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Dev Blog: Bidding Farewell to the In-game Browser

First post First post First post
Author
Feodor Mihailovici
Mare Anguis
#381 - 2016-07-14 17:30:21 UTC
Suggestion to CCP: implement a mechanism similar to IETab or Google Chrome Frame, launch what the user has installed (Chrome/Opera/FF/etc.) inside the game. Look here for more info: http://www.geek.com/news/google-chrome-frame-run-chrome-inside-internet-explorer-911361/

I don't think that "forcing" users to have Chrome installed in order for the "new" IGB to work will be an issue for anyone. You can force the IGB to always launch the browser inside it by using the aformentioned technologies, while disabling any other option to use IGB natively . This should be both as secure as Chrome is at the respective time, and functional. My 0.02
Tony Tuco
Air
The Initiative.
#382 - 2016-07-25 12:56:04 UTC
I only resubbed 3 days ago, I dont need a fully supported browser. I DO need to be able to link/view cat&dog pictures/gifs. For a single account, on a laptop, living in k-space, it is all I need.

Dankmemes are a part of EvE culture, and I fear that without an ability in game to open said memes, something truely special about EvE will be lost. A metric I'm sure you dont track is how many new players are linked funny gifs/pics and continue through the isk/sp grind because "dis dogge iz funneh". Certainly I've joined corps/alliances based on how they can smack in local. No gifs No fun :P

I just want to be sure this isnt because of redpillbluepillfozziesov meme.
SpaceyX
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#383 - 2016-08-22 08:33:17 UTC
Do NOT remove the IGB.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#384 - 2016-08-25 10:40:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
Hmmmm

Trading tools such as Everuns have some very useful IGB features, among those:

1) show market details of an item in game from out of game application

2) expanding on the above: preparing lists of orders (e.g. all, outbid, finished, filtered in some custom way, etc.) which can be displayed in IGB tab and where such tab have button(s) to call market detail window with single click. This is eons more flexible and fast (not mentioning FPC) than mindless double clicking on wallet's orders.

How / do you plan to retain this kind of functionality ? :

- Will it be possible to do (1) [through CREST] ?
- Will it be possible to do (2) from FF/chrome/etc. (so prepared page's script will be doing CREST calls) ?

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Cismet
Silent Industry
Silent Company
#385 - 2016-08-25 10:46:10 UTC
Soltys wrote:
Hmmmm

Trading tools such as Everuns have some very useful IGB features, among those:

- show market details of an item in game from out of game application

- expanding on the above: preparing lists of orders (e.g. all, outbid, finished, filtered in some custom way, etc.) which can be displayed in IGB tab and where such tab have button(s) to call market detail window with single click. This is eons more flexible and fast (not mentioning FPC) than mindless double clicking on wallet's orders.

How / do you plan to retain this kind of functionality ?


They don't. The only response from devs has been either:

A: Alt-Tab - Inappropriate and inconvenient, I should be able to access the tools required for the game IN the game.
B: Overlays - Third party tech and so not necessarily compatible, has its own attendant risks and no guarantee of continuing support or TOC compliance by CCP and so completely useless as suggestions go.
C: Buy another monitor - Elitist and insulting.

I think that pretty much sums up CCP's insulting responses to the points raised by a large proportion of people who pay their wages.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#386 - 2016-08-25 11:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
Cismet wrote:

They don't. The only response from devs has been either:

A: Alt-Tab - Inappropriate and inconvenient, I should be able to access the tools required for the game IN the game.


Well dunno about that. Immersion one thing, but this game is unplayable without 3rd party stuff and "fixed windowed" is basically prerequisite to do anything "seriously". Whether one has 1 monitor, 2 or giant vesa-stand setup of 9. Or at least that's how it's for me.

Personally I don't mind IGB removal that much (and I realize it's a PITA to use it as a dev - and TBH It's pita for players as well due to obvious performance issues) as long as I can do the same stuff I'm doing now with "always on top" external browser after IGB is cut out.

BUT what worries me is:

"do the same stuff I'm doing now" part

Looking at past few years of EvE "improvements" which mostly regressed the game in many subtle ways (e.g. ******* forced in-game window snapping, minimize all windows to horizontal title lines removed, etc.) and not so subtle (e.g. camera, forced monochromatic looking-alike icons). To remain honest - all of this fixable, but near all feedback has so far gone to /dev/null.

On a related note, it would be nice if they spent time developing 2 edit boxes to type the damn resolution directly in.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
#387 - 2016-08-25 18:44:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Drazz Caylen
A suggestion wrapped in questions;

When I click a link I'm asked if I want to open this in my out of game browser. When prompted yes, I'm being forwarded to a new tab in my browser or the browser itself opens from the system. So technically, eve online accesses something outside of it which quite accurately pinpoints the browser (probably by the magic of default browser system settings).

Why does this need to happen outside of the game? Can't you create a window in the game which does nothing but mirror or launch it's own instance of the system browser?
That way it depends on the user which kind of content s/he can see or can not see due to what is compatible with it and what not, depending on which browser is mirrored / instanced and which version it has. Eve third party developers can decide how far they want to go in downwards compatibility as if designing for a regular web browser. I'd even go as far as to prompt a selection as to which browser installed should be used inside eve, at the player discretion, so we can freely throw out stuff or block that we don't want to have it as lightweight (or not) as we want.

I'm pretty sure something like that is absolutely possible, code-wise. The question now is, how much effort would it take? Was it up for debate? Why was it ditched? Any estimate in terms of manpower? Any takers?

I'm still all for an image-viewer implemented into the game (proper ingame crest servicing probably in the third decade).
I mean, let's be real here; they're streaming the Flight academy videos through the web into the client for viewing. These videos are not on your computer. So they have some form of video playback system already inside the client. How hard can it be from there to display web images?
If I was to make an educated guess, they're streaming straight from youtube, but I can't confirm that.

PS: I have played, and still play, eve online with one monitor and without third party applications and am not missing out on any of my personal fun.
Firnas
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#388 - 2016-08-31 15:48:39 UTC
CCP is in trouble. This sounds like company streamlining to reduce costs. Seen alongside the new free to play accounts, I worry for my EVE.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#389 - 2016-08-31 20:16:17 UTC
Firnas wrote:
CCP is in trouble. This sounds like company streamlining to reduce costs. Seen alongside the new free to play accounts, I worry for my EVE.



Developers have been talking about getting rid of the IGB for _years_.

They've just not been in a position to do so.

(considering how little work has been put into the IGB for the last few years, this is hardly cost cutting)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

ugh zug
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#390 - 2016-08-31 22:45:24 UTC
by by pap links

Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.

Speared
Let's annoy'em
#391 - 2016-09-01 19:10:27 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Firnas wrote:
CCP is in trouble. This sounds like company streamlining to reduce costs. Seen alongside the new free to play accounts, I worry for my EVE.



Developers have been talking about getting rid of the IGB for _years_.

They've just not been in a position to do so.

(considering how little work has been put into the IGB for the last few years, this is hardly cost cutting)


Developers this, Developers that. Why do I get a feeling you're just a CCP member and not a representative of the Players?

Removal of the IGB is starting to make sense to me now as CCP wants to make EVE Free to Play.
I would not be surprised if removal of the chat and mailing systems as we know it were scheduled for removal next.
I guess lots of inappropriate links and information will be posted.

My and other Players questions remain unanswered though:
What is CCP going to do about all the lost functionality that the In-game Browser has offered for years?

(And no, using overlays, smart-devices or buying another screen is not an answer to that.)
Qutain Malakovic
Nisroc Angels
#392 - 2016-09-03 22:28:47 UTC
Out of all of the forums that I have been reading lately, which have been quite a few since I am an industrialist and the new changes they are implementing are harming how we play EVE gravely, I would like to say thank you to CCP FoxFour. You are the only DEV who has actually read the posts after stating what is going to happen and have replied to the community .
While I disagree with the removal of the In Game Browser (which I use a great deal), I do appreciate that you take your position seriously and actually communicate with us, the players. I wish the other CCP developers took their jobs as seriously and made the attempt to listen and talk with us rather than at us.
Once again, Thank You.
Cismet
Silent Industry
Silent Company
#393 - 2016-09-03 22:38:46 UTC
Qutain Malakovic wrote:
Out of all of the forums that I have been reading lately, which have been quite a few since I am an industrialist and the new changes they are implementing are harming how we play EVE gravely, I would like to say thank you to CCP FoxFour. You are the only DEV who has actually read the posts after stating what is going to happen and have replied to the community .
While I disagree with the removal of the In Game Browser (which I use a great deal), I do appreciate that you take your position seriously and actually communicate with us, the players. I wish the other CCP developers took their jobs as seriously and made the attempt to listen and talk with us rather than at us.
Once again, Thank You.


You know Foxfour doesn't work for CCP any more right?
Qutain Malakovic
Nisroc Angels
#394 - 2016-09-05 13:32:08 UTC
Cismet wrote:
Qutain Malakovic wrote:
Out of all of the forums that I have been reading lately, which have been quite a few since I am an industrialist and the new changes they are implementing are harming how we play EVE gravely, I would like to say thank you to CCP FoxFour. You are the only DEV who has actually read the posts after stating what is going to happen and have replied to the community .
While I disagree with the removal of the In Game Browser (which I use a great deal), I do appreciate that you take your position seriously and actually communicate with us, the players. I wish the other CCP developers took their jobs as seriously and made the attempt to listen and talk with us rather than at us.
Once again, Thank You.


You know Foxfour doesn't work for CCP any more right?


I didn't when I posted, but if it shames the rest of the Devs to step up and start interacting with the players and responding to their concerns then alls the better.
It can't hurt to try.
Firnas
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#395 - 2016-09-07 15:10:42 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Firnas wrote:
CCP is in trouble. This sounds like company streamlining to reduce costs. Seen alongside the new free to play accounts, I worry for my EVE.



Developers have been talking about getting rid of the IGB for _years_.

They've just not been in a position to do so.

(considering how little work has been put into the IGB for the last few years, this is hardly cost cutting)


Nice spin, pumpkin, but their own reason given for doing this was resource cost.

By any chance were you one of the CSMs that helped cost me my watchlist? I just want to know what level of disgust I should level at you, general disgust for your clear spinning here or more specific disgust for being a terrible rep overall.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#396 - 2016-09-08 08:14:08 UTC
Watchlist was horrible and I'm glad it's gone. Intel that requires no effort or risk is not conducive to the nature of this game
Cicirus
Debug the CODE
#397 - 2016-10-05 01:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Cicirus
Until someone can tell me how they are able to gather all manner of game related info in real-time & IN-GAME, then removing the IGB is incredibly short-sighted and a horrible idea EvilEvilEvil. The folks at CCP have discussed pushing key functions to CREST so 3rd party devs a chance to migrate but you neglect one huge glaring issue. Unless I'm mistaken, overlay apps actually run outside of the Eve client so the IGB is the only way any 3rd party app (web-based) can run in-game - am I missing something??? ShockedShockedShocked

This is a huge deal for many players including myself. The only other way to gather such info during gameplay is:

  • Keep EVE running in a windowed environment - i.e. NOT full screen.
  • Have a multi-screen setup.
  • Jump out from the game to your desktop and then back again.
  • Possibly a new set of apps with a new set of overlays - this would be per OS type and therefore totally kills x-platform.

None of these "options" is really an option at all - they all serve to diminish the gaming experience and make playing it unnecessarily more difficult. It's more than awesome (in fact imperative) to have Eve be a difficult & challenging game to play and impossible to master. But the difficulty\challenge should only relate to game-play - not having to juggle application windows and desktops. As for new apps using something like an in-game overlay - is it really even possible or realistic to think all the devs are going to migrate all their hard work to a new set of per-platform apps using a new API? The only other alternative I see would be to start allowing 3rd-party apps to somehow run natively within the Eve client which I gotta think would be an outright disaster (security, stability, etc.).

I'm not sure whether or not CCP is doing this due to resource constraints but what I am pretty sure of is that CCP has failed to fully understand how ALL players - not just the hard-core alliance\corp types - play the game. I also believe any IGB usage stats being tracked by CCP (assuming they do this) are possibly skewed to the negative thereby implying the IGB is not a good idea. However, I think this is an erroneous conclusion to draw because the issue isn't having an IGB - the issue is that the IGB in it's current state is too anemic. Therefore, the better response is to double-down and ENHANCE the IGB - not kill it. Make it run more like Chrome or FF - then I bet it would get used by a whole lot more players AND make the game better for those of us who don't have multi-screen rigs but still wanna maximize our Eve playing experience. And the beauty of Eve should never be diminished by running on anything except full-screen...nunca nunca nunca...

Again, I could be missing something and if so, then I will surely eat a large plate of crow. But absent evidence illustrating how things like market data analysis, efficient system mapping\analysis, detailed killmail analysis, etc. are done real-time and in game, then kicking the IGB to the curb is a bad move...

The floor is yours...
Nuclearbomb
G-Wave Tech
#398 - 2016-10-11 02:08:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Nuclearbomb
Cicirus wrote:
Until someone can tell me how they are able to gather all manner of game related info in real-time & IN-GAME, then removing the IGB is incredibly short-sighted and a horrible idea EvilEvilEvil. The folks at CCP have discussed pushing key functions to CREST so 3rd party devs a chance to migrate but you neglect one huge glaring issue. Unless I'm mistaken, overlay apps actually run outside of the Eve client so the IGB is the only way any 3rd party app (web-based) can run in-game - am I missing something??? ShockedShockedShocked

This is a huge deal for many players including myself. The only other way to gather such info during gameplay is:

  • Keep EVE running in a windowed environment - i.e. NOT full screen.
  • Have a multi-screen setup.
  • Jump out from the game to your desktop and then back again.
  • Possibly a new set of apps with a new set of overlays - this would be per OS type and therefore totally kills x-platform.

None of these "options" is really an option at all - they all serve to diminish the gaming experience and make playing it unnecessarily more difficult. It's more than awesome (in fact imperative) to have Eve be a difficult & challenging game to play and impossible to master. But the difficulty\challenge should only relate to game-play - not having to juggle application windows and desktops. As for new apps using something like an in-game overlay - is it really even possible or realistic to think all the devs are going to migrate all their hard work to a new set of per-platform apps using a new API? The only other alternative I see would be to start allowing 3rd-party apps to somehow run natively within the Eve client which I gotta think would be an outright disaster (security, stability, etc.).

I'm not sure whether or not CCP is doing this due to resource constraints but what I am pretty sure of is that CCP has failed to fully understand how ALL players - not just the hard-core alliance\corp types - play the game. I also believe any IGB usage stats being tracked by CCP (assuming they do this) are possibly skewed to the negative thereby implying the IGB is not a good idea. However, I think this is an erroneous conclusion to draw because the issue isn't having an IGB - the issue is that the IGB in it's current state is too anemic. Therefore, the better response is to double-down and ENHANCE the IGB - not kill it. Make it run more like Chrome or FF - then I bet it would get used by a whole lot more players AND make the game better for those of us who don't have multi-screen rigs but still wanna maximize our Eve playing experience. And the beauty of Eve should never be diminished by running on anything except full-screen...nunca nunca nunca...

Again, I could be missing something and if so, then I will surely eat a large plate of crow. But absent evidence illustrating how things like market data analysis, efficient system mapping\analysis, detailed killmail analysis, etc. are done real-time and in game, then kicking the IGB to the curb is a bad move...

The floor is yours...


I'm 100% with you on this. I personally use the IGB EVERY SINGLE TIME I play the game. The story for many other players is the same. It looks like most of the outrage has died down, which is very bad. CCP needs a huge backlash from this so that we have some chance of getting the IGB back.

I honestly think this warrants another Jita protest similar to the one back in 2011 over the microtransactions. It is abundantly clear that CCP refuses to listen to their player base even though the RESOUNDING MAJORITY of us are against this change. As said by Cismet, claiming that "development costs" are the reason for the removal of the IGB is total BS. Meanwhile they spend precious development time and money on features that NOBODY ASKED FOR such as the horrible new camera, terrible new probe scanner, captain's quarters (which nobody uses), and countless others. It's clear to me that at this point CCP cares more about form than function.

Here are Cismets posts on the matter if you want to read them, which, by the way, almost all of his posts have over 45 likes. This speaks volumes about how many people despise this needless change. http://eve-search.com/thread/485366-1/author/Cismet
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#399 - 2016-10-11 18:30:12 UTC
Thank God my corp left WH space before this change , the manner in witch i scan , and i think any citizen in WH scans like hell , i would have a stroke changing from one moniter to the next .

Furthermore i usually scan while watching videos so i would do more clicks per hour scanning , i know CCP stated that the IGB was going to the gutter but dam today i logged and spent like 10 minutes trying to find the IGB ;( .

Ares Splinter
Tritanium Industries and Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#400 - 2016-10-11 19:58:41 UTC
This is **** from CCP sry to say so we use this every single day for Corp link price check alot of other things

Remove this is a big mistake as useuel there is no what so ever commen sense when it come to usefull tools ingame..

i dump CCP for this


-10 standing to CCP for this

seem every time CCP come with a good exspand they take someting in return an hope we dont notes this..


BAD BAD BAD I SAY..