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- Proposal of Ship Scanning as Hostile Act Resolution -

Author
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#121 - 2016-07-27 22:55:02 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Come to think of it, why not at least have a suspect flag for people scanning. After all, if somebody is going around a parking lot looking into cars, would that behavior not be "suspect"?

I know I known "Hurf blurf this is not real life hurf blurf not another nerf".

These days I don't get wrapped up in "don't they want PVP?" They don't. Heck even RvB turned out to be a kill-farming scam.

I agree. Anyone who looks into cars in parking lots in New Eden should gain a suspect flag.

As for ship scanning though, no. Suspect flag is not needed.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#122 - 2016-07-27 23:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Chopper Rollins
Nomad Willis wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Nomad Willis wrote:
...
At least gives you some insight on who is peeking in your "window"


There is a scanning effect in space if the scanner has a passive targeting array fitted to avoid yellow box.
...It's impossible to completely hide that you are scanning ships, so that's out, too.



Good to know, but undocking from trade hubs tends to be a visual crap show. Half the time there are 10 other ships all dog piled while everyone tries to warp off....


If you insist on or have to move in/out of hubs at busy times then assume you have been scanned. There is no reason, game or lore wise, to make scanning your cargo a hostile act.
Moving stuff in smaller, agile ships, instas etc are a hassle, but the price you pay for all huddling around hubs forever.

Don't get me started on the number of people who all want to live, pve, indy and trade within 10 jumps of Jita while nearly every null rat and roid spawns/despawns without seeing a player on grid. ANOTHER thread begging for hisec empire huddling to be made safer?

Space adventuer gaem, not spaec-creep-around-in-a-defensive-crouch gaem.

Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

zus
TxivYawg
#123 - 2016-07-27 23:22:35 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
zus wrote:
After this discussion i came to the realization that a scanning suppression signal unit needs to be developed

although a unit like this can greatly interfere with ship's sensors it will provide the privacy and ease of mind to those who select to use it


we have such a unit. it's called the Blockade Runner T2 Industrial Ship.

baltec1 wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

Edit: Incase you werent aware , blocade runners are cargo scan immune and get ganked on sight , "blocade runner roulet"


Never understood this change. What is the point of making the cargo hold unscannable on a ship that cant be locked anyway because it warps cloaked.


yeah, it is something of a redundant ship bonus. it'd be far more useful on a Deep Space Transport.



you need Industrial 5 and Industry 5 also cost at the 120,000,000 not for the average new players
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2016-07-27 23:27:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Brokk Witgenstein
Can I ask what kind of valuables you expect a new player to ferry around?
Can I ask why a new player looking to get into the hauling business has no online friends?

Le Me thinks you're using "newbees" as an excuse to push an agenda.

A T1 industrial will carry cheap, non-bulky goods like 5000 m3 at a time. They're not worth ganking unless you do something really wrong -- and to prove you're not worth ganking it's probably best to let them scan you. You'll get a free pass if the math check out.



Edit: what you're essentially saying in your last post, is that a T1 indy should compete with specialized haulers; u wot mate?? Want to put me out of business??
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#125 - 2016-07-27 23:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dark Lord Trump
zus wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
zus wrote:
After this discussion i came to the realization that a scanning suppression signal unit needs to be developed

although a unit like this can greatly interfere with ship's sensors it will provide the privacy and ease of mind to those who select to use it


we have such a unit. it's called the Blockade Runner T2 Industrial Ship.

baltec1 wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

Edit: Incase you werent aware , blocade runners are cargo scan immune and get ganked on sight , "blocade runner roulet"


Never understood this change. What is the point of making the cargo hold unscannable on a ship that cant be locked anyway because it warps cloaked.


yeah, it is something of a redundant ship bonus. it'd be far more useful on a Deep Space Transport.



you need Industrial 5 and Industry 5 also cost at the 120,000,000 not for the average new players

Then the new player should look elsewhere for a career choice while his hauling skills train. Any serious hauler needs at least a T2 hauler.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

Lex Gabinia
Res Repetundae
#126 - 2016-07-27 23:51:53 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
zus wrote:
you need Industrial 5 and Industry 5 also cost at the 120,000,000 not for the average new players

Then the new player should look elsewhere for a career choice while his hauling skills train. Any serious hauler needs at least a T2 hauler.


TRUMP!! How dare you forget that everyone should be able to everything immediately. It's all the rage these days in gaming. Roll

Fake Edit: And in 100% safe area without other player interaction as well.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#127 - 2016-07-28 00:21:31 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Come to think of it, why not at least have a suspect flag for people scanning. After all, if somebody is going around a parking lot looking into cars, would that behavior not be "suspect"?

I know I known "Hurf blurf this is not real life hurf blurf not another nerf".

These days I don't get wrapped up in "don't they want PVP?" They don't. Heck even RvB turned out to be a kill-farming scam.

I agree. Anyone who looks into cars in parking lots in New Eden should gain a suspect flag.

As for ship scanning though, no. Suspect flag is not needed.




But what about HTFU?

My, how the tune changes. I bet if scanning ships did result in s suspect flag, you'd call that a nerf to ganking.

But but I though you people always win every engagement? I thought you people are the apex feeeders of Eve, the super duper uber leet undefeatable pilots here to break people out of their RL habits of not being paranoid enough about everything?


Your type will never change, and it's the presence of people like you in this game, or this game itself (apparently) that is not going to be missed.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Lex Gabinia
Res Repetundae
#128 - 2016-07-28 00:49:23 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Come to think of it, why not at least have a suspect flag for people scanning. After all, if somebody is going around a parking lot looking into cars, would that behavior not be "suspect"?

I know I known "Hurf blurf this is not real life hurf blurf not another nerf".

These days I don't get wrapped up in "don't they want PVP?" They don't. Heck even RvB turned out to be a kill-farming scam.

I agree. Anyone who looks into cars in parking lots in New Eden should gain a suspect flag.

As for ship scanning though, no. Suspect flag is not needed.




But what about HTFU?

My, how the tune changes. I bet if scanning ships did result in s suspect flag, you'd call that a nerf to ganking.

But but I though you people always win every engagement? I thought you people are the apex feeeders of Eve, the super duper uber leet undefeatable pilots here to break people out of their RL habits of not being paranoid enough about everything?


Your type will never change, and it's the presence of people like you in this game, or this game itself (apparently) that is not going to be missed.


Let me see if I understand:

You should get a suspect timer for scanning because it is used largely by gankers?

Currently there is no penalty for using scanner on anything.

Add penalty to scanning.

I think yes, yes that could be called a nerf to ganking as you are adding a penalty to something without adding a comparable reward.

Also it just means that ganks go up because why bother scanning - just kill them all. Great idea.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#129 - 2016-07-28 02:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Come to think of it, why not at least have a suspect flag for people scanning. After all, if somebody is going around a parking lot looking into cars, would that behavior not be "suspect"?

I know I known "Hurf blurf this is not real life hurf blurf not another nerf".

These days I don't get wrapped up in "don't they want PVP?" They don't. Heck even RvB turned out to be a kill-farming scam.

I agree. Anyone who looks into cars in parking lots in New Eden should gain a suspect flag.

As for ship scanning though, no. Suspect flag is not needed.




But what about HTFU?

My, how the tune changes. I bet if scanning ships did result in s suspect flag, you'd call that a nerf to ganking.

But but I though you people always win every engagement? I thought you people are the apex feeeders of Eve, the super duper uber leet undefeatable pilots here to break people out of their RL habits of not being paranoid enough about everything?


Your type will never change, and it's the presence of people like you in this game, or this game itself (apparently) that is not going to be missed.

Why would that change ganking?

It's just not a mechanic that's needed.

If having an opinion is somehow an affront to the health of this game or something, then we are all screwed. How does having a view that no suspect flag is needed suddenly make me someone that won't be missed.

I don't personally think any of us will be missed when we leave. The game will go on regardless.

So why is my type, which can only be someone that has an opinion, such a bad thing for the game. Don't you have opinions too?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Valkin Mordirc
#130 - 2016-07-28 03:55:01 UTC
Honestly,


Like for reals.


If you are arguing for this. You are either far to entrenched on the Anti-Gankers, Highsec is far to exploited side that you are arguing only for the fact that the people that think Highsec is far to safe are here arguing because of a trolling posted an absolutely ******** idea that shouldn't obvously be ignored mainly on the fact that his idea's are absolute trash and troll bait to begin with.


Like seriously.


No wait.

Not seriously. That's my point.
#DeleteTheWeak
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2016-07-28 04:11:32 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Come to think of it, why not at least have a suspect flag for people scanning. After all, if somebody is going around a parking lot looking into cars, would that behavior not be "suspect"?

I know I known "Hurf blurf this is not real life hurf blurf not another nerf".

These days I don't get wrapped up in "don't they want PVP?" They don't. Heck even RvB turned out to be a kill-farming scam.

I agree. Anyone who looks into cars in parking lots in New Eden should gain a suspect flag.

As for ship scanning though, no. Suspect flag is not needed.




But what about HTFU?

My, how the tune changes. I bet if scanning ships did result in s suspect flag, you'd call that a nerf to ganking.

But but I though you people always win every engagement? I thought you people are the apex feeeders of Eve, the super duper uber leet undefeatable pilots here to break people out of their RL habits of not being paranoid enough about everything?


Your type will never change, and it's the presence of people like you in this game, or this game itself (apparently) that is not going to be missed.


So make people go suspect then. Go for it. See how many carebears actually engage someone with a sus..... oh wait, that would be virtually nobody, just as it always has been since Crimewatch 2.0 first began. Let me tell you what making everyone who ship scans flash yellow would result in. Yes, it would be a nerf to ganking, but not one that couldn't be adapted to. Not even close. Also, you would now have an even easier way to bait, and you'd still have the exact same number of people taking that bait as you do now, almost no one. Seriously, I couldn't tell you the number of hours I've sat around flashing yellow on various undocks not being engaged by anyone at all.

This 'change' would solve nothing. It fixes nothing, it breaks nothing, it does nothing. What carebears are actually asking for is a nerf to ganking, and this is what they think will achieve that, but once again without thinking about the wider ramifications. It's short-sighted to assume that a suspect flag being applied to ship/cargo scanning would make a significant difference, so I can only see such a suggestion as a stepping stone towards the real goal, which is in the thread's title, making it an actual hostile act that results in a criminal flag. You know, something on par with actually firing your weapons at a target in high sec illegally.

If it went there, then suicide scanning would become a thing. As it is, most people doing scanning already do it in very cheap t1 throwaway frigates with a few scanners fitted and nothing else, so again, it wouldn't even be a problem that scanners couldn't or wouldn't adapt to. A scanning ship costs less than a million isk, and people would still get scanned, and people would still get ganked.

But let's put the pure redundancy of such a change aside for a moment, and talk about why this change was suggested in the first place. Because people have an agenda, and that agenda is making high sec a safe space for their 'solo mode' eve online experience. This experience doesn't exist, and never will. So no, mate, it's not the people opposing this change that need to HTFU, it's the people that are for it, because this change would be a direct spit in the face of the HTFU philosophy. At the end of the day, the burden of HTFU falls on the players suggesting the changes to mechanics instead of, I don't know, HTFU'ing and adapting to the existing ones already in place.

I will end this essay with a simple question - bruh, do you even scan?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2016-07-28 04:14:09 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Also, you would now have an even easier way to bait, and you'd still have the exact same number of people taking that bait as you do now, almost no one. Seriously, I couldn't tell you the number of hours I've sat around flashing yellow on various undocks not being engaged by anyone at all.


Found your problem.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2016-07-28 04:16:45 UTC
A few months ago, I was running my alt in and out of various trade hubs, including Jita and Amarr, and all around various pipes, including through Uedama multiple times, carrying a bunch of plex. Ten, iirc. I even put the call out for people to come gank me for it. I ran around for hours, and got scanned all over the place carrying it. Do you know what? No one ever ganked me.

I was hauling it in a DST, with the plex in the cargo hold, not the fleet hangar, so it was entirely scannable. Despite scanning me, apparently no one could think of how to stop and gank me. I wonder what haulers might be able to learn from that lesson?

I'll be doing it again, hopefully this coming Christmas, and hopefully someone will gank me, but I'm thinking of livestreaming it this time, or at least getting video of it.

Did you know, you can actually here a click-hiss noise when you get cargo scanned, so you know it's happened, and you can take measures to avoid being a victim, like changing your route, arranging an escort, or something along those lines? Seriously, people need to start actually thinking for themselves instead of begging to have their hand held.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2016-07-28 04:17:45 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Also, you would now have an even easier way to bait, and you'd still have the exact same number of people taking that bait as you do now, almost no one. Seriously, I couldn't tell you the number of hours I've sat around flashing yellow on various undocks not being engaged by anyone at all.


Found your problem.


Elaborate.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2016-07-28 04:34:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Brokk Witgenstein
People don't like to engage on undocks, because:

(1) targets more often than not dock up
(2) reinforcements can arrive at a moment's notice (they simply have to undock -- no local spike, nothing to scout for; there's a big "unknown" factor there)
(3) if you engage and the target docks up, you're still aggressed and you still have a limited engagement. Who knows what will undock next?

I suspect undocks being generally overcrowded doesn't help, not in terms of lag/framerate and not in terms of keeping a clear overview of the situation. You won't see anything coming with the normal highsec crowd on DScan.


Edit: Oh, and of course the "Neutral Logi". You may or may not have it, but the mere threat of it dissuades would-I-should-I-maybe-try-for-him candidates.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2016-07-28 04:41:35 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
People don't like to engage on undocks, because:

(1) targets more often than not dock up
(2) reinforcements can arrive at a moment's notice (they simply have to undock -- no local spike, nothing to scout for; there's a big "unknown" factor there)
(3) if you engage and the target docks up, you're still aggressed and you still have a limited engagement. Who knows what will undock next?

I suspect undocks being generally overcrowded doesn't help, not in terms of lag/framerate and not in terms of keeping a clear overview of the situation. You won't see anything coming with the normal highsec crowd on DScan.


Edit: Oh, and of course the "Neutral Logi". You may or may not have it, but the mere threat of it dissuades would-I-should-I-maybe-try-for-him candidates.


Yeah, I know all of this. I specified undocks because that's where cargo scans take place. So a ship goes suspect on the undock because it scanned someone, and no one engages, because it's on the undock. I wasn't saying I had a problem with people not taking the bait, that just means they're smart. I was explaining why making scanning ships go suspect won't solve anything. I have many methods of baiting, this one being something I only do when I happen to be suspect, and bored, so I wait on an undock for the timer to end just to see if anything bites. Usually, nothing does. But every now and again, I get someone a little too... let's be generous and call them 'brave'.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2016-07-28 04:47:24 UTC
Of course it won't solve anything because there is nothing to be solved.

Strongly beginning to suspect OP is trolling on purpose tbh.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#138 - 2016-07-28 05:58:04 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Come to think of it, why not at least have a suspect flag for people scanning. After all, if somebody is going around a parking lot looking into cars, would that behavior not be "suspect"?

I know I known "Hurf blurf this is not real life hurf blurf not another nerf".

These days I don't get wrapped up in "don't they want PVP?" They don't. Heck even RvB turned out to be a kill-farming scam.

I agree. Anyone who looks into cars in parking lots in New Eden should gain a suspect flag.

As for ship scanning though, no. Suspect flag is not needed.




But what about HTFU?

My, how the tune changes. I bet if scanning ships did result in s suspect flag, you'd call that a nerf to ganking.

But but I though you people always win every engagement? I thought you people are the apex feeeders of Eve, the super duper uber leet undefeatable pilots here to break people out of their RL habits of not being paranoid enough about everything?


Your type will never change, and it's the presence of people like you in this game, or this game itself (apparently) that is not going to be missed.


Yes it would be a nerf to ganking for profit or at least breaking even. Why are you being deliberately obtuse?

Here is an idea don't post like a douche.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Cory Za
Republic Military School
#139 - 2016-07-28 07:11:07 UTC


Why not: just have a pop up message that advises the player.

"Cargo Scanned"

This way it keeps with the danger and fun. Players and concord can scan and you never know who.
You have a choice then to get the heart pumping or not.

"Don't be afraid to fail, be afraid to not try" - Jorym

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#140 - 2016-07-28 07:21:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Come to think of it, why not at least have a suspect flag for people scanning. After all, if somebody is going around a parking lot looking into cars, would that behavior not be "suspect"?

I know I known "Hurf blurf this is not real life hurf blurf not another nerf".

These days I don't get wrapped up in "don't they want PVP?" They don't. Heck even RvB turned out to be a kill-farming scam.

I agree. Anyone who looks into cars in parking lots in New Eden should gain a suspect flag.

As for ship scanning though, no. Suspect flag is not needed.




But what about HTFU?

My, how the tune changes. I bet if scanning ships did result in s suspect flag, you'd call that a nerf to ganking.

But but I though you people always win every engagement? I thought you people are the apex feeeders of Eve, the super duper uber leet undefeatable pilots here to break people out of their RL habits of not being paranoid enough about everything?


Your type will never change, and it's the presence of people like you in this game, or this game itself (apparently) that is not going to be missed.

Why would that change ganking?

It's just not a mechanic that's needed.

If having an opinion is somehow an affront to the health of this game or something, then we are all screwed. How does having a view that no suspect flag is needed suddenly make me someone that won't be missed.

I don't personally think any of us will be missed when we leave. The game will go on regardless.

So why is my type, which can only be someone that has an opinion, such a bad thing for the game. Don't you have opinions too?


I did some further research on the wreck EHP change which we discussed on a locked thread, it was confirmed to me that Endie did push for it because AG was ganking wrecks. This is actually a case where the Gankers got the rules changed to block an AG strategy. A number of other CSM null sec players also pushed for it, but Endie pushed for it because it benefited ganking and negated the strategy that AG was starting to do more and more.

So I totally stand by my statement that the wreck EHP was changed to benefit gankers.

EDIT: It gets even more interesting, the EHP buff to freighters was decided after that when CCP realised that the wreck EHP buff was a direct benefit to gankers, CCP Fozzie going as far as saying ,"like to pair buff and nerfs to suicide ganking to keep things in balance" Personally I would prefer that they had not changed the wreck EHP and left the freighter tank as was so we could shoot the wrecks and prevent the gankers from gathering the loot.

I would state that was one hell of a buff to ganking, or should I say loot scooping Big smile

EDIT2: Just to make it even more stark, the player you are replying to above was shooting wrecks, just so you know, so what he was doing was directly removed by CCP at the request of a CSM member whose corp was the main beneficiary of ganking in hisec. This stinks big time, it really does stink bad.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp