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Drone Module Changes
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Nikolai Mazinkov
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-08-24 14:31:03 UTC
Just read the post on doubling the number of drones, a horrible idea, but had a new idea that would help drones without making them OP or awful.

Drones are different from other weapons. They are the slowest DPS to target with their travel time, have to keep up with the target to apply. They can be killed, and have the added difference of how DPS is applied vs every other weapon system. Without tackle or paper thin fits with multiple mods (DLAs, DNCs, DDAs, and Omidirectionals), you cant apply well.

I am suggesting a few new mods and some replacements:

One would be a scriptable drone nav computer, that give speed/range, or can script to one or the other, this replaces current Drone Link and Drone Nav Computer.

Another option to the durability issue would be a drone bay module, like an expanded cargohold that gives a flat or percentage bonus to bay space (small version gives +15, medium gives +30, Large give +75, enough for 3 extra drones per mod of the appropriate size, which jumps most drone boats to 2 full flights instead of 1.5 flights or so for many of them) or you could do a straight 30% increase per mod.

I am not sure what the best option is for drones, but they need to be better at fighting than they are. As the only weapon that is killed (except smart-bomb missile theory, which isn't practical), so need to be able to fight better while they are alive and stay alive better than they do.

My remaining thought is they need a slight increase in durability and speed across the board, if they don't get that or new modules, then they deserve something crazy like a drone power relay that gives you +1 drone control and +a few bandwidth, even if it costs a ton of fitting room



"Momento Mori", Remember That You Must Die

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afk phone
Repo Industries
#2 - 2016-08-24 15:00:14 UTC
This time 2 years ago we were in the midst of 'Ishtars Online'. Half the players hated it and the other half giggled as they abused it. Eve doesn't need to go back to that right now. Let's leave drones in their somewhat balanced position for at least a year before they get all fuckedoutofwhack again. The initial introduction of the drone modules is what made the drone boats unbalanced to begin with. Making them scriptable so that you don't have to choose ahead of time what bonus they get would be a big step toward make them unbalanced. It seems like you want a 'Buff my drones and I'll tell you how later' module that would remove a lot of fitting choices.

Here's my point. I fit out a sac for pvp. Right now I have to choose between the long (beam) and short (pulse) option at the fitting window before I undock. (same w/ blaster/rails, arty/autos, heavy/hams, cruise/torps and so on). Same is currently true with drones. Each drone module slot allows you to improve one facet at the fitting window, so you pick speed or range. The equivalent of what you are asking for is a pulse/beam scrip and I would just fit LAZORS and pick what is best on the fly.

You point out all the drawbacks that are particular to drones (travel time, keeping up w/ the target, destructible) but you don't pick out the strengths that only drones have - they can't be damped/jammed are both pretty big plusses. (maybe they can, but even so, a falcon would have to carry 5 jams to take out a single flight of 5 drones - not practical)

VNI is the current 'go to' pve boat that replaced the Ishtar. Drone boats may not be the current uncontested winner as best ships in the game, but they are still close to the top and dipping in and out of best. They don't need a buff - especially of the magnitude you are looking for.

-1
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#3 - 2016-08-24 15:08:51 UTC
Nikolai Mazinkov wrote:
Just read the post on doubling the number of drones, a horrible idea, but had a new idea that would help drones without making them OP or awful.

Drones are different from other weapons. They are the slowest DPS to target with their travel time, have to keep up with the target to apply. They can be killed, and have the added difference of how DPS is applied vs every other weapon system. Without tackle or paper thin fits with multiple mods (DLAs, DNCs, DDAs, and Omidirectionals), you cant apply well.

I am suggesting a few new mods and some replacements:

One would be a scriptable drone nav computer, that give speed/range, or can script to one or the other, this replaces current Drone Link and Drone Nav Computer.

Another option to the durability issue would be a drone bay module, like an expanded cargohold that gives a flat or percentage bonus to bay space (small version gives +15, medium gives +30, Large give +75, enough for 3 extra drones per mod of the appropriate size, which jumps most drone boats to 2 full flights instead of 1.5 flights or so for many of them) or you could do a straight 30% increase per mod.

I am not sure what the best option is for drones, but they need to be better at fighting than they are. As the only weapon that is killed (except smart-bomb missile theory, which isn't practical), so need to be able to fight better while they are alive and stay alive better than they do.

My remaining thought is they need a slight increase in durability and speed across the board, if they don't get that or new modules, then they deserve something crazy like a drone power relay that gives you +1 drone control and +a few bandwidth, even if it costs a ton of fitting room






Nawh. Drones are actually (slowly) getting to where they need to be, after various changes to both drones, drone mods, and drone ships. If you over homogenize the weapon systems, and no weapon system has special strengths and weaknesses, then the game stops being a game. There's enough modules for drones as is - bandwidth and bay are built in weaknesses to compensate for the fact that...

A)You choose your application
B)You choose your damage type
C)Takes no capacitor
D)Takes no ammo
E)Even has an e-war option (though 3/4s of these aren't options)

There was a time not too long ago when Gila and Ishtar were the only ships in the wild. Let's not go back there.


Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Nikolai Mazinkov
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-08-24 15:13:14 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Nikolai Mazinkov wrote:
Just read the post on doubling the number of drones, a horrible idea, but had a new idea that would help drones without making them OP or awful.

Drones are different from other weapons. They are the slowest DPS to target with their travel time, have to keep up with the target to apply. They can be killed, and have the added difference of how DPS is applied vs every other weapon system. Without tackle or paper thin fits with multiple mods (DLAs, DNCs, DDAs, and Omidirectionals), you cant apply well.

I am suggesting a few new mods and some replacements:

One would be a scriptable drone nav computer, that give speed/range, or can script to one or the other, this replaces current Drone Link and Drone Nav Computer.

Another option to the durability issue would be a drone bay module, like an expanded cargohold that gives a flat or percentage bonus to bay space (small version gives +15, medium gives +30, Large give +75, enough for 3 extra drones per mod of the appropriate size, which jumps most drone boats to 2 full flights instead of 1.5 flights or so for many of them) or you could do a straight 30% increase per mod.

I am not sure what the best option is for drones, but they need to be better at fighting than they are. As the only weapon that is killed (except smart-bomb missile theory, which isn't practical), so need to be able to fight better while they are alive and stay alive better than they do.

My remaining thought is they need a slight increase in durability and speed across the board, if they don't get that or new modules, then they deserve something crazy like a drone power relay that gives you +1 drone control and +a few bandwidth, even if it costs a ton of fitting room






Nawh. Drones are actually (slowly) getting to where they need to be, after various changes to both drones, drone mods, and drone ships. If you over homogenize the weapon systems, and no weapon system has special strengths and weaknesses, then the game stops being a game. There's enough modules for drones as is - bandwidth and bay are built in weaknesses to compensate for the fact that...

A)You choose your application
B)You choose your damage type
C)Takes no capacitor
D)Takes no ammo
E)Even has an e-war option (though 3/4s of these aren't options)

There was a time not too long ago when Gila and Ishtar were the only ships in the wild. Let's not go back there.





Hehe, fair, I guess I'm just sad about the DDAs being slightly less % DPS and losing some slots on those ships. Fair enough.

"Momento Mori", Remember That You Must Die

www.rvbeve.com
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#5 - 2016-08-24 16:50:49 UTC
Nikolai Mazinkov wrote:
...too long to quote...
Hehe, fair, I guess I'm just sad about the DDAs being slightly less % DPS and losing some slots on those ships. Fair enough.


Most drone modules are med slots anyways and drone damage amplifiers are not that super important. And I don't know about you but Infiltrator II's going 6345m/s is pretty fast in my book.

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Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#6 - 2016-08-25 03:26:26 UTC
I see what you are doing op, you want the same treatment ECCM and Signal boost amplifier got. CCP said lets just combine these with SEBO and sig amp. that consolidation was done since it was a fairly costly tradeoff to give up slots for either ecm proofing or better sensor effect. It was done since because of ecm even with the signal strength skill was an ongoing issue since well fit eccm or SBA still a pita tradeoff is many cases.

Now a sebo fitter could script out as needed, yay them. Not fitting sebo...well thats a player call. Was a useful mod before that and got better after changes.

Drones don't need this love. DLA not even a tradeoff fitting wise, it goes in utility slot anyway. What tradeoff are you making so dire here? No tractor or salvager?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2016-08-25 03:58:13 UTC
... drones have finally gone back to a reasonable level in the meta and you want to go back to drones online?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#8 - 2016-08-25 04:13:49 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
... drones have finally gone back to a reasonable level in the meta and you want to go back to drones online?



because of drones online a decent amount of player base has a bad mix of skills I'd wager. They'd be the gallente who do we are the drone race bit. So weak on the gun trains. No empathy there....they are a split weapon race. They have guns too....learn them. Been there starting caldari on the combat char. Its not just the missile race....need to fire hybrids once in while at least so accepted, moved and trained.
Nikolai Mazinkov
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2016-08-26 13:08:59 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
... drones have finally gone back to a reasonable level in the meta and you want to go back to drones online?



because of drones online a decent amount of player base has a bad mix of skills I'd wager. They'd be the gallente who do we are the drone race bit. So weak on the gun trains. No empathy there....they are a split weapon race. They have guns too....learn them. Been there starting caldari on the combat char. Its not just the missile race....need to fire hybrids once in while at least so accepted, moved and trained.


Haha, fair point, I love other weapons too BTW, but most "drone boats" need both weapons systems at once, so the point about split weapons race is not quite right. A moa has hybrids, a caracal has missiles, and you can't and don't need to use both at the same time to make it successful. You don't even need your small drone bay to make the ship work well. All I'm saying is that outside of a certain set of ships that are fine as they are as actual "Drone Boats" , drones are less viable as a "lone" weapon system on a ship.

That is just another aspect where drones stand out, is they have to be complimented by guns, neuts, or other support mods in the vast majority of ships. If everyone is OK with that, then its not an issue. So many people still consider drones OP and im not entirely sure why, given the reasons above.

Also, dial a damage is better with projectile and missiles than with drones, because you can swap ammo in space, but decide what to fill your drone bay with before you undock.



"Momento Mori", Remember That You Must Die

www.rvbeve.com
Lugh Crow-Slave
#10 - 2016-08-26 15:00:05 UTC
Nikolai Mazinkov wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
... drones have finally gone back to a reasonable level in the meta and you want to go back to drones online?



because of drones online a decent amount of player base has a bad mix of skills I'd wager. They'd be the gallente who do we are the drone race bit. So weak on the gun trains. No empathy there....they are a split weapon race. They have guns too....learn them. Been there starting caldari on the combat char. Its not just the missile race....need to fire hybrids once in while at least so accepted, moved and trained.


Haha, fair point, I love other weapons too BTW, but most "drone boats" need both weapons systems at once, so the point about split weapons race is not quite right. A moa has hybrids, a caracal has missiles, and you can't and don't need to use both at the same time to make it successful. You don't even need your small drone bay to make the ship work well. All I'm saying is that outside of a certain set of ships that are fine as they are as actual "Drone Boats" , drones are less viable as a "lone" weapon system on a ship.

That is just another aspect where drones stand out, is they have to be complimented by guns, neuts, or other support mods in the vast majority of ships. If everyone is OK with that, then its not an issue. So many people still consider drones OP and im not entirely sure why, given the reasons above.

Also, dial a damage is better with projectile and missiles than with drones, because you can swap ammo in space, but decide what to fill your drone bay with before you undock.






i'm sorry but most drone boats do not need their guns to work well. in fact for most of mine i opt to use utilities highs. Hell even the Sin that gets bonuses to hybrids i hardly ever fit with guns

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble