpha accounts for all purposes including multiboxing ganking fleets. But this hysteria that highsec is going to collapse under the weight of 10 000 new highsec criminals is completely unfounded in reality. If people want to multibox free gank fleets they can do so today, no need to wait until November.
The point there is near costless expansion, especially for those not currently selling SP. For a farming alt you're 2 months and change in the hole before you see a return (unless I math failed, which happens). With these you're able to see a return by maxing out the free portion of the SP the getting ~3 injectors from the first PLEX/sub month invested. The return lowers initial investment, which I would expect to have some effect on people considering but not yet committing to SP sale characters.

Or maybe not. Maybe the price being about a third of what it currently is doesn't matter because to anyone interested considers that trivial. And maybe anyone who wants to scale to x free accounts has already effectively done so and this wouldn't have an effect just through the reduced effort required.

But I'd rather err of the safe side and work under the assumption that lowering the barrier will increase participation.

Black Pedro wrote:
Did you not read the devblogs? CCP said that the second "clearest point" to emerge from the discussion so far was whether to use the safety system to lock Alpha accounts out from committing criminal acts. I have no problem with locking Alpha accounts to one or a few per person and think this probably will be necessary in the end. I do have a problem with locking potential customers out from a whole section of intended gameplay for unfounded reasons like the one Mr. Teg articulated.
Allow me to be more specific, I didn't see any mention of it in the post you responded to, as opposed to the blog itself. As far as his reasons being unfounded, as stated there are real and quantifiable differences at hand that I'd prefer a rather safe than sorry approach.

Because really, what change has ever been introduced that hasn't seen unexpected/unintended results?
Soleil Fournier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2016-09-02 19:50:34 UTC
"As we mentioned in the Q and A, we know we can use the safety system to ensure there won’t be a problem if we need to, but we still aren’t sure if that will be necessary."

Seems like the best decision here is to err on the side of caution and enforce safeties temporarily. Lets wait a month or two for the dust to settle on Alphas and let players get used to it without having to worry about mass highsec ganking. Then after that, when things are for sure running smooth, relax the restrictions on safeties. That way you can focus on the results, players aren't overwhelmed with negative stuff on Alphas from the start, and you could revert the safeties back if necessary.

That seems like a good compromise to me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#39 - 2016-09-02 20:04:53 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:
A new feature of the game Clone states : Alpha is free, the games business model has not altered from subscription based, get your facts straight.


The game's business model is kinda irrelevant. Right now the entire internet is abuzz with "Eve Online goes Free to Play", not "Eve Online extends trial accounts". New players are going to walk into this with false expectations. Again, how do we manage that and prevent it from being pay to win online?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2016-09-02 20:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Daylan Vokan
Liang Nuren wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
A new feature of the game Clone states : Alpha is free, the games business model has not altered from subscription based, get your facts straight.


The game's business model is kinda irrelevant. Right now the entire internet is abuzz with "Eve Online goes Free to Play", not "Eve Online extends trial accounts". New players are going to walk into this with false expectations. Again, how do we manage that and prevent it from being pay to win online?

-Liang

Oh like these quotes from the larger online media pools

"After over a decade with a straight subscription model, the massively multiplayer space RPG EVE: Online is adding a free-to-play tier. While paid accounts will still exist for new and old players alike, the new free accounts will give gamers basic access to the vast EVE universe, "New Eden." "



"13-years after its launch, EVE Online is going free-to-play, developer CCP Games has announced. The new subscription-free experience is being introduced by way of a feature called "Clone States."

The game will create two variants of players: Alpha Clones and Omega Clones. The former are able to "train and use a specific set of skills to fly some of the most often-used ships." Although these characters are able to experience the majority of the EVE Online's gameplay experience, their character development is somewhat restricted and they train skills at a slower rate than usual. They serve as a base character for those playing for free.

The Omega Clones, meanwhile, represent the current EVE players paying for access. They have "unlimited access to skill progression and rapid skill training." An active subscription can be purchased to develop an Alpha Clone into an Omega Clone. Those that allow their subscription to lapse will revert to an Alpha state; unlocked skills exclusive to the Omega Clones will be preserved, but won't be accessible until the a subscription is renewed."

Space-bastard MMO EVE Online [official site] will go free-to-play in November, devs CCP announced today. It’ll introduce a new limited character type that anyone can play for free, keeping The Good Stuff for people who pay a subscription fee. Which is probably a good way to get more people into EVE.


So after all this hype where every single one still mentions in there articles that its still subs based but has a free option to play you still think theyre trying to dupe people .......