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Dev Response to Open Letter

Author
Kei Nagasai
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2016-08-22 10:54:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kei Nagasai
https://blog.skyride.org/an-open-letter-to-ccp/

Could we get a dev response to this Open Letter?
It raises some very good points that, on a personal level, would like to see changed.

EDIT:-
I didn't write the letter, just wondering about CCP's stance on the topics raised in it or bury theirs collective heads in the sand.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2 - 2016-08-22 11:14:33 UTC
Kei Nagasai wrote:
https://blog.skyride.org/an-open-letter-to-ccp/

Could we get a dev response to this Open Letter?
It raises some very good points that, on a personal level, would like to see changed.

Why would the devs respond to a whine thread. If things in space are of value then big fights will still occur.

That wall of text comes across as "qq I don't like jump fatigue" and "qq I don't like fozzie sov" and "I will try and invent reasons as to why they should be removed so we can go back to n+1 gameplay because I'm too lazy to figure out how to operate in the new system"

I don't see why the devs need to respond to that.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#3 - 2016-08-22 11:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Drago Shouna
Moac Tor wrote:
Kei Nagasai wrote:
https://blog.skyride.org/an-open-letter-to-ccp/

Could we get a dev response to this Open Letter?
It raises some very good points that, on a personal level, would like to see changed.

Why would the devs respond to a whine thread. If things in space are of value then big fights will still occur.

That wall of text comes across as "qq I don't like jump fatigue" and "qq I don't like fozzie sov" and "I will try and invent reasons as to why they should be removed so we can go back to n+1 gameplay because I'm too lazy to figure out how to operate in the new system"

I don't see why the devs need to respond to that.


It also comes across as a pve is wrong thread.." While there are some enthusiastic PVE'ers out there (I'm no exception), that isn't what the EVE Experience™ is about."

The EVE experience is what you make it, not how others would like you to make it.

Oh and small corps don't matter whine.."Firstly, I'd strongly question the moral imperative to give The Little Guy™ a chance."

I could go on, but I'd be seen as whining more than the author.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Viktor Amarr
#4 - 2016-08-22 11:30:59 UTC
"Special snowflake creates wall of text and demands to be heard, advocates massive blobbing".

Duly noted.


Gaius Clabbacus
Control Alt Delve
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2016-08-22 11:31:12 UTC
CCP has already stated several times that they do not envision a game where one or two large groups can ROFLSTOMP everyone else with ease. While a single large fight might make good PR, a lot of small empires with an equally increased amount of border friction makes an interesting environment for the players.
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2016-08-22 11:31:27 UTC
I found your public letter a bit wishy washy sorry. You've obviously put effort and thought into it, but it comes across as a bit confused and without clear points based on reasoning.
Where CCP change has occurred in the game the Devs have explained the problems and their solutions. I think for you to propose alternatives you will need to explain how your solutions tackle the problems the devs felt needed addressing. For an example of this - jump fatigue - OK so it's not popular but your solution ignores why it was put in the game to start with. If you could actually tackle that problem in your solution, your solution would carry much more weight.

I feel your entire letter comes at it from a point of view that would suit you or your group. It's more of a manifesto of what you want, than a genuine example of identifying issues, analysing the problems, and proposing solutions. Devs take much more notice when your manifesto doesn't read like a "what I want for Christmas Santa" list.

The devs also have to view the game and game mechanics from a much zoomed out perspective. Not what suits one group or another. Sometimes this even means doing things players think are bad, because from the dev point of view it's the least bad option. Sometimes players want stuff that the devs know if you gave it to the players it wouldn't make the players as happy as they think it would.

Give a small child as much ice cream as they want and the child thinks they are in heaven until 20 minutes later when they are barfing it up all over the place and feel like ****. It's the job of the devs to play the adults and stop that happening, even if the child cries because they can't have more.

Serene Repose
#7 - 2016-08-22 11:37:35 UTC
Open letters - second only to internet petitions. Cool

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Solecist Project
#8 - 2016-08-22 11:58:15 UTC
I guess from CCP's point of view these fights aren't particularly desired ...
... because they don't really help retention much ... (as they said)
... or because it doesn't help "the little guy". (who is their focus)

Or both.

Though it would be rather bad if they wouldn't happen anymore.
Obviously there's players doing them, so they should be able to actually doing them...

But i kind of disagree on the content creation part ...
... well, depending on who it was talking about.

FCs who take fleets towards a fight or on a roam aren't creating content ...
... they're seeking content.

The creators would have been the whistleblowers informing people about the titan being built.
Everything else was a consequence of this.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#9 - 2016-08-22 12:00:53 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
It also comes across as a pve is wrong thread.." While there are some enthusiastic PVE'ers out there (I'm no exception), that isn't what the EVE Experience™ is about."

The EVE experience is what you make it, not how others would like you to make it.

Yes, what a load of BS. If anything the Eve experience is defined by the fact that it is a sandbox, and so trying to distil the Eve experience simply down to blob warfare just shows how blinkered and foolish the article really is.

I expect the majority of Eve players will never fight in a big battle and will be no worse of for the fact.
Solecist Project
#10 - 2016-08-22 12:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Moac Tor wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
It also comes across as a pve is wrong thread.." While there are some enthusiastic PVE'ers out there (I'm no exception), that isn't what the EVE Experience™ is about."

The EVE experience is what you make it, not how others would like you to make it.

Yes, what a load of BS. If anything the Eve experience is defined by the fact that it is a sandbox, and so trying to distil the Eve experience simply down to blob warfare just shows how blinkered and foolish the article really is.

I expect the majority of Eve players will never fight in a big battle and will be no worse of for the fact.

Counterpoint:

There isn't much of any EVE experience when all you do is mining in highsec or running missions.*


Therefore I claim "it's sandbox, play how you want" is unrelated to what she said ...
... and if you don't actually play in the sandbox ...
... then you can't claim that you are a part of it.

To play in a sandbox you have to use its sand and do something with it.


* instead, it is a generic experience available in most other games.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-08-22 12:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
I've never been interested in sov. Not interested in joining a group with sov, because I simply don't do well with people telling me what to do and not being able to do whatever the **** I want. I'm also not keen on a 'second job'. That being said...

...this was a good read, and raises some good points. There's some silliness in there from someone taking the game just a little bit too seriously, but not a lot and I too would be interested in a response from CCP.

For the record, I'm one of those people that fully supports a number of the changes being challenged in that letter. Not all of them, but many. I won't go into detail, just thought I'd post my support for a response from CCP.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#12 - 2016-08-22 12:26:38 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
It also comes across as a pve is wrong thread.." While there are some enthusiastic PVE'ers out there (I'm no exception), that isn't what the EVE Experience™ is about."

The EVE experience is what you make it, not how others would like you to make it.

Yes, what a load of BS. If anything the Eve experience is defined by the fact that it is a sandbox, and so trying to distil the Eve experience simply down to blob warfare just shows how blinkered and foolish the article really is.

I expect the majority of Eve players will never fight in a big battle and will be no worse of for the fact.

Counterpoint:

There isn't much of any EVE experience when all you do is mining in highsec or running missions.*


Therefore I claim "it's sandbox, play how you want" is unrelated to what she said ...
... and if you don't actually play in the sandbox ...
... then you can't claim that you are a part of it.

To play in a sandbox you have to use its sand and do something with it.


* instead, it is a generic experience available in most other games.




Here's something related then..This morning I was still waiting out a timer as all 3 of my accounts are in null.

I did something else while I waited instead of moaning about it.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#13 - 2016-08-22 13:42:01 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
It also comes across as a pve is wrong thread.." While there are some enthusiastic PVE'ers out there (I'm no exception), that isn't what the EVE Experience™ is about."

The EVE experience is what you make it, not how others would like you to make it.

Yes, what a load of BS. If anything the Eve experience is defined by the fact that it is a sandbox, and so trying to distil the Eve experience simply down to blob warfare just shows how blinkered and foolish the article really is.

I expect the majority of Eve players will never fight in a big battle and will be no worse of for the fact.

Counterpoint:

There isn't much of any EVE experience when all you do is mining in highsec or running missions.*


Therefore I claim "it's sandbox, play how you want" is unrelated to what she said ...
... and if you don't actually play in the sandbox ...
... then you can't claim that you are a part of it.

To play in a sandbox you have to use its sand and do something with it.


* instead, it is a generic experience available in most other games.

Your mistake is thinking PvE comprises of just mining and HS mission running, ergo your counterpoint is invalid. And even if PvE did refer to only that, then that is still playing with the sand in the sandbox, but perhaps just a few grains of it.

When I talk about the sandbox I'm referring to much more than PvE, I am talking about, industry, small to medium gang PvP, and even out of game activities like video making and Eve events. Which ever way you look at it Blob warfare is just a small part of the sandbox.
Graabeerd Khagah
MoonFyre BattleGroup Holdings
#14 - 2016-08-22 14:04:58 UTC
Quite the wall of text and made for a good bedtime read. I am not sure where the OP was going with this but it seems to me it was going nowhere as far as the issues that were raised have already been covered elsewhere.

Sounds more like a "do it my way deal" if you ask me.
Solecist Project
#15 - 2016-08-22 14:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Moac Tor wrote:
[quote=Solecist Project]
Your mistake is thinking PvE comprises of just mining and HS mission running, ergo your counterpoint is invalid. And even if PvE did refer to only that, then that is still playing with the sand in the sandbox, but perhaps just a few grains of it.

When I talk about the sandbox I'm referring to much more than PvE, I am talking about, industry, small to medium gang PvP, and even out of game activities like video making and Eve events. Which ever way you look at it Blob warfare is just a small part of the sandbox.

Yes and now reread it all... you're in the wrong context.

The generic argument of "play how you want" is invalid in regards to a sandbox when you do not play with the sand.
Miners and mission runners, who do nothing else, don't play with the sand at all.

"Playing in a sandbox" and "sitting there, doing nothing but claiming you belong to it" aren't the same things.

This whole nonsense STARTED through those who claim they have a right to be left alone ...
... under the disguise of "equal rights" which simply do not exist ...
... which is ONLY a problem for those who don't stand up for themselves!


Fact of the matter is that every game has laws and rules. When you suck at it and die,
that's fine, but when you suck at it, die and then want it changed, then you're not playing the game correctly!

Why? Because it has rules and laws that apply to everyone and ignorance and low ability isn't an excuse against them.
Abilities can be learned. Claiming "i don't want to" is, again, pure ignorance!

Those who continuously bullshit people with "i play how i want" also use it to justify afk activity ...
... which is by definition "not playing the game"!

It's used by people who want to avoid wardecs. They too "want to play how they want" ...
... but deny others this "right", because it's not about the sandbox, but about self centeredness!

They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ...
... and most people don't even understand why it's far from one!

They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want.
They don't care about the negative consequences this behaviour has.
They ask others to care about them, while not caring about the others!

They project their attitude towards those who don't want their gameplay nerfed and removed ...
... and do so out of pure selfishness, not caring if WE can't play how we want, as long as they can!

And while we stick to the rules and laws of the game ...
... they continuously try to change them for their own selfish benefits!


So ... my counterpoint is absolutely valid against the nonsense "play how you want" ...
... because it was born out of ignorance ...
... and is kept being repeated out of ignorance!


And the rest has nothing to do with it.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#16 - 2016-08-22 14:35:37 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:

The generic argument of "play how you want" is invalid in regards to a sandbox when you do not play with the sand.
Miners and mission runners, who do nothing else, don't play with the sand at all.

"Playing in a sandbox" and "sitting there, doing nothing but claiming you belong to it" aren't the same things.

I'm not looking to join in any existing argument, I just want to point out that these types have a noticeable effect on the market. Saying they don't play with the sand and that they do nothing is inaccurate in that regard.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#17 - 2016-08-22 14:37:59 UTC
One thing that article missed:
"We forgot to fuel our pos for a whlie, so someone came by and stole a capship!"

With citadels, that's not going to happen any more because because capships don't have to be moored.

A signature :o

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#18 - 2016-08-22 14:38:36 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
[quote=Solecist Project]
Your mistake is thinking PvE comprises of just mining and HS mission running, ergo your counterpoint is invalid. And even if PvE did refer to only that, then that is still playing with the sand in the sandbox, but perhaps just a few grains of it.

When I talk about the sandbox I'm referring to much more than PvE, I am talking about, industry, small to medium gang PvP, and even out of game activities like video making and Eve events. Which ever way you look at it Blob warfare is just a small part of the sandbox.

Yes and now reread it all... you're in the wrong context.

The generic argument of "play how you want" is invalid in regards to a sandbox when you do not play with the sand.
Miners and mission runners, who do nothing else, don't play with the sand at all.

"Playing in a sandbox" and "sitting there, doing nothing but claiming you belong to it" aren't the same things.

This whole nonsense STARTED through those who claim they have a right to be left alone ...
... under the disguise of "equal rights" which simply do not exist ...
... which is ONLY a problem for those who don't stand up for themselves!


Fact of the matter is that every game has laws and rules. When you suck at it and die,
that's fine, but when you suck at it, die and then want it changed, then you're not playing the game correctly!

Why? Because it has rules and laws that apply to everyone and ignorance and low ability isn't an excuse against them.
Abilities can be learned. Claiming "i don't want to" is, again, pure ignorance!

Those who continuously bullshit people with "i play how i want" also use it to justify afk activity ...
... which is by definition "not playing the game"!

It's used by people who want to avoid wardecs. They too "want to play how they want" ...
... but deny others this "right", because it's not about the sandbox, but about self centeredness!

They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ...
... and most people don't even understand why it's far from one!

They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want.
They don't care about the negative consequences this behaviour has.
They ask others to care about them, while not caring about the others!

They project their attitude towards those who don't want their gameplay nerfed and removed ...
... and do so out of pure selfishness, not caring if WE can't play how we want, as long as they can!

And while we stick to the rules and laws of the game ...
... they continuously try to change them for their own selfish benefits!


So ... my counterpoint is absolutely valid against the nonsense "play how you want" ...
... because it was born out of ignorance ...
... and is kept being repeated out of ignorance!


And the rest has nothing to do with it.

I don't think you understand what the term sandbox actually means. Your mixing up a PvP game with a sandbox game. Eve is both, but a game can be one or the other, they are not mutually exclusive.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#19 - 2016-08-22 14:56:50 UTC
Kei Nagasai wrote:
https://blog.skyride.org/an-open-letter-to-ccp/

Could we get a dev response to this Open Letter?
It raises some very good points that, on a personal level, would like to see changed.


I like how you capitalize "Open Letter", as if an "Open Letter" is some special thing that deserves to be noted as such, grammatically.

What kind of sieve should ranty blog posts be run through to determine if they deserve a dev response?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#20 - 2016-08-22 15:09:19 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
[quote=Solecist Project]
Your mistake is thinking PvE comprises of just mining and HS mission running, ergo your counterpoint is invalid. And even if PvE did refer to only that, then that is still playing with the sand in the sandbox, but perhaps just a few grains of it.

When I talk about the sandbox I'm referring to much more than PvE, I am talking about, industry, small to medium gang PvP, and even out of game activities like video making and Eve events. Which ever way you look at it Blob warfare is just a small part of the sandbox.

Yes and now reread it all... you're in the wrong context.

The generic argument of "play how you want" is invalid in regards to a sandbox when you do not play with the sand.
Miners and mission runners, who do nothing else, don't play with the sand at all.

"Playing in a sandbox" and "sitting there, doing nothing but claiming you belong to it" aren't the same things.

This whole nonsense STARTED through those who claim they have a right to be left alone ...
... under the disguise of "equal rights" which simply do not exist ...
... which is ONLY a problem for those who don't stand up for themselves!


Fact of the matter is that every game has laws and rules. When you suck at it and die,
that's fine, but when you suck at it, die and then want it changed, then you're not playing the game correctly!

Why? Because it has rules and laws that apply to everyone and ignorance and low ability isn't an excuse against them.
Abilities can be learned. Claiming "i don't want to" is, again, pure ignorance!

Those who continuously bullshit people with "i play how i want" also use it to justify afk activity ...
... which is by definition "not playing the game"!

It's used by people who want to avoid wardecs. They too "want to play how they want" ...
... but deny others this "right", because it's not about the sandbox, but about self centeredness!

They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ...
... and most people don't even understand why it's far from one!

They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want.
They don't care about the negative consequences this behaviour has.
They ask others to care about them, while not caring about the others!

They project their attitude towards those who don't want their gameplay nerfed and removed ...
... and do so out of pure selfishness, not caring if WE can't play how we want, as long as they can!

And while we stick to the rules and laws of the game ...
... they continuously try to change them for their own selfish benefits!


So ... my counterpoint is absolutely valid against the nonsense "play how you want" ...
... because it was born out of ignorance ...
... and is kept being repeated out of ignorance!


And the rest has nothing to do with it.



Sorry Sol, I'll come back when I stop laughing..........

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

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