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Dev blog: Command Bursts and the New World of Fleet Boosting

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Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#801 - 2016-08-31 11:24:02 UTC
so the command processor I Modules are being replaced by Rigs Question

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#802 - 2016-08-31 11:48:03 UTC
Deep Space Cowboy wrote:
To all the non miners that keep arguging that sieging a rorqual in a belt will be fine this: https://zkillboard.com/character/92270154/ is what happens currently to pilots who choose to siege their rorqual in a belt while they mine. This pilot has lost FOURTEEN rorquals in the past 10 months (and has been inactive for 2) since he was able to fly them.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/54477377/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/53986096/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/53709338/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/53559334/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/52598055/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/52124294/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/51171154/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/49756154/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/50570650/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/50524666/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/49897155/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/49756154/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/49505233/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/49417270/


This is what CCP is asking miners to do with these changes. There's no risk vs reward only suicide.


All I see is someone who doesn't have enough support losing his capital ships to hot drops.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Memphis Baas
#803 - 2016-08-31 11:50:58 UTC
Why does everyone imagine Rorquals deployed with pure mining fleets, all frozen in panic?

If the panic button doesn't disable high slots, I'd put a combat fleet in the belt with the mining fleet. Let the combat fleet be frozen in place, invulnerable, but still fully able to apply its DPS to any attackers coming into the belt.

Hell, I'd include Rorquals with fleet-to-fleet battles. Invulnerability while still being able to shoot, should be lovely. Forget mining.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#804 - 2016-08-31 11:53:27 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Why does everyone imagine Rorquals deployed with pure mining fleets, all frozen in panic?

If the panic button doesn't disable high slots, I'd put a combat fleet in the belt with the mining fleet. Let the combat fleet be frozen in place, invulnerable, but still fully able to apply its DPS to any attackers coming into the belt.

Hell, I'd include Rorquals with fleet-to-fleet battles. Invulnerability while still being able to shoot, should be lovely. Forget mining.


It only affects industrial ships.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
#805 - 2016-08-31 12:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Drazz Caylen
FT Diomedes wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Hell, I'd include Rorquals with fleet-to-fleet battles. Invulnerability while still being able to shoot, should be lovely. Forget mining.
It only affects industrial ships.
What, you never saw industrial ships deployed with a combat fitting? You missed out.

To all the industrialists posting here with their apocalyptic views, the message came in clear, you are concerned. Like we all are.
The answer is, wait for devblog 2 before you lose your minds now.

But to anyone deliberately painting situations in the worst possible light while disregarding other, completely viable gameplay options and outcomes (of which some are currently deployed and likely will continue) I ask to rethink and remain objective about your claims and reasonable about your opinions.

I will not ask you to "Man up and adapt", I will not ask you to "cry some more or biomass" and I will not ask you for your stuff.
All I ask is to see beyond your nose and consider new possibilities for your future gameplay, once the other devblog arrived.

Look at the last pages, where supposed killmail digging and narrow mindsets are annihilated by articulated and well formed counter points.
Don't come with the sandbox argument. Sometimes you have to step out of your sandbox, clean yourself, clean the toys then see what you're dealing with again before stepping back in. Maybe you see an area more suitable for your needs. Only because it seems you're put out of your comfort zone doesn't mean everything will be bad. Who knows, you might have even more fun afterwards?

Wait for the second devblog before you rampage. I bet the changes aren't even on sisi yet.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#806 - 2016-08-31 12:04:26 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
So, skill bonuses completely removed?


Yes. All passive fleet boosts are being removed including the ones from the skills. The skills will now be 100% dedicated to improving your Command Bursts.


This right here is sufficient justification to refund leadership SP. I would probably put it back into my characters, but you are removing a ton of flexibility from these skills.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

X Mayce
South Sun Industries
Brave Collective
#807 - 2016-08-31 12:17:28 UTC  |  Edited by: X Mayce
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#808 - 2016-08-31 12:39:34 UTC
So command burst work on the bursting ship even when no other ships are around?

Hmm, solo ratting brick tanked Tengus and Nighthawks incoming! Bonus, you boost anyone who comes to save you from a roaming gang.
GsyBoy
Doomheim
#809 - 2016-08-31 12:45:29 UTC
Lots of text here, only have one question and one suggestion, if someone could assist.

As currently mainly a solo pilot, how do I know when another toon is under the influence of bonuses? In local like a criminal or only when i see the ship and effects?

Would suggest bonuses removed when ship enters warp is my only comment.

Thanks.

https://www.twitch.tv/gsyboy
Lugh Crow-Slave
#810 - 2016-08-31 12:56:54 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Why does everyone imagine Rorquals deployed with pure mining fleets, all frozen in panic?

If the panic button doesn't disable high slots, I'd put a combat fleet in the belt with the mining fleet. Let the combat fleet be frozen in place, invulnerable, but still fully able to apply its DPS to any attackers coming into the belt.

Hell, I'd include Rorquals with fleet-to-fleet battles. Invulnerability while still being able to shoot, should be lovely. Forget mining.


they have stated the only thing a ship can do when invul is mine

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lonan O'Labhradha
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#811 - 2016-08-31 12:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lonan O'Labhradha
Drago Misharie wrote:
Lonan O'Labhradha wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
...
If you pounce on a mining fleet, what's the first thing you are going to do?

Especially knowing that everyone you let go will potentially re-ship into combat ships?

Prevent everyone from warping away.


If they're not AFK miners (which is a big if, mind you) the ships will be gone before you get there. Capital ships in the belt will usually have all entrances to the constellation monitored and be at least 2-3 jumps in. Of course, you can catch the stupid ones, but you already can catch those and always will be able to...

2-3 jumps? Ever heard of cepter fleets? You have 10-15 secs before tackled


Mining ships don't take 10 seconds to warp... 10 seconds is MWD "Warp Folding" time. Like I said, they have to be on the ball, but they'll be aligning as soon as their perimeter scouts see your fleet. They can keep mining and be aligned for quite a while, too, so they probably won't click "Warp" until you spike local.

You can also mitigate the "paying attention" part by setting up your Fleet Warp hierarchy so that the people who are paying the most attention are in Squad/Wing/Fleet commander positions and can "Oh ****!" the fleet back to the safe POS. You can even rotate "paying attention" shifts so that everyone gets a chance to slack off.

Also, I will point out that I think it's stupid to drop a Rorqual in a warpable anomaly or fixed belt. The only place I would put one would be in a scannable anomaly or Deadspace mining complex.
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#812 - 2016-08-31 13:49:31 UTC
Honestly this is pretty harsh for those who invested in fleet boosting for its passive effects. I have no intention of joining a large corp or having any major interaction with one, I however do maintain a large number of alts for hi sec mining which were assisted by a dedicated alt providing passive on grid boosts. I don't ever use crystals as I'm dedicated ice mining. Now it appears that to do the same thing that I have always done (and with a decent number of miners one cannot mine efficiently via AFK, one must pay attention to be effective), I have to spend money for ammo, click more and move more without any improvement in gameplay. I'm supposed to think that this is OK? An improvement? A bonus to gameplay? You just made it harder and more costly for me to play my chosen method of gameplay and have offered me no alternatives (refund SP, give time, refund implants, refund rigs, refund ships). Do you really want new(er) players at all that are not blob PVP oriented?

I'm not sure why combat boost issues are impacting non-combat boosts. Passive boosts are just that, passive. Choosing to eliminate all passive boosts is probably not the way to go. Micromanaging active boosters adds nothing to gameplay, particularly for miners. Adding additional complexity <> improved gameplay but is = to adding barriers to entry. I can somewhat see making combat boosters an ammo field (but then you have to remove the capacitor effects to be fair and then this changes LOTS of ships since now boosters would no longer drain cap).

Nearing 3 years into eve with 7 PAID accounts since I don't play that much and have no interest in PVP at all. I'll wait and see how this rolls out but from my initial look this is a fairly huge negative to hi sec miners that have utterly no interest in other portions of space. This may be a good time to examine other games to consume my cash...
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#813 - 2016-08-31 13:54:10 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
What's funny to me is that the Rorqual will still offer better mining boosts than any other ship, even without being in Industrial Core mode. Despite that, people who had to know their "hide in the POS shield" playstyle was on life support for several years are completely freaking out.

It is interesting to see that people will actually have to fly the Rorqual now. They'll have to push buttons more than once and stuff. The Horror! The Horror! The real impact of this is not that the Rorqual will actually be at risk now, but that it will actually require regular player input, making it harder to multibox the ship.

I know I have trained up a Rorqual booster, three Exhumer pilots, and a hauler/scout pilot. In the past, I could easily forget about the Rorqual pilot in his POS, and focus on watching three Exhumers, the hauler or scout, and intel channels. Now I have to pay more attention to another pilot.

As someone who has always relied on multiple characters, I'm noticing the subtle shift CCP has in place to make each pilot matter more and require more player input. I don't have a problem with it, but I am noticing it. It's most evident in the recent Carrier changes. In the past, I could undock three Carriers, drop sentries, assign drones, and establish remote repair chains with ease. Now, that it is all but impossible to multibox Carriers with any degree of efficiency. But flying a single Carrier is a much more fun and engaging play style. I did decide to sell off a few of my Carriers because of these changes, but on the whole it's a good change. As this design philosophy sneaks into more game play aspects, it may eventually cause me to unsubscribe a couple more accounts, but I think in the long run it will make Eve a better, more engaging game.


It certainly would be nice to lay it out in a nice graphic for the hard of thought.
Boost level : Porpoise < Orca < Rorqual (no core) < Rorqual (core)

Each carries a bigger risk and bigger reward. I agree, those rewards should be distinctly balanced for the additional risk. Dropping an industrial core should be 100% worth doing and not just a small marginal increase (again, seeing the numbers charted out would help a lot of people).

All this hand-wringing that this is killing mining is nothing more than pain at losing income and efficiency. *Nothing* about these changes fundamentally changes how mining works, how you enjoy it, or anything of that nature. It changes your profitability plain and simple. Base mining should be worth something. But people willing to climb up the risk ladder should be the ones getting the reward, not that the base is the highest reward level because anyone can stick a Rorqual in a POS and boost to the max without risk.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#814 - 2016-08-31 13:54:59 UTC
Zorn Cosby wrote:
Honestly this is pretty harsh for those who invested in fleet boosting for its passive effects. I have no intention of joining a large corp or having any major interaction with one, I however do maintain a large number of alts for hi sec mining which were assisted by a dedicated alt providing passive on grid boosts. I don't ever use crystals as I'm dedicated ice mining. Now it appears that to do the same thing that I have always done (and with a decent number of miners one cannot mine efficiently via AFK, one must pay attention to be effective), I have to spend money for ammo, click more and move more without any improvement in gameplay. I'm supposed to think that this is OK? An improvement? A bonus to gameplay? You just made it harder and more costly for me to play my chosen method of gameplay and have offered me no alternatives (refund SP, give time, refund implants, refund rigs, refund ships). Do you really want new(er) players at all that are not blob PVP oriented?

I'm not sure why combat boost issues are impacting non-combat boosts. Passive boosts are just that, passive. Choosing to eliminate all passive boosts is probably not the way to go. Micromanaging active boosters adds nothing to gameplay, particularly for miners. Adding additional complexity <> improved gameplay but is = to adding barriers to entry. I can somewhat see making combat boosters an ammo field (but then you have to remove the capacitor effects to be fair and then this changes LOTS of ships since now boosters would no longer drain cap).

Nearing 3 years into eve with 7 PAID accounts since I don't play that much and have no interest in PVP at all. I'll wait and see how this rolls out but from my initial look this is a fairly huge negative to hi sec miners that have utterly no interest in other portions of space. This may be a good time to examine other games to consume my cash...




SURPRISE!!

you are playing an MMO so it will be balanced on the side of ppl working together rather than solo

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#815 - 2016-08-31 13:58:27 UTC
GsyBoy wrote:
Lots of text here, only have one question and one suggestion, if someone could assist.

As currently mainly a solo pilot, how do I know when another toon is under the influence of bonuses? In local like a criminal or only when i see the ship and effects?

Would suggest bonuses removed when ship enters warp is my only comment.

Thanks.



with the revamp there will be visuals showing that ship is affected by command boosts - there is a vid in a blog showing them

here grab a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py-LZv_tGjs
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#816 - 2016-08-31 14:00:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Zorn Cosby
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


SURPRISE!!

you are playing an MMO so it will be balanced on the side of ppl working together rather than solo



So please explain why mining needs to have active boosts to improve mining gameplay. It does not improve gameplay, it negatively impacts gameplay.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#817 - 2016-08-31 14:01:20 UTC
Zorn Cosby wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


SURPRISE!!

you are playing an MMO so it will be balanced on the side of ppl working together rather than solo



So please explain why mining needs to have active boosts to improve mining gameplay?


because working together should be rewarding. boosts are just one way to do that

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#818 - 2016-08-31 14:43:17 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


because working together should be rewarding. boosts are just one way to do that


So now you are defending a major change in the game to materially negatively impact mining as a form of gameplay to encourage more blobing and less solo. So you and CCP are advocating making it harder and less effective to play for smaller mining groups or individuals because you want to change playstyles of existing paying players.

As an existing paying player, I will just choose to either not play or play a lot less vs changing playstyles. Changing playstyles is a big deal, it is not like real life where there is no choice when things like tax or law changes happen, with that you have to adapt. In a game there are always other choices and the choice of not playing (and therefore not paying) is not one that CCP should encourage...

I fail to see how hi sec mining will have any improved gameplay from this change. It will only have negative impacts. CCP is choosing to negatively impact hi sec mining in particular for zero positives for such players. If I am a small representative of such players, this carries no benefits and no ability to recover from relatively massive investments in time, SP, and ISK. And to continue to use said investments, such players will have to spend more money, click more, and this is <> better but = worse for players.
Warlord Balrog
303rd X-SOLDIER
#819 - 2016-08-31 14:51:49 UTC
I have to say not having to play musical boosters will be a great treat! Let's hope BIAB doesn't object to this great upcoming change!Big smile Now onto my Q&A portion of this post:

- During combat, when the fleet's collective remaining HP drops below 25% will you be able to swap charges from say... Shield Extension & Harmonizing to Armor Reinforcement & Energizing like you can with ammo and other charges or will it follow the "Run what you brung" mantra you've adopted? This module to charge change is slightly confusing aspect if you cannot change during combat timer.

- Likewise bursts cannot be stacked, will this include say a Leadership + Information specialist at 5 having Superiority & Hardening but NOT the Optimization prevent a Leadership 5/Information specialist 3 WITH said Optimization from boosting the fleet?
-- If so, will there be a 'flag' (such as free-move or the command positions) preventing such abuse?
-- If not, how will BIAB choose?

- The implants will be changed from a certain bonus to AoE radius, will CCP be reimbursing the focused implants?

- What will the result be of Player A bringing all 3 Shield bursts, Player B bringing all Armor bursts, etc etc for the fleet? Besides an over-shiny fleet?

- Will exploits such as boost-swap-boost (Wait till cycle hits, swap ship, "Oh look! five new boosts!")be prevented?

- Last but not important, will fighter squadrons/drones and other space-oriented goodies be affected by the burster? I only ask because even though you won't affect a tethered ship, the citadels have shield, armor, resistances as do drones and fighters.

Thanks for listening, and don't forget to tip your waitresses and busboys.
Warlord Balrog
303rd X-SOLDIER
#820 - 2016-08-31 14:53:04 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Zorn Cosby wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


SURPRISE!!

you are playing an MMO so it will be balanced on the side of ppl working together rather than solo



So please explain why mining needs to have active boosts to improve mining gameplay?


because working together should be rewarding. boosts are just one way to do that


Because if we can't hide our Nyx inside a POS shield why should a Rorqual be able to?