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On Grid Boosting and Mining Ships
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Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
gold fever
#1 - 2016-08-06 18:50:37 UTC
With the upcoming changes to OGB and the rebalance of the Rorqual and Barges, I would like to start up a conversation regarding the implementation of these changes. So far miners have gotten special treatment when it comes to boosting, and I think that with this next balance pass that special treatment should end. The problem with this is that even with the upcoming buffs, the Rorqual will probably still see little to no belt time and in HS the a medium to large fleet would require multiple Orcas (1 per belt).

Option 1 - No more Mining Boosting

This idea is the most basic. Remove mining boosting completely. All mining ships would have their stats adjusted as if they always had Orca boosting. For the Rorqual's increased boosting, the increased yield would come from the capital mining drones. If you weren't going to take the Rorqual on grid, then you would have only gotten Orca boosting anyway. This change would require a reimbursement of skills and implants directly linked to mining boosting and would require a rebalance of the Orca. On that, my vote is for either a better ore hauler (bigger bays) or a mining drone ship.

Option 2 - Persistent Buff

From what I understand, the current plan for combat boosting is that the ships will get a persistent buff. If this is implemented into mining, I think that the buff should last several minutes and should be longer than the cycle time of the module. For the Rorqual, this would mean that you could jump into the belt just long enough to refresh buff and collect ore, then run back to safety. For the Orca, this means that it can warp between multiple belts to keep a medium to large fleet boosted.

Option 3 - Boosting Barges

This would give all Barges a utility high, or introduce a new line of boosting/mining ships (even if this means an increase in Orca drone yield). Barges would get no bonus, like T1 BC, and exhumers would get a 3% per level boost. The problem with a single utility high is that it will always be the cycle time boost and the other two will see little to no use. The utility high would also give barges more options for fitting.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#2 - 2016-08-07 08:01:39 UTC
Right now, Orca and Rorqual can hide behind a POS forcefield and provide boosts for the entire system - a lot of reward for essentially no risk.

From the little CCP have told us, I infer the skill/implant based boost will continue to work as it does now - you'll need the booster role in fleet but the boost will remain system wide. Only the boosts provided by the warfare link modules will be impacted by the change. They will not require a booster role in fleet and will be limited in range and duration.

This means you can have a 10% boost for mining yield with the mining foreman skill or 15% with the ORE Mindlink implant. I consider that reasonable if you aren't putting an Orca/Rorqual at risk.

Beyond that, you will need to assess the risk/reward balance of deploying an Orca or Rorqual on grid. The Rorqual is not defensible unless you have a home defense fleet nearby. On the other hand the additional yield may justify the risk - I haven't done the calculations.
XxUltradmbxX
Space Colony
Synergy of Steel
#3 - 2016-08-08 13:18:30 UTC
i hope CCP will buff the Orca too it needs more cargo or a other reason to be in the bellt
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2016-08-09 19:33:48 UTC
Command Destroyers like the Stork can fit 3 links with two Command Processors.
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
gold fever
#5 - 2016-08-09 22:04:59 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Command Destroyers like the Stork can fit 3 links with two Command Processors.


At 1/35 the cost and 80% the boost, it's a reasonable replacement for an on grid rorqual. But it doesn't help my orca concern.

I would be just as happy if they replaced all static belts with ice belt style anomolies. That way a large fleet could cluster with less concern about reduced efficiency.
Kei Nagasai
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2016-08-10 10:58:02 UTC
XxUltradmbxX wrote:
i hope CCP will buff the Orca too it needs more cargo or a other reason to be in the bellt


Take away the rorq's boosting bonus, give it to the orca, let the orca compress ore, remove the industrial core completly from the game.
Make the rorq a pure mining carrier, and bring the componant costs in like with other combat carriers.
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
gold fever
#7 - 2016-08-10 15:03:23 UTC
Kei Nagasai wrote:
XxUltradmbxX wrote:
i hope CCP will buff the Orca too it needs more cargo or a other reason to be in the bellt


Take away the rorq's boosting bonus, give it to the orca, let the orca compress ore, remove the industrial core completly from the game.
Make the rorq a pure mining carrier, and bring the componant costs in like with other combat carriers.


But I am sure that by the time you give them a large enough yield to convince players to take them to belts, they would destroy the mineral economy.
Amarrchecko
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2016-08-11 01:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarrchecko
In terms of miners bottom line, remember that mineral prices depend on supply and demand... so any kind of "buff" or "nerf" to mining and/or boosts won't really have a very big impact on most miners.

In terms of more interesting gameplay for mining boosters? Well... I don't know if that really needs to be a big concern cause it's not like there's a lot of people playing 1 account out there and they play Eve cause they like the rorq. Just putting rorqs in belts gives them significant stuff to do though... compression on the spot (no more need for haulers), RR for weaker ships so people without faction mods and high skills can still fly covetors/hulks in null and not be warping out all the time cause of rats, still providing boosts that a lot of people won't bother with anymore cause they're so petrified at the thought of losing a rorq (which after insurance isn't that bad, especially when you can just build a new one with your product anyway instead of the hassle of sending it somewhere for sale or building something else to sell, etc)... just add mining fighters into that mix and rorqs have gameplay just by being forced into belts without needing gimmicks or anything.
morion
Lighting Build
#9 - 2016-08-11 13:05:10 UTC
if you still struggle with the rorqual ...

Solecist Project: author
Player Features and Ideas Discussion

has some ideas I had not seen before
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#10 - 2016-08-11 17:40:02 UTC
morion wrote:
if you still struggle with the rorqual ...

Solecist Project: author
Player Features and Ideas Discussion

has some ideas I had not seen before

You need to read more Rorqual threads Blink
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#11 - 2016-08-11 22:12:19 UTC
morion wrote:
if you still struggle with the rorqual ...

Solecist Project: author
Player Features and Ideas Discussion

has some ideas I had not seen before


He also has other things, mostly issues :p
Zerzzes Markarian
McCloud and Markarian Trade and Logistics Corp.
#12 - 2016-08-15 09:22:19 UTC
I'm afraid that if CCP forces the Rorqual to be on field, it will be the end of the Rorqual.The new 'superweapon' where you can make your fleet invulnerable until help arrives will be quite useless for most cases. So you would always need a very strong backup fleet that can come and rescue. So only the biggest alliances might be able to do this (but only PL is not nearby). If they would remove the industrial core, then maybe. But if you're locked on the field for 10 minutes, you will die.
Kalido Raddi
Crown Mineworks
#13 - 2016-08-15 12:28:14 UTC
I tend to agree that in most case, it's simply a 10 minute delay on the Killmail, *unless* the industrial core is removed or significantly changed.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2016-08-15 13:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
Might actually be worth mining in WH's :p ... maybe... high yeild ores please... Lock down the connections and use a rorqual... wonder if rorquals will have higher yields than barges?... Rorqual fleets? Big smile

No Worries
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
gold fever
#15 - 2016-08-15 15:29:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugues Slive
From the o7 Show, it looks like Option 3 is close to what we get, unless the 1min buff timer can be increased and Option 2 becomes viable.

Edit:

There is something that has really been bothering me about the o7 Show. Fozzie said that boosting was a boring alt job and he wanted to change that. Then they also talked about the rorqual being given the job of a null drone miner and hinted at a ORE command ship (preferably a dessies for shattered wh).

But what gets me is that right now, I often mine with lots of RL people so we only need 1 "useless" boosting alt between us. But if we each need 1 in each belt then we will need several boosting alts to get the same benifits. Hopefully this new command ship can also mine on a barge/exhumer scale, but it may be a booster/defender.
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
gold fever
#16 - 2016-08-15 16:20:21 UTC
Kalido Raddi wrote:
I tend to agree that in most case, it's simply a 10 minute delay on the Killmail, *unless* the industrial core is removed or significantly changed.


The video of the rorqual fleet shield showed it not in siege mode. And they said that you can light a cyno while shielded. So at the very least you can use MAD to reduce the chances of getting jumped.
Gaius Clabbacus
Control Alt Delve
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2016-08-16 09:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaius Clabbacus
CCP announces a new "Industrial Command Ship" aimed at a T1 battlecruiser price point for people who dont want to risk an Orca or Rorqual in the belt.

https://youtu.be/nhTD1G36vvA?t=2909

(Edit: scroll back a bit in the video for the Rorqual stuff, but the Command Ship announcement was just one line.)