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Warp to 0. Why ?
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Hainnz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2012-01-16 21:11:15 UTC
Pre WTZ was a pain in the ass, seriously. I'd like space to feel vast again, but I'd rather they increase the number of systems to do it. (5x-10x current number of systems would be nice.)
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2012-01-16 22:21:24 UTC
OP sounds familiar. ^^
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#43 - 2012-01-16 22:21:52 UTC
There is not a single small industrial that could survive a 2 man BS gank in anything other than 1.0 if they had to travel more than a few meters. They simply cannot produce enough HP with their ridiculous lack of PG.


Right now the lack of major indie ganking is simply because anyone with the juicy stuff flies manual. Impliment anything removing wtz, and you will have effectively made Freighters the only viable industrial hauler (well and Orcas).
OldMan Gana
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-01-16 22:25:35 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
I have started this game less than a year ago, so I always knew it with the warp to 0 feature. But I know that this was intruduced because people used BMs to get around the 15km slowboating.

My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?

The industrial ships have bonus to maximum speed that just seems like a big waste now, and a minimal effort (not afk-APing, d-scan, pivot warp spots) can avoid you almost any risk.

I am not even a pirate, and tbh, I have more often been a victim of station/gate camping. But I still feel like the warp to 0 mechanic hurts the game.

So could some veteran players please explain me why this has been implemented as it is ?


Very quick way to find out the answer to your question is to warp to zero in all the gates from Doril- Vol in Curse.

Love United- Hate Glazer
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#45 - 2012-01-16 22:52:34 UTC
Travel in game is slow enough as it is. If I had to waste 2 minutes for a BS or Industrial (4 for an Orca) per jump I would probably quit playing. While I can understand what the OP wants, more chance to catch people, the mechanic by which you want to introduce back in to the game would become crippling (either in headaches or in server load with all the BMs).

If you were to implement a 'no warp to object within 15km' rule to try and reduce the possibility of bookmark abuse you have created a very ugly issue with the game, that being the ability to blockade a system. Once a system is run dry of materials and ships, you would be in the position to deny exit of that system by any player with a significant fleet. Blockaded players would be forced to stay there and die or jump clone out. Might sound cool at first, but the scale of it would probably drive off a number of players.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Aggressive Nutmeg
#46 - 2012-01-16 23:34:12 UTC
My desire for more excitement is less than my desire to reduce the tedium of travel.

WTZ is good.

Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana.
Arbryl
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-01-16 23:46:17 UTC
The flight from Rens to Jita takes about 1 and 30 mins manual, with wtz in a fenrir. Autopiloting, it takes about 2h45m. Why do you want to double your local haulers' travel time?
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#48 - 2012-01-17 00:48:26 UTC
I suggested this some time ago; you can easily fix the bookmark problem by increasing the warp-in radius (which is about 2500 m now) to 15 km... This means you can setup any bookmark you want, but your best bet is to command your ship to "warp to 0" in order to maximize your chances of landing at 0... fixing a bookmark anywhere around the gate at 15 could potentially make you land 30 km off your target...

- People would still land at 0 from time-to-time, but could potentially land at 15 km off the gate anywhere around it. There would be no way to predict where in the "warp-in sphere" your ship would stop.
- This would make minimal difference to those NOT PVPing while "warp to zero" would probably become the rule of thumb when PVPing and warping-in on a scanned target.
- This would potentially make certain ships designed for faster travel (like interceptors) FAR more suited for their role by giving them a bonus in that regard.
- etc, etc. Think about it.
Dantivio
Celestial Drilling
#49 - 2012-01-17 01:38:24 UTC
i think the current mechanic is fine. i would be annoyed had i had to slowboat to the gate from 15k every time. there are other ways of catching a target anywho. such as sitting on the incoming gate for that moment of vulnerability
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#50 - 2012-01-17 02:30:15 UTC
..most replies in opposition to the re-introduction of slow-boating 15km to gates (or other celestials) field tediousness as reason.

Interesting question that arises from that is: Why is there a need to travel so far in New Eden? What do different professions need to travel on average per session (Miners, MissionRunners, Explorers, Gankers, PvP'ers, Traders, Haulers, etc. pp.)?

From a design point of view.. how dense should the environment be ...how many points of interest should there be reachable within a certain time-frame? What makes an ideal composition of a space environment?
Different professions will have different answers on that.
Vyl Vit
#51 - 2012-01-17 05:01:35 UTC
The OP just wants everyone to be a victim, not just the ones on autopilot. (Good of you to care so much about the game.)

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Barbens
Saitanic Cult
#52 - 2012-01-17 05:04:14 UTC
Just go ahead and punch yourself in the face.....

I asked Bhallgorn if you should click this link, this is what he said...
Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2012-01-17 10:55:52 UTC
Morganta wrote:
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
The problem is that the basic concept of the game's core travel system, of jumping and warping players right into killing range of each other with very little warning


warning?
in a game where an undocked ship should effectively be considered lost until such time as you dock again?

you warped to a gate unscouted, there's your warning


What if you're a scout? Should a scout scout for the scout? It's scouts all the way down!
Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#54 - 2012-01-17 11:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Luh Windan
if you think you can avoid all risk try this simple exercise:

fill a hauler full of plex and travel directly from jita to Amarr manually including warp to zero.

If you implemented this idea then life would be much harder for a great many players and to what end? the less well prepared pirates would get a little more action? There are plenty of pirates that can cope just fine with WTZ - I would suggest that the limiting factor is that you have to deal with CONCORD and so it needs to be worth the loss of the ship you are in.

There are also easier ways of implementing what you want - like allowing bubbles in high sec for instance which wouldn't kill travel times or the database but again they would still be a total pain in the you know what for the majority of players.

Like it or not high sec should be relatively safe. A lot of players are not prepared to put up with loads of hassle. The effect on *all* of us would be that subscriber numbers would drop considerably and CCP would be struggling.
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-01-17 11:30:09 UTC
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
Morganta wrote:
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
The problem is that the basic concept of the game's core travel system, of jumping and warping players right into killing range of each other with very little warning


warning?
in a game where an undocked ship should effectively be considered lost until such time as you dock again?

you warped to a gate unscouted, there's your warning


What if you're a scout? Should a scout scout for the scout? It's scouts all the way down!


lol, if your dying as a scout your doing it wrong

I has all the eve inactivity
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-01-17 12:10:37 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
I have started this game less than a year ago, so I always knew it with the warp to 0 feature. But I know that this was intruduced because people used BMs to get around the 15km slowboating.

My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?

The industrial ships have bonus to maximum speed that just seems like a big waste now, and a minimal effort (not afk-APing, d-scan, pivot warp spots) can avoid you almost any risk.

I am not even a pirate, and tbh, I have more often been a victim of station/gate camping. But I still feel like the warp to 0 mechanic hurts the game.

So could some veteran players please explain me why this has been implemented as it is ?



Why don't you start playing the game and stop playing beta?

Why warp to 0 is a problem?

For who warp to 0 is a problem and why?

What are you suggestions about this supposed "problem"??

Why don't you go live in null, you'll see that warp to 0 is not a problem at all and about your undock issues you should know after all this time playing you can BM off grid and instant warp,.
Plus in high sec/null you don't even know what it looks like to have undocks/gates bubbled so what's your problem with warp to 0 or safe undocks?
Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2012-01-17 12:26:24 UTC
Karl Planck wrote:
lol, if your dying as a scout your doing it wrong


My point was though, that you are still delivered into gun range of enemies after taking a blind jump or warp. The fact that you're scouting in a ship specifically set up to survive and escape such situations is besides the point I was making.

As you are residing in this echo chamber of those fully indoctrinated into the mad little ways of this terrible game, you've probably never stopped to think about how absurd this situation is.

There's scouting in other games sure, you go and establish the location and strength of the enemy. In another game if you're moving up towards a good spot for an ambush you'll take reasonable precautions, or find a way around. The fact that Eve requires that you do this for every warp and every jump just shows how crazy its travel system is, because everywhere is a good spot for an ambush and you usually have no options for alternate routes.

I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing this out, I never expect this to change because it's too deeply ingrained in the game and its community mentality.
Siigari Kitawa
New Eden Archery Club
#58 - 2012-01-17 12:35:30 UTC
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
Your core game mechanic should NOT be tedious and time consuming. If you allowed people to warp to any gate within range (unlikely) then I'd be fine with some form of gate align time until jump etc, but since you often travel 10+ jumps in a game play session, that really adds up when you slow boat around, and doesn't make the game any more fun for the average eve player.


Core game mechanics should not be tedious and time consuming my ass. I played WoW back in BC for like, 3 months and it was cool because people had to get together and ride to their raid or fly to their raid if they were in Outland. I resubbed for Cata and now everybody stands in town waiting for their dungeon queue to pop.

That SURE IS EXCITING. There's a reason Jita has 2000 people in it at peak and 1300 at lull. Because EVERYBODY CAN GET THERE WITHOUT EXPENDING EFFORT.

Contracts are the only thing causing people to travel anymore, and that is even falling by the wayside as more and more contracts come to Jita to be listed. While I may not be begging for WTZ to be removed, things sure were a hell of a lot nicer when you had to actually WORK to get somewhere.

Now it's so lazy it feels like the game has lost a lot of its scope. I can see, promote and argue against both sides. I miss WT15.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#59 - 2012-01-17 12:53:20 UTC
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
Karl Planck wrote:
lol, if your dying as a scout your doing it wrong


My point was though, that you are still delivered into gun range of enemies after taking a blind jump or warp. The fact that you're scouting in a ship specifically set up to survive and escape such situations is besides the point I was making.

As you are residing in this echo chamber of those fully indoctrinated into the mad little ways of this terrible game, you've probably never stopped to think about how absurd this situation is.

There's scouting in other games sure, you go and establish the location and strength of the enemy. In another game if you're moving up towards a good spot for an ambush you'll take reasonable precautions, or find a way around. The fact that Eve requires that you do this for every warp and every jump just shows how crazy its travel system is, because everywhere is a good spot for an ambush and you usually have no options for alternate routes.

I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing this out, I never expect this to change because it's too deeply ingrained in the game and its community mentality.

Unless you are going into a dead end system you have never been into, there is always a potential back door, and you can always go around a choke point.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Lord Wamphyri
Starside Lost
#60 - 2012-01-17 13:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Wamphyri
For those mentioning it..

Autopilot not warping to zero was the compromise for when CCP introduced WTZ to eliminate the thousands of bookmarks.

If you want to be as safe as possible, you sit at your PC and PAY ATTENTION, and manually WTZ.

If you're lazy and want to autopilot, fine. But you shouldn't be able to AFK risk free by having the game do all the work for you. Crucible has already upgraded the AP to allow you to set a station as a destination and automatically dock there, and IMO that's more than sufficient.

[IMG]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/ChrisW73/WampsigFinal.jpg[/IMG]