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What do you think CCP is planning for the barge rework?
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Commander A9
Aurora University
#121 - 2016-08-17 18:20:15 UTC
Well, guess I don't have a reason to go back to the belts.

Giving all mining vessels 2 Strip systems... :/

I didn't like the changes they made to barges back in 2011-2012, and I don't like them now.

What makes the Hulk so much of a better choice versus the Mackinaw with these changes then? :/

Recommendations:

-enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters)

-add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot)

-STOP NERFING EVERYTHING!

Join Live Events!
Kalido Raddi
Crown Mineworks
#122 - 2016-08-17 18:41:56 UTC
Kueyen wrote:
Kalido Raddi wrote:
@Kueyen: I can't get ontonSisi at the moment. Have the Grid & CPU requirements of the Strip Miners & Ice Harvesters changed with the changes to other stats?
No changes detected. Fun fact: Sisi just went down for maintance... perhaps more changes might become apparent...

Well, if that remains true, with the stats shown in earlier images fitting the Hulk will be very much like fitting the Mackinaw is now.

Base CPU of 270 is 337.5 at CPU Management 5
Base Grid of 35 is 43.75 at Power Grid Management 5

3 Mining Laser Upgrade IIs is 120 tf
each MLU also adds 9.375% to the CPU of each fitted Strip Miner at Mining Upgrades 5

2 Modulated Strip Miner IIs are 60 (base) * 1.09375 * 1.09375 * 1.09375 = 78.5064 tf

Total of 277.01 (beware of CCP_round)

Which leaves 60.49

That's not really enough to work with, so let's assume that we're adding CPU rigs.

With one Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I, CPU is 361.46 tf
With one Medium Processor Overclocking Unit II, CPU is 369.9 tf
With two Medium Processor Overclocking Unit Is, CPU is 383.13 tf

With an 6% CPU Implant in, the numbers are:

EE-606 & MPOU1 = 383.15 tf
EE-606 & MPOU2 = 392.09 tf
EE-606 & 2*MPOU1 = 410.35 tf

So at the very maximum you can have 133.34 tf (actually 133.340978296875 - beware once again of CCP_Round) for your mid slots - *if* you give up your 6th implant slot and both Rigs.

Power Grid usage comes to 27 of 43.75 MW

I'd guess that most people will be looking at 2 Hardeners, a Survey Scanner and some other tanking module. You can't fit an MSE without sacrificing an MLU for a MAPC, which defeats the point.

The trade-offs for a workable Hulk fit are going to be tricky.

It's interesting to note that while CCP have hard nerfed the CPU and Grid on the Hulk, they've left the increased Capacitor that it needed to run 3 Strip Miners untouched.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#123 - 2016-08-18 06:32:54 UTC
Kueyen wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
If the procurer and the skiff lose the 60% duration bonus why is the cycle time being multiplied by 100% instead of 60%? This would change a lot in your calculations imo.
The part you are missing is the -20% cycle time bonus all ice harvesters are getting (which boils down to a 25% yield over time increase, identical to the +25% yield bonus all strip miners are getting), In total, Procurers and Skiffs lose their x0.4 (-60%) cycle time role bonus, get a yield doubling from fitting 2 ice harvesters instead of one, and gain the new 0.8 (-20%) cycle time bonus of the new ice harvesters.

  • new cycle time is 1 / 0.4 * 0.8 (losing the 0.4 role bonus, and gaining the 0.8 ice harvester bonus), and thus doubles
  • new yield is 1 * 2 (gaining a second ice harvester), and thus doubles.

Net result: double the yield in double the time = same yield per time unit.

Also, while I rewrote this post several times, I have been ninja-ed by Kalido Raddi Big smile

Aha!! I missed the -20% module reduction! It is all good now in my head.... and it MUST BE GOOD IN MY HEAD DAMMIT!!TwistedLol

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#124 - 2016-08-18 15:21:16 UTC
Delonewolf has made a video about it. https://youtu.be/mvvlcUBe8AE

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#125 - 2016-08-18 15:53:43 UTC
im on test right now

fitted a max yield hulk
mid slot i put 1 invul field, thats all i could fit

with orca boosts i get the following
Max Yield Hulk
H- 2x T2 strip miners w/T2 crystals
M- Adaptive Invul Field II
L- 3x Mining Laser Upgrade II
Rigs- 2x shield extender rigs II

Defense: 14,209 hp
Shields: 4.356 hp, 44%/56%/67%/72%
Armor: 2.430 60%/35%/25%/10%
Hull: 2500 hp 33%/33%/33%/33%

Mining Yield: (2x 1833 m3) / 72.1 seconds. = 50.1 m3 / second (183,045 m3 per hour)
Max Tank Hulk with orca fleet boosts
-notes: I ran into power grid issues trying to fit moderately decent shield tank
H- 2x T2 strip miners w/ T2 crystals
M- Adaptive Invul Field II, Thermal Amp II, Kinetic Defl II, Medium Shield Extender
L- Damage control II, Power Diagnostics II, compact reactor control unit
Rigs- 2x Shield extender rigs II

Defense: 23,396 hp
Shields: 6860 hp, 52%/79%/84%/76%
Armor: 2430 hp 66%/45%/37%/24%
Hull: 2500 hp 60%/60%/60%/60%

Mining Yield: (2x 1415 m3) / 72.1 seconds, = 39.25 m3 / second (141,303 m3 per hour)
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#126 - 2016-08-18 16:02:17 UTC
it appears that there might be some issues with the role bonus on the makinaw on test

hulk:
mining barge bonus per level
5% strip miner range
2% strip miner duration

exhumer bonus
4% shield resist
3% strip miner duration

assumeing lv 5 in both... should be 10% + 15% faster mineing

then role bonus is 25% faster mining

Makinaw has
barge:
5% ore hold bonus
2% strip miner duration
Exhumber
4% shields
2% strip miner duration
role bonus
25% strip miner yield

so tank hulk w/o fleet bonus im showing
Mining Yield: (2x 1230 m3 / 103.3 seconds, = 23.8 m3/second (85,730 m3 per hour)

and tank makinaw w/o fleet bonus im showing
Mining Yield: (2x 1230m3) / 145.8 seconds = 16.87 m3 / second (60,740 m3 per hour)

makinaw should be mining slower (as it shows) but mineing more per cycle which is not showing up


unless im totaly blind and missing something
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
gold fever
#127 - 2016-08-18 19:04:00 UTC
Just doing some quick fittings test, the mack basically has no changes, it's 25% increase in yield comes from strip miner changes.

Looking at a passive tank for HS catalyst defense, with no implants, I get an 80% increase in EHP and a 5% increase in yield.

Strip miner 1 x 2

Kinetic amp 2
Thermal amp 2
Upgraded thermal amp
MSE 2

DCU 2
RCU 2
MLU 2

field extender 2 x 2

Def: 48,353
Shields 7290 30/81/78/65
Armor 2875 66/45/36/24
Hull 3375 all 60%

Yield 1183 m3/min
Careby
#128 - 2016-08-18 19:44:28 UTC
If they really want to see rorquals out in the belts, they could, you know, let them into highsec...
Gulmuk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2016-08-21 18:42:48 UTC
I have come to the conclusion that after this "UPDATE" I will be come one of the Skiff / Mack exclusive miners. I will sell my Hulk prior to the update because there will be no use for it any further... Thank you CCP for screwing over the miners. I am exclusively a 0.0 miner and spent the last 4 hours on SISI looking at the changes to the Exhumers, and I can say you are going to kill the HULK. There will be no more need for it. 2 strip miners on all the hulls? WTF??? You have effectively eliminated the Hulk from the game.

The last update to Exhumers you said you wanted the hulk to be a mining fleet ship. But with fleet boosters in a rorqual, I can easily run a 0.0 mining op in ships that TANK, Deal DPS, and MINE almost as much as a HULK. The SKIFF has effectively been made the best all around mining exhumer in EVE. And they are cheaper and easier to build than a HULK.


As for the Rorqual changes.. WHY would I put a rorqual in a belt or anomaly? IF they are compressing ore they are a sitting duck, and if they aren't they align so slow, they're going to get ganked. NO, I think I will still leave the rorq in the POS, use cheap haulers to move the ore to the Citadel and have a fleet of skiffs in the belt. They can tank, mine, kill the rats that spawn, and haul out their load if reds come in system. So where does the HULK fit in now? Good going CCP... Leave the mining barge changes up to the MINERS and leave the economics up to the economy nerds...


On a side note... CCP can we PLEASE get the deadspace and faction mods seeded on SISI? It's very hard to try and figure out a workable fit without them. Especially with the changes to the Exhumers.
Kueyen
Angharradh's Aegis
#130 - 2016-08-21 22:48:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kueyen
Gulmuk wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that after this "UPDATE" I will be come one of the Skiff / Mack exclusive miners. I will sell my Hulk prior to the update because there will be no use for it any further... Thank you CCP for screwing over the miners. I am exclusively a 0.0 miner and spent the last 4 hours on SISI looking at the changes to the Exhumers, and I can say you are going to kill the HULK. There will be no more need for it. 2 strip miners on all the hulls? WTF??? You have effectively eliminated the Hulk from the game.

The last update to Exhumers you said you wanted the hulk to be a mining fleet ship. But with fleet boosters in a rorqual, I can easily run a 0.0 mining op in ships that TANK, Deal DPS, and MINE almost as much as a HULK. The SKIFF has effectively been made the best all around mining exhumer in EVE. And they are cheaper and easier to build than a HULK.
As I demonstrated here, there's nothing that's changing about the Skiff's yield, whereas a max-yield-fitted Hulk is actually gaining another 7.65% over its current yield, improving it from 31.2% better than a max-yield-fitted Skiff to 41.2% better. How has that "effectively eliminated the Hulk from the game"?

Until all are free...
Autism Intensifies
some random local shitlords
#131 - 2016-08-21 23:11:28 UTC
Kueyen wrote:
Gulmuk wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that after this "UPDATE" I will be come one of the Skiff / Mack exclusive miners. I will sell my Hulk prior to the update because there will be no use for it any further... Thank you CCP for screwing over the miners. I am exclusively a 0.0 miner and spent the last 4 hours on SISI looking at the changes to the Exhumers, and I can say you are going to kill the HULK. There will be no more need for it. 2 strip miners on all the hulls? WTF??? You have effectively eliminated the Hulk from the game.

The last update to Exhumers you said you wanted the hulk to be a mining fleet ship. But with fleet boosters in a rorqual, I can easily run a 0.0 mining op in ships that TANK, Deal DPS, and MINE almost as much as a HULK. The SKIFF has effectively been made the best all around mining exhumer in EVE. And they are cheaper and easier to build than a HULK.
As I demonstrated here, there's nothing that's changing about the Skiff's yield, whereas a max-yield-fitted Hulk is actually gaining another 7.65% over its current yield, improving it from 31.2% better than a max-yield-fitted Skiff to 41.2% better. How has that "effectively eliminated the Hulk from the game"?


The worst of it all is that these people with obviously limited mental capabilities are the ones crying the most on the forum. Let's just pray CCP isn't listening to them.
Gulmuk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2016-08-22 00:42:40 UTC
Kueyen wrote:
Gulmuk wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that after this "UPDATE" I will be come one of the Skiff / Mack exclusive miners. I will sell my Hulk prior to the update because there will be no use for it any further... Thank you CCP for screwing over the miners. I am exclusively a 0.0 miner and spent the last 4 hours on SISI looking at the changes to the Exhumers, and I can say you are going to kill the HULK. There will be no more need for it. 2 strip miners on all the hulls? WTF??? You have effectively eliminated the Hulk from the game.

The last update to Exhumers you said you wanted the hulk to be a mining fleet ship. But with fleet boosters in a rorqual, I can easily run a 0.0 mining op in ships that TANK, Deal DPS, and MINE almost as much as a HULK. The SKIFF has effectively been made the best all around mining exhumer in EVE. And they are cheaper and easier to build than a HULK.
As I demonstrated here, there's nothing that's changing about the Skiff's yield, whereas a max-yield-fitted Hulk is actually gaining another 7.65% over its current yield, improving it from 31.2% better than a max-yield-fitted Skiff to 41.2% better. How has that "effectively eliminated the Hulk from the game"?


And who fits for max yeild in 0.0? I came up in this game with the HULK being the premium 0.0 mining vessel. It's what I used it for and as of last update. It's broken! This next update just seems to want to break it more. I have done the math and with a HULK tanked for 0.0, a skiff can mine 36K/m3 ore in an hour. The hulk does marginally better at 50K per hour. Plus you have to jetcan mine with a hulk. I don't live in highsec and therefore can't use a HULK in highsec. I am speaking for the 0.0 miners. And the only way to fit a good 0.0 tank on the hulk anymore is to use deadspace modules to make it work.
Gulmuk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2016-08-22 00:43:40 UTC
Kueyen wrote:
Gulmuk wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that after this "UPDATE" I will be come one of the Skiff / Mack exclusive miners. I will sell my Hulk prior to the update because there will be no use for it any further... Thank you CCP for screwing over the miners. I am exclusively a 0.0 miner and spent the last 4 hours on SISI looking at the changes to the Exhumers, and I can say you are going to kill the HULK. There will be no more need for it. 2 strip miners on all the hulls? WTF??? You have effectively eliminated the Hulk from the game.

The last update to Exhumers you said you wanted the hulk to be a mining fleet ship. But with fleet boosters in a rorqual, I can easily run a 0.0 mining op in ships that TANK, Deal DPS, and MINE almost as much as a HULK. The SKIFF has effectively been made the best all around mining exhumer in EVE. And they are cheaper and easier to build than a HULK.
As I demonstrated here, there's nothing that's changing about the Skiff's yield, whereas a max-yield-fitted Hulk is actually gaining another 7.65% over its current yield, improving it from 31.2% better than a max-yield-fitted Skiff to 41.2% better. How has that "effectively eliminated the Hulk from the game"?



Oh and I like how your Link is to a Star Wars anime video on YOUTUBE ... LOLS
Gulmuk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2016-08-22 00:46:28 UTC
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
im on test right now

fitted a max yield hulk
mid slot i put 1 invul field, thats all i could fit

with orca boosts i get the following
Max Yield Hulk
H- 2x T2 strip miners w/T2 crystals
M- Adaptive Invul Field II
L- 3x Mining Laser Upgrade II
Rigs- 2x shield extender rigs II

Defense: 14,209 hp
Shields: 4.356 hp, 44%/56%/67%/72%
Armor: 2.430 60%/35%/25%/10%
Hull: 2500 hp 33%/33%/33%/33%

Mining Yield: (2x 1833 m3) / 72.1 seconds. = 50.1 m3 / second (183,045 m3 per hour)
Max Tank Hulk with orca fleet boosts
-notes: I ran into power grid issues trying to fit moderately decent shield tank
H- 2x T2 strip miners w/ T2 crystals
M- Adaptive Invul Field II, Thermal Amp II, Kinetic Defl II, Medium Shield Extender
L- Damage control II, Power Diagnostics II, compact reactor control unit
Rigs- 2x Shield extender rigs II

Defense: 23,396 hp
Shields: 6860 hp, 52%/79%/84%/76%
Armor: 2430 hp 66%/45%/37%/24%
Hull: 2500 hp 60%/60%/60%/60%

Mining Yield: (2x 1415 m3) / 72.1 seconds, = 39.25 m3 / second (141,303 m3 per hour)



Not sure how you came up with 1833m3/cycle but with my skills all at level 5, it's 1496 T2 miners and T2 crystals with 2 MLU's. Can't fit the 3rd MLU cause you need some sort of tank in 0.0... Lest you want to lose your hulk to a 3 BS spawn quick fast and in a hurry.
Kueyen
Angharradh's Aegis
#135 - 2016-08-22 01:42:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kueyen
Gulmuk wrote:
Oh and I like how your Link is to a Star Wars anime video on YOUTUBE ... LOLS
Ugh, that's what I get for doing two things at once that involve copy-pasting links... Corrected.

You should've seen it already anyway, it's post 79 of this very thread.
Gulmuk wrote:
I have done the math and with a HULK tanked for 0.0, a skiff can mine 36K/m3 ore in an hour. The hulk does marginally better at 50K per hour.
Calling your Hulk mining 38.9% more than your Skiff "marginally" better is rather disingenuous.

Until all are free...
Kueyen
Angharradh's Aegis
#136 - 2016-08-22 16:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kueyen
And now my math is all wrong again, because the role bonus of the Retriever and the Mackinaw has vanished from the vessels' Traits lists on Singularity. I suppose they're still sorting out final stats, but this is not encouraging for dissuading people from mining in Skiffs...

It's like CCP is slowly realising that in the current barge/exhumer fitting, usage, and predation paradigm, the Retriever and Mackinaw have no role. By the Force, I think I'm starting to agree with Baltec1 in the So, Barge Info? thread...

Until all are free...
Kalido Raddi
Crown Mineworks
#137 - 2016-08-22 21:14:13 UTC
From this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=491069

CCP Fozzie wrote:
As part of this change we are increasing the yield of all barge-sized strip miners and ice harvesters, which cancels out the changes to hardpoints and bonuses on the Barges and Exhumers. We are also providing a moderate buff to the ORE Strip Miners and ORE Ice Harvesters.

The module changes in full are:
  • All Non-ORE Strip Miners: +25% volume mined per cycle
  • ORE Strip Miner: +30% volume mined per cycle, -10 CPU
  • All Ice Harvesters: -20% cycle time, -20% capacitor use
  • ORE Ice Harvester: -16 CPU

And the ship changes:

Procurer:
Removal of strip miner yield and ice harvester cycle time role bonuses
+1 highslot
+7 PWG
+55 CPU

Skiff:
Removal of strip miner yield and ice harvester cycle time role bonuses
+1 highslot
+8 PWG
+60 CPU

Retriever:
Removal of strip miner yield and ice harvester cycle time role bonuses

Mackinaw:
Removal of strip miner yield and ice harvester cycle time role bonuses

Covetor:
Changed skill bonus for the skill Mining Barge: 2% (was 4%) reduction in strip miner and ice harvester duration per level
New role bonus: 25% reduction in strip miner and ice harvester duration and activation cost
-1 highslot
+1 lowslot
-5 PWG
-15 CPU

Hulk:
Changed skill bonus for the skill Mining Barge: 2% (was 4%) reduction in strip miner and ice harvester duration per level
New role bonus: 25% reduction in strip miner and ice harvester duration and activation cost
-1 highslot
+1 lowslot
-5 PWG
-40 CPU

We're very interested in your feedback and welcome you to try out the new stats (and new ship models) on SISI.
Thanks!


The Hulk is basically impossible to max fit. The 3rd LowSlot might as well not exist.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#138 - 2016-08-23 08:33:37 UTC
Kalido Raddi wrote:


The Hulk is basically impossible to max fit. The 3rd LowSlot might as well not exist.


You need it for the CPU modStraight
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#139 - 2016-08-24 05:24:44 UTC
Baltec1, some of your ideas interest me... (im slow to be persuaded .. cant teach an old dog new tricks)

lets try and put tegether a ship... all the numbers everything..

but first have to have a base line to start with... T1 and T2 versions.... mining barge skill bonus and exhumer skill bonus

come up with a design "cap" (ie max possible X abilities on the ship) number of slots ect

as im retired and dont have much of a life except when i deside to get out and go fishin, or late at nights when the desert sky is clear, break out my telescope and look at the stars...

this will be a good exercise for my brain

will let you come up with the theoretical base line... then we can work numbers from there

one perameter we must keep constant is the current state of the economy, so the max mined can not be more then the current ships in game

one theory to toss around ... lets keep the mining frigates as they are... lets delete the mining barges and mining exhumers... lets create a mining cruiser and mining battleship (perhaps an Osprey as a base line for the cruiser and the Rokh as baseline for the battleship)
Kalido Raddi
Crown Mineworks
#140 - 2016-08-24 13:46:38 UTC
I think this is going to be the standard buffer Hulk:

[Hulk, New Hulk]

Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

'Poacher' EM Ward Field
Small F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
Small F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
'Desert Heat' Thermal Dissipation Field

Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Acolyte II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5


24k EHP. The Hardeners cost about 11mil above using Tech2, and you need to spend 5mil on an EE-602 to fit this at all 5s.

In terms of Shield alone, it's got about a quarter of the Skiff's Shield EHP, which will allow it to survive some shots from a rat battleship in Null without too much worry - as long as it's in a fleet and the rats die quickly.

But that's fine - the Hulk is intended as a Fleet mining vessel.

The big problem is the lack of a Survey Scanner, which has the potential to kill efficiency.