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This citadel thing doesn't look that great to me anymore

First post
Author
Knowledgeminer
Oriens Vis
#1 - 2016-08-29 07:53:33 UTC
I thought citadels were the best change introduced to the game since I started playing it, but not anymore.

I'm sure there is some fun in citadel owners fighting for market dominance and trying to destroy one another, but from the standpoint of a simple user of them, having to deal with market services suddently becoming unavailable every now and then because a citadel is destroyed or the owner simply can't or doesn't want to keep it running anymore is no fun at all, rather just another huge waste of time...

This game looks great, but the feeling that for anything I want to do I have to waste a lot of time dealing with issues and doing other things I really don't want to do is burning me out...
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#2 - 2016-08-29 07:56:07 UTC
Knowledgeminer
Oriens Vis
#3 - 2016-08-29 08:03:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Knowledgeminer
Nana Skalski wrote:
Use NPC markets like you have been using them for years. Problem solved.


LOL, except NPC broker fees aren't the same that they've been for years, precisely to promote the citadels. You don't think I wasn't aware of that "solution", do you?
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#4 - 2016-08-29 09:16:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolai Serkanner
Knowledgeminer wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Use NPC markets like you have been using them for years. Problem solved.


LOL, except NPC broker fees aren't the same that they've been for years, precisely to promote the citadels. You don't think I wasn't aware of that "solution", do you?


So, what you want is to eat your cake and have it too.
Serene Repose
#5 - 2016-08-29 09:18:48 UTC
Actually, problem not solved. Playing like the citadels are someone else's problem ... I'm not going to explain that one.

I set one up on Singularity months and months ago. Did all the training. Hauled it out, "anchored it", took command, and sat there wondering what the point in this might be. Sure, put in a market function and try to beat the Jita/Dodixie/Rens/Amarr combine by fiddling with fees and sech like...on what in terms of items? Move the entire contents of one market into yours, then charge less?

I had a hard time imagining how this was playing EVE. It has all the earmarks of a data entry job. Then it occurred to me. There was always a problem with getting goods out to null sec. With abysmal security standing, access to fair markets with a wide range of products at a competitive price is problematic insofar as being shot at by NPCs. Trying to imagine what your corpies might need and making shopping trips with freighters is indeed a tedious chore. However, distribution of said goods then becomes a major problem.

The citadel with market function, place to park clones, at least (very least) seems like a good remedy. However, only in conjunction with a well-established POS and the attendant array. You could fill several freighters with a wide variety of goods, put them up for sale to your own folks at cost. The market panel would then serve for the distribution interface. Voila! Not bad. Sure, they're a bit flimsy, but relatively cheap and easy to replace if some misfortune should befall them. Under the POS system, they wouldn't count as turning sovereignty, so any losses would be supply intervention, or collateral damage - cost of doing business.

But, the rumblings are that the POS system is being Fozzied out. (Put all your eggs in one "head"...nice move.) And, imagining being left with just a citadel - which is actually at its core no more than a stationary ship - is a head scratcher to say the least. Of course, we have no idea what we're going to wind up with till we get it. Intosis. SOVs. FozzieFuzzie thinking seems to be the order of the day. It's a small wonder the population is turning to small things to keep occupied.

A lot of people left some time ago claiming we're being had. There was a lot of "trust us..." going about.
Imagine saying that in an environment you created yourself predicated on "trust no one"....just imagine.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Solecist Project
#6 - 2016-08-29 09:25:36 UTC
"Trying to imagine what your corpies might need and making shopping trips with freighters is indeed a tedious chore. However, distribution of said goods then becomes a major problem."

No one does that. Any half decent organized group will be smart enough to send corp/alliance wide mails.
Any group not smart enough is too dumb to live there anyway.

This is not a concern at all. Of course it's a chore by itself, though ...
... they want to live in nullsec, so be it.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#7 - 2016-08-29 09:25:48 UTC
Knowledgeminer wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Use NPC markets like you have been using them for years. Problem solved.


LOL, except NPC broker fees aren't the same that they've been for years, precisely to promote the citadels. You don't think I wasn't aware of that "solution", do you?

So what is your problem actually? I thought its unreliable services? But now you said its also NPC broker fees.
So you have to accept one or another. Your choice. What is bigger problem to you?

There will be no structure that excells in everything. You can bet all your ISK on it.

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2016-08-29 09:30:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Serene Repose wrote:
I had a hard time imagining how this was playing EVE.

Cause there's only 1 way to play the game right?

Lack of imagination on perfect display.

Serene Repose wrote:
But, the rumblings are that the POS system is being Fozzied out. (Put all your eggs in one "head"...nice move.) And, imagining being left with just a citadel - which is actually at its core no more than a stationary ship - is a head scratcher to say the least.


Where did you get the idea that the removal of POSs means we are left with just a Citadel?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Serene Repose
#9 - 2016-08-29 09:35:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
I had a hard time imagining how this was playing EVE.

Cause there's only 1 way to play the game right?

Lack of imagination on perfect display.

Serene Repose wrote:
But, the rumblings are that the POS system is being Fozzied out. (Put all your eggs in one "head"...nice move.) And, imagining being left with just a citadel - which is actually at its core no more than a stationary ship - is a head scratcher to say the least.


Where did you get the idea that the removal of POSs means we are left with just a Citadel?
The idea is the idea isn't clear. The idea is I have no idea.

Oh, your little put down. How like you that was.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2016-08-29 09:40:53 UTC
Citadels aren't automatically meant for every player for every purpose. Yes, creating market hubs in high-sec is one of the options but good luck competing with the 500 other guys who have the exact same idea and who probably have more money than you. Just because the Citadels aren't working in your favor doesn't mean they are badly implemented (a few lacking features not withstanding).

As a null-sec player I can tell you these things are worth their weight in gold. And while you may have access to them in high-sec, don't forget these things are primarily meant to replace Outposts in 0.0. And they fill that role perfectly, if not better.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

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Solecist Project
#11 - 2016-08-29 09:52:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
TigerXtrm wrote:
don't forget these things are primarily meant to replace Outposts in 0.0.

No, they're not.

They're meant to provide a dockable structure for NewSpace.

Their primary purpose is to allow change away from the current system.
Seeing stations vanish eventually becomes and option through citadels.
Removing POS becomes an option through citadels.
Removing legacy code and making room for new gameplay.. citadels.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#12 - 2016-08-29 10:16:54 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Where did you get the idea that the removal of POSs means we are left with just a Citadel?
The idea is the idea isn't clear. The idea is I have no idea.

That's normal, but maybe you should do some reading then. The information is available.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#13 - 2016-08-29 10:37:20 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
The idea is the idea isn't clear. The idea is I have no idea.

I can't speak to the structure team's specific plans, but my understanding is that phasing out player-owned starbases is a long-term goal that requires a lot more development of current and not-yet-existing structures. There will be plenty of advance notice of the details before anything like that happens.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2016-08-29 10:40:00 UTC
Personally, I'm hoping for a bootleg holoreel production facility.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#15 - 2016-08-29 10:46:35 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
Personally, I'm hoping for a bootleg holoreel production facility.


You wouldn't steal a hologram.
Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-08-29 10:47:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Personally, I'm hoping for a bootleg holoreel production facility.


You wouldn't steal a hologram.


This is New Eden. I would steal my own mother's cremated ashes, if I could make an isk off of it.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#17 - 2016-08-29 10:55:28 UTC
I think Citadels are there to fill a new role.
Replacement of POS.
Now they have 1 item instead of 150 items.
Think here for a moment about the size of the game, about loot dropping, about the numbers of attackers.

They reduce the items in space down to 1/150 th of what it was, while also adding in factors that limit how much DPS these can receive. So there's no need to bring something that will roflstomp it empty in mere seconds as that no longer works. Throw in the timers used and now players are forced to hit at specific times, vs hitting everything at once.

Assuming they move all industry and moon mining to citadels, they have just lowered their game processing by huge amounts.

So, less items in space, less players in space, less blobs all at once (due to timers).

It also brings in a feature we were promised with POS's... "Sharing" of the POS to non-corp players. None of the promises ever materialized so I guess they will consider citadels to be them filling that.

And I disagree with others on saying that the broker fee's should just be accepted.

Now it takes nearly 20 days of skill training to get the cost down from 5% to 3%, that's quite a bit, and it is only that good if you have a standing of 10 with the corp in question. The fee's are quite excessive now, but I guess they felt it was more fair to pull isk from traders than those who were getting killed in their pods.

I like citadels, but they are honestly underpowered when it comes to defending themselves. They should be able to destroy at least some of the attackers, the way it is now means that small corps have no real reason to build their own. It doesn't "Bridge" any gap between industry and PVP... It just gives players something to spend money on and watch die.
Knowledgeminer
Oriens Vis
#18 - 2016-08-29 11:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Knowledgeminer
Nana Skalski wrote:
Knowledgeminer wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Use NPC markets like you have been using them for years. Problem solved.


LOL, except NPC broker fees aren't the same that they've been for years, precisely to promote the citadels. You don't think I wasn't aware of that "solution", do you?

So what is your problem actually? I thought its unreliable services? But now you said its also NPC broker fees.
So you have to accept one or another. Your choice. What is bigger problem to you?

There will be no structure that excells in everything. You can bet all your ISK on it.



You don't do anything that involves managing market orders in a competitive market, much less making significant changes to the price of a large number of items, do you? You're aware that CCP may very well gradually increase the NPC fees over time to whatever level is necessary to "help" players move to citadel services, right?

That said, my problem isn't broker fees. For what it's worth, many of my market orders are still NPC based because that's still a good choice in some cases. My problem is related to unreliable services, yes, but is not exactly that either. My problem is I often find myself wasting too much time having to deal with issues that are no fun at all for nearly anything I want to do in EvE and I've got tired of it.

In this case it is I bought the idea that CCP wants players move to citadel market services... great... at first... until you find out that means having to deal with utterly annoying and time consuming issues you didn't have to deal with when citadels didn't exist... and that is my BIG problem... citadel market services, which CCP wants players to use, require wasting time to deal with annoying issues we didn't have to deal with before...

I'm sure citadels are or will be great for other things, maybe for everything other than market, but for market they suck big time, yet CCP is using precisely that feature to try to make people want to build them, with the end result that we have yet another way to waste our time doing things that are utterly unproductive and no fun at all...

Maybe it's unavoidable to make players have to waste their time doing annoying things in a complex game like this, I don't know. I do know, however, that it makes (some) players to eventually get burnt out and prefer to spend that time on something else instead...
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#19 - 2016-08-29 11:43:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Quote:
My problem is related to unreliable services, yes, but is not exactly that either. My problem is I often find myself wasting too much time having to deal with issues that are no fun at all for nearly anything I want to do in EvE and I've got tired of it.

Your problem is unreliable services.
Still, certain citadels may be more reliable than others.
You are not wasting time because CCP makes it harder for you, its other players that make them unreliable, dont forget about that.

You have to deal with consequences of your choices and choices of others.
And one of them choices may be also doing nothing to protect the service you are using.

Is your choice.
Serene Repose
#20 - 2016-08-29 11:52:26 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
The idea is the idea isn't clear. The idea is I have no idea.

I can't speak to the structure team's specific plans, but my understanding is that phasing out player-owned starbases is a long-term goal that requires a lot more development of current and not-yet-existing structures. There will be plenty of advance notice of the details before anything like that happens.
Thanks so much for the clarification. I'm as good at "wait and see" as most people, I guess. . .(don't ask Santa Smile)

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

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