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Dev blog: Command Bursts and the New World of Fleet Boosting

First post First post
Author
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#141 - 2016-08-29 17:42:58 UTC
Alhira Katserna wrote:
Annia Aurel wrote:
Will you refund all SP currently allocated in Leadership skills?
Those you still want them are free to reallocate them ...


Good question. I hope they get refunded as they´re useless now for at least 90% of the people who trained them just to support their fleet.

They are still useful and are still used for supporting your fleet. So why would there be any refund?

Plus all the begging for an SP refund is a moot point as you can just extract and sell the skills.
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#142 - 2016-08-29 17:44:08 UTC
I'm surprised that nobody asked this, yet:

Will the Industrial Core still make the Rorqual immobile while running?

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

Desiderya
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#143 - 2016-08-29 17:44:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Desiderya
Finally \o/

Some feedback on the devblog.

- Removing the bonuses you get from skills does not feel well. By all means, effective boosting and unlocking some effects should only be viable through using the proper setups but there are many situations where you can't fit a traditional boosting ship in but still want to provide some bonus to a fleet (or rather, gang) with the SP investment you have done. I assume this has been sacrificed to make the new boosting system mechanically possible.

- I was hoping to see these modules being available (unbonused) for all ships as the selection of destroyer, battlecruiser and capitals doesn't cover all types of gangs.

- The visual effects still look very, very similar. Also it would be nicer if you could also spot which type of ammunition is running.


- Suspect timer: The same rules that are in effect for neutral logistics should apply. If not you have someone sitting on a war target fleet in HS providing a lot of assistance and you can do little about it.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#144 - 2016-08-29 17:45:14 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Team Five 0 wrote:
However, Command Burst bonuses do stack on top of bonuses from other sources (such as modules and implants) and this interaction may be subject to diminishing returns (stacking penalties) depending on the attribute being affected.

The only thing that gives me pause is the stacking penalty.

Example: Seems odd that it may benefit a mining ship to NOT fit a MLU.

Maybe it'll finally get some career miners to fit a tank instead of going for pure yield, then whining about how they have it so hard compared to others when every other activity in the game has to decide on their own personal balance between tank and gank.
Baltrom
The Congregation
420 MLG TWINTURBO 3000 EMPIRE ALLIANCE RELOADED
#145 - 2016-08-29 17:46:02 UTC
im probably going to catch a fair amount of flak for this but id like to be the voice of the probably unpopular opinion that theses changes are not thought through.
(also please excuse my possibly bad enlgish)

at the moment , there is nothing wrong with links , everyone in the game can use them equally . if you have the isk to plex an alt or the rl money , for links , anyone can do it and use them equally .

right , now theres people saying , oh wow , why do i need to have an alt to be on par with the bois that have link alts ? thats unfair.

well . you need alts for everything in this game , the newest launcher is even designed to make launching alts easier . you cant really mine without having an army of mining alts (if you want to be on par with the people that have mining alts), you cant use supers effectively unless you have alts sitting in them , some lowsec alliances only recruit people with capital alts , people camp gates with re sebo alts etc etc ... the entire alt argument is ******** in a game like eve .
so, you want to have links ? get someone with a links alt . not really a big deal in my opinion.

2nd , i obviously have no clue how the new links ships are gonna be flown on a combat grid . but to me it seems as if the new mechanic gives even more power to the blob. eve is a game of n+1 , if you have more people , you are stronger . now forcing links on grid means that 2 equally skilled fleets , both having their links on grid and, depending on how the ships are gonna be flown , also in dps range of each other . now one of the fleets is actually a bit bigger , which is already an advantage , but to me it seems that the bigger fleet will not only have an easier time keeping their links alive , but also killing the enemy links ship which is going to put them at an even bigger disadvantage as they already are .

i might be wrong with everything i am saying , maybe i dont see the big picture .
i also didnt read every single comment and dont know if my concerns have already been voiced by someone else.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2016-08-29 17:46:08 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Finally, finally! This will be a very good change for the health of the game. Although I think some details need to be tweaked.

- The boost duration of 60-130s is too long IMO, would like to see it more in the 30-60s range.

- Will neutral boosters receive a suspect flag if interfering with wars and limited engagements in highsec (same as logis)?


The problem w reducing the time to that sort of level would be that it would mean the total elimination of frigates getting any kind of boost in places like novice FW plexes. At least w a 2 minute timer a frig pilot can get his boost then warp into the plex and have a limited amount of time boosted. With a 30 second time the boost would be gone before you even managed to land in the plex. Ofc a t1 boost frig would solve this but that's starting a slide down a particularly slippery slope. Are we gonna start creating new ships from scratch every time a gameplay mechanic changes? It would also mean you can forget about any kind of kite meta because unless your boost ship is attached to your hip and able to keep up with you, your bonuses are gonna drop before you have a chance to get back into boost range.

Thanks for the reply. Exactly this case I had in mind when proposing this change. It shall be unfeasible to use boosted ships in novice plexes. P

I'm my own NPC alt.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#147 - 2016-08-29 17:46:25 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:
I'm surprised that nobody asked this, yet:

Will the Industrial Core still make the Rorqual immobile while running?

We won't know until November.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#148 - 2016-08-29 17:46:31 UTC
Can we get "maximum bonus" from the charts defined? If I'm looking at this correctly, most links got nerfed but new ones added so i don't know what is what.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
The Watchmen.
#149 - 2016-08-29 17:48:32 UTC
Look guys-

The intent seems to be to force mining to be a more interactive thing. I mean, CCP heard the miners and is giving them a bump limit. Now, it looks like they've heard CODE and others that advocate making mining more active and not AFK ISK farming.

These changes will happen all the time. I really don't have an issue with the idea as long as CCP also hears that the mining ships and such need their ships to be able to defend themselves. Flying a cheap disposable destroyer up, vaporizing a mining ship then losing it in some kind of cosmic suicide pact is not realistic at all. Miners should be able to fight as well and the rats should be almost as brutal as the players.

Mining SHOULD be a badge of honor, not derision. Miners should embrace these changes and the boosters for miners should actually charge for the service, a percent of the take, etc. But ORCA's, Rorq's etc. should be able to fend off 1-2 groups of sub caps all day long. Drop in a fleet of a half dozen or more ships, then it should be a reasonable fight.

Making mining active should make the game more fun, not less. Give it a chance and see what happens. If it is completely unworkable then it likely won't live long. However, what I think you'll find is that you'll have to figure out all the wrinkles and costs, but eventually it will re-balance out and need only some tweaking to make it work right.

There has to be balance in all things guys. We just need to make sure that CCP follows through and give the miners the ability to defend themselves so the current gank mechanics can be understood for being as bad as off grid boosts.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#150 - 2016-08-29 17:49:01 UTC
two questions:

will the command burst buff apply to the buffing ship too?
in other words: will the magus get a free "lets tank a bit better" button?

will the buff apply to cloaked ships in fleet?
will be relevant if you want to use something like a rapier as surprise.


comments so far:
- the main thing i dislike is that the buff does not go away if the command ship dies, IMO it should since it would make target calling more interesting.

- you should not be able to cloak the links right after the buff.

- i would like to see shorter cycle times, unless you are fine with linked garmurs in novice plexes
tbh i would like to see you losing links entirely if you leave grid

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#151 - 2016-08-29 17:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Moac Tor wrote:
Alhira Katserna wrote:
Annia Aurel wrote:
Will you refund all SP currently allocated in Leadership skills?
Those you still want them are free to reallocate them ...


Good question. I hope they get refunded as they´re useless now for at least 90% of the people who trained them just to support their fleet.

They are still useful and are still used for supporting your fleet. So why would there be any refund?

Plus all the begging for an SP refund is a moot point as you can just extract and sell the skills.


a. Because previously they provided a bonus for any and every FC running a fleet. Now they aren't gonna do jack unless FC wants to hop in a boost ship and put a target on his forehead in every engagement.

b. Saying we can "extract them" is just accepting the fact that its just a way for CCP to squeeze more money out of ppl by giving them a reason to buy extractors just to get use out of the SP that they already spent monthly fee's on in order to train. It's like selling someone a car then telling them gas isn't gonna be sold for that car anymore and it can only be driven on specific roads unless they buy a new special upgrade. It's essentially bait and switch.

Daemun of Khanid

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#152 - 2016-08-29 17:49:50 UTC
Rowells wrote:
IM SO HARD RIGHT NOW BUT ALSO PICKY ON THE DETAILS A BIT. FC I NEED A TOWEL: STAT.

Quote:
T1 Industrial Core (while active)

+25% bonus to Mining Foreman Burst strength

+50% bonus to Mining Foreman and Shield Command Burst Area of Effect Range

T2 Industrial Core (while active)

+30% bonus to Mining Foreman Burst strength

+100% bonus to Mining Foreman and Shield Command Burst Area of Effect Range


AAAASSAGGHGGHGGHGGGGG DAMNIT WHY CCP WHY

I was also hoping to do away with the requirement to siege to get the bonus. Theoretically though with the numbers given it is still worth using a Rorqual for boosting even without siege active which would make both playstyles viable. So risk / reward. I think this is a nice balance.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#153 - 2016-08-29 17:50:54 UTC
Nice change over all.

I am missing some information about how this will interact with crimewatch. Will it be possible to boost people with a limited engagement timer or criminal timer without going suspect or getting CONCORDED as well?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#154 - 2016-08-29 17:52:06 UTC
Something else that just occurred to me: Squads should be removed. You don't need them anymore after these changes and their removal would reduce a lot of clutter in the fleet. Instead of 5 Wings with 5 Squads each, you can just have the 5 wings with all people in it. That's enough room to organize a fleet and all the problems with missing squads, overcrowded squads or finding out in which squad you are while the entire list jumps around erratically due to newly joining members would be gone.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#155 - 2016-08-29 17:52:24 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Finally, finally! This will be a very good change for the health of the game. Although I think some details need to be tweaked.

- The boost duration of 60-130s is too long IMO, would like to see it more in the 30-60s range.

- Will neutral boosters receive a suspect flag if interfering with wars and limited engagements in highsec (same as logis)?


The problem w reducing the time to that sort of level would be that it would mean the total elimination of frigates getting any kind of boost in places like novice FW plexes. At least w a 2 minute timer a frig pilot can get his boost then warp into the plex and have a limited amount of time boosted. With a 30 second time the boost would be gone before you even managed to land in the plex. Ofc a t1 boost frig would solve this but that's starting a slide down a particularly slippery slope. Are we gonna start creating new ships from scratch every time a gameplay mechanic changes? It would also mean you can forget about any kind of kite meta because unless your boost ship is attached to your hip and able to keep up with you, your bonuses are gonna drop before you have a chance to get back into boost range.

Thanks for the reply. Exactly this case I had in mind when proposing this change. It shall be unfeasible to use boosted ships in novice plexes. P


So your next request is that only 2 ships be allowed in a novice plex at a time... well that kinda defeats the whole point of FACTION WARFARE so I guess we're just gonna have to create "EVE BATTLEGROUNDS" the place where all risk adverse cry babies can go to get a fair fight. Special combat plexes w 2 ship limits and no boosts or implants allowed....Roll

Daemun of Khanid

Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#156 - 2016-08-29 17:53:36 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Something else that just occurred to me: Squads should be removed. You don't need them anymore after these changes and their removal would reduce a lot of clutter in the fleet. Instead of 5 Wings with 5 Squads each, you can just have the 5 wings with all people in it. That's enough room to organize a fleet and all the problems with missing squads, overcrowded squads or finding out in which squad you are while the entire list jumps around erratically due to newly joining members would be gone.


TBH it can still make sense for just warping e.g. logi or ewar
William Weatherwax
New Jovian Exploration Department
New Jovian Collective
#157 - 2016-08-29 17:54:07 UTC
Quote:
When a fleetmate is hit by the Command Burst, their ship will receive a timed bonus lasting between 60 and 130 seconds that continues to operate even if they move out of range, or if the boosting ship dies. The bonus persists through warps within a system, but does not persist through docking and undocking or through system changes. [...]

[...] Like existing warfare links, multiple copies of any given Command Burst bonus do not stack on top of each other. The Command Burst system will only apply the bonus from the strongest version of each Command Burst effect that is applied to any given ship.


Right now it is useless speculation but I wonder if the boost would persist when you drop fleet. Otherwise I would come with two boosters with separate fleets. Booster A fires, fleet changes to Booster B. Would that be still considered stacking?

Also, I wonder if you could overheat the module for some extra boost.
ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
Dead Terrorists
#158 - 2016-08-29 17:54:44 UTC
Awesome that links are finally getting changed to ongrid, and for the most part im quite positive about this change.
There is one issue i am worried about tho, and that is small/micro gangs of nano ships, that will be a heck of a lot more nerfed then other types of gangs.

A normal ahac, bs, or close range ship gang of any kind really will be able to stay close together the entire time, which will be great. Microgangs on the other hand depends a lot on individual pilots flying around, trying to spread out the hostiles. Having to do all this and having to go back and forth to the link ship because of the limited time of the buff will be a massive pain, and will mean that most of the gang will either be flying close to the link ship the entire time, or that the hostiles will swarm the link ship, making sure that the nano gang wont be able to get boosts.

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#159 - 2016-08-29 17:54:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Daemun Khanid wrote:
b. Saying we can "extract them" is just accepting the fact that its just a way for CCP to squeeze more money out of ppl buy giving them a reason to buy extractors just to get use out of the SP that they already spent monthly fee's on in order to train. It's like selling someone a car then telling them gas isn't gonna be sold for that car anymore and it can only be driven on specific roads unless they buy a new special upgrade. It's essentially bait and switch.

No, this is how skill changes have always been handled. If the skill is still useful in any capacity then you don't get a refund. If the skill is removed completely, only then you will get a refund.

When the Advanced Ship Construction skills where nerfed to 1% PE per level (so almost useless), no SP refund was given.

When mining barge was removed as a pre req for the Orca, no SP refund was given.

I don't see why this scenario should be made an exception. Plus back then there was no option of extracting the SP.
Elenahina
Embark
Triumvirate.
#160 - 2016-08-29 17:56:05 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Team Five 0 wrote:
However, Command Burst bonuses do stack on top of bonuses from other sources (such as modules and implants) and this interaction may be subject to diminishing returns (stacking penalties) depending on the attribute being affected.

The only thing that gives me pause is the stacking penalty.

Example: Seems odd that it may benefit a mining ship to NOT fit a MLU.


Wait, maybe they could fit tank instead and become harder to gank.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno