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Idea to for allowing capital ships in high security space

Author
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2016-07-11 06:48:55 UTC
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:


While i get your point and dont even disagree with it, you do know that caps are not required to kill other caps right? Caps are actually quite squishy.

OP: if caps were allowed in high sec it would have to be an all or none to keep the game balanced. IE: If caps are allowed in to defend citadels, then caps are allowed in to destroy citadels.

If i were going to allow caps into high sec, i wouldnt allow cynos still and you would be charged 50 mil isk fee per gate as a concord fee( much like an "oversized load" permit here in the US). If you need to go 6 jumps from low sec to defend a citadel and you are taking two fax its going to cost you 600 mil to get those fax there. Taking 4 dreads the same 6 jumps to blow up the citadel will cost you 1.2 bil isk in fees.



A 1.7 million EHP FAX that tanks 20,000 DPS indefinitely is not exactly what I would call squishy. And that's just what I threw together in EFT in five minutes, with a T2 fit.
darkneko
Come And Get Your Love
#22 - 2016-07-11 08:04:40 UTC
While I do not agree with OP as a side note: you cannot rep citadels and they have drones so why do you need a carrier?
Anthar Thebess
#23 - 2016-07-11 08:06:30 UTC
Higsec don't need capitals.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#24 - 2016-07-11 13:27:44 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:
Number's Danika...superior numbers against your carriers will always defeat them.

Let's apply some logic and reasoning to this. Go figure the "superior numbers' needed to gank a 2 million EHP brick tanked carrier in highsec using only sub-caps. Once you do that, come ask us if that number is anywhere near reasonable.

Not Dryson but I will take the bait just so the information is here for all too see.

Assuming that the carrier fit has a thermal or kinetic resist hole and using a reasonably achievable 1450 DPS Rattlesnake fit we get these.

1,380 ships firing together to alpha.
14 ships just to break through the tank plus however many more you want to deal with whatever structure or armor may be left.

So based on this just say no to caps in high sec.
Roenok Baalnorn
Baalnorn Heavy Industries
#25 - 2016-07-11 13:32:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Roenok Baalnorn
Danika Princip wrote:
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:


While i get your point and dont even disagree with it, you do know that caps are not required to kill other caps right? Caps are actually quite squishy.

OP: if caps were allowed in high sec it would have to be an all or none to keep the game balanced. IE: If caps are allowed in to defend citadels, then caps are allowed in to destroy citadels.

If i were going to allow caps into high sec, i wouldnt allow cynos still and you would be charged 50 mil isk fee per gate as a concord fee( much like an "oversized load" permit here in the US). If you need to go 6 jumps from low sec to defend a citadel and you are taking two fax its going to cost you 600 mil to get those fax there. Taking 4 dreads the same 6 jumps to blow up the citadel will cost you 1.2 bil isk in fees.



A 1.7 million EHP FAX that tanks 20,000 DPS indefinitely is not exactly what I would call squishy. And that's just what I threw together in EFT in five minutes, with a T2 fit.


While i could argue points with you all day,it would be pointless. Since i really dont disagree with your original point. The defenders should not get such an advantage over the attackers. Thats why i said all or none.


Im perfectly fine with the way things are. If you want to play with cap warfare, leave high sec. Staying in high sec, especially when you have the SP to fly caps,should have more disadvantages than advantages.

Also, if you cannot defend a citadel with the resources available to you without having "special" circumstances that give you a major defensive advantage, then you probably shouldnt own a citadel.
Kujo Minowara
Imperial Guardians
Tactical Narcotics Team
#26 - 2016-07-15 00:43:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kujo Minowara
From a design perspective, just shutting the door to more player agency possibilities (the ability for players to do stuff) is never a good thing. However, EVE is a complex system with complex balancing. Introducing capitals in highsec would be a tremendous change for some of these balances, so the question must be: how can Capital ships be introduced to highsec so that the imbalance they bring would be a resource for player entertainment more than an hindrance?

To all those that asked "how would you brake a capital fleet in high sec?" I simply ask: wouldn't another capital fleet do the trick? If capital ships are allowed in highsec they should be allowed both for offence that for defence.

Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
If i were going to allow caps into high sec, i wouldnt allow cynos still and you would be charged 50 mil isk fee per gate as a concord fee( much like an "oversized load" permit here in the US. If you need to go 6 jumps from low sec to defend a citadel and you are taking two fax its going to cost you 600 mil to get those fax there. Taking 4 dreads the same 6 jumps to blow up the citadel will cost you 1.2 bil isk in fees.


+1 to this

So, let's ask this: what would capitals in highsec change for the overall playerbase? Of course, if unrestricted, big wealthy alliances could build more easily such ships, and then have fun wardecing each other, or the smaller highsec corporations. This is a potentially disastrous outcome, as it would effectively turn highsec in a somewhat similar thing than 0.0, where big alliances would de-facto "rule" certain areas. This is unacceptable from both a player perspective (having a small corporation out of that big alliance system would be incredibly difficult if not impossible) than a lore perspective (the Empires would never allow other entities to effectively rule their space, even if this might be a non-issue as capsuleers in the game only interact with each other).
So, what kind of restrictions might be applied to mitigate these effects?
For example, capitals might be only deployed nearby Citadels, and be allowed to warp to Citadels (maybe only Forzitars) or Stargates. In this way, Capital use in highsec would only be related to attack or defence of Citadels, so that capitals may not be used to farm missions, to protect or attack mininers, to camp gates etc. This would also mean that every entity that would be affected by capitals in highsec has the wealth and resources to build or buy a Citadel, so might have smaller issues to use capitals for defend it than average highsec people that just run small corporations or do PVE.
This system might be achieved by giving a timer to capitals that jump through gates, for example, preventing them to stay nearby the gate for much more than the time to align and warp to the next gate/target citadel. If they linger too long... (hold your breadth....) ... Empire Capitals or CONCORD Capitals may appear so that capital ships can be CONCORDED (anyone that wants to see CONCORD capitals: thumbs up). Or maybe cyno fields may be activated nearby Citadels, allowing capitals to appear on the scene.
Even Titans could pass by... but then if a Titan lingers on a stargate for too long, AN EMPIRE IAPETAN TITAN APPEARS AND ONE-SHOTS IT (geez, I really want to see a Iapetan titan).

Allowing capitals in highsec shouldn't be a taboo, but it would mean that all EVE play could scale up a notch. But this has happened before: once upon a time Battleships were very rare.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#27 - 2016-07-15 13:31:17 UTC
Kujo Minowara wrote:
From a design perspective, just shutting the door to more player agency possibilities (the ability for players to do stuff) is never a good thing. However, EVE is a complex system with complex balancing. Introducing capitals in highsec would be a tremendous change for some of these balances, so the question must be: how can Capital ships be introduced to highsec so that the imbalance they bring would be a resource for player entertainment more than an hindrance?

Cap restrictions in high sec has always been about balancing the entirety of the high sec environment and about a carrot used to lure players out of high sec and into low, nul and worm holes.
But I will bite on this bait.
What are these player interaction possibilities that adding cap ships to high sec would bring?

And while you are at it explain why you NEED cap ships to add those player interactions?

And you can also explain why these interactions cannot be added with the ships that are already allowed into high sec.

As others have stated currently if you want to play with cap ships you have to leave high sec to do it and that alone is a valid reason to keep cap ships out of high sec. I am essentially a high sec dweller because that best suits my personal needs / wants and because it best fits what I need to support others in the game but I agree with them on this point, if you want to fly or kill cap ships then move to low, nul or worm hole and leave the relative safety of high sec in your rear view mirrors.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#28 - 2016-07-15 19:50:23 UTC
I giggle at the prospect of tricking a titan into CONCORDokken.

/amused Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Kujo Minowara
Imperial Guardians
Tactical Narcotics Team
#29 - 2016-07-15 19:52:33 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Kujo Minowara wrote:
From a design perspective, just shutting the door to more player agency possibilities (the ability for players to do stuff) is never a good thing. However, EVE is a complex system with complex balancing. Introducing capitals in highsec would be a tremendous change for some of these balances, so the question must be: how can Capital ships be introduced to highsec so that the imbalance they bring would be a resource for player entertainment more than an hindrance?

Cap restrictions in high sec has always been about balancing the entirety of the high sec environment and about a carrot used to lure players out of high sec and into low, nul and worm holes.
But I will bite on this bait.
What are these player interaction possibilities that adding cap ships to high sec would bring?

And while you are at it explain why you NEED cap ships to add those player interactions?

And you can also explain why these interactions cannot be added with the ships that are already allowed into high sec.

As others have stated currently if you want to play with cap ships you have to leave high sec to do it and that alone is a valid reason to keep cap ships out of high sec. I am essentially a high sec dweller because that best suits my personal needs / wants and because it best fits what I need to support others in the game but I agree with them on this point, if you want to fly or kill cap ships then move to low, nul or worm hole and leave the relative safety of high sec in your rear view mirrors.


Thank you for engaging in a discussion =)

Well, I of course see your point, and as I said before allowing capital ships use in highsec would obviously change many things all across EVE. And I have to agree that I can't see how introducing capital ships to high sec would actually bring much difference in player interaction in highsec, if done with the limitations I mentioned before, while is clear how it might bring too much unbalance if such limitations (or similar) are not introduced.

So, overall, probably allowing capital ships to highsec isn't worth it. It would risk to change highsec game to a mocking of nullsec, to draw back people from nullsec to highsec, or to not have much overall impact if not in "scaling up" the war games in high sec.
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
#30 - 2016-07-15 21:06:41 UTC
Since the original excuse for allowing them in HS is to transfer them to the other side of Null quicker, just make all cap modules blocked. That means you still keep an insane buffer, but no cap weapons, reps, or siege modules. This would make them pretty useless in HS other than to move.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#31 - 2016-07-16 08:10:27 UTC
Lugues Slive wrote:
Since the original excuse for allowing them in HS is to transfer them to the other side of Null quicker, just make all cap modules blocked. That means you still keep an insane buffer, but no cap weapons, reps, or siege modules. This would make them pretty useless in HS other than to move.


Thou shalt not move through zee highsec to get short-cut.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

zus
TxivYawg
#32 - 2016-07-16 15:44:16 UTC
Bondor Zanphre
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2016-07-16 17:45:24 UTC
I'm fairly certain Capitals in High-sec is the end goal of CCP . My reasons?

-new characters start with more SP,
-unlimited skill queues,
-jump fatigue,
- unlimited skill injectors via CCP store,
- expanded grid sizes to hold much more,
-upgraded server hardware.
- Numerous UI fixes for newer players,
-decreased the steep learning curve with opportunites
-modules tiericide
-free skill points for dailies (benefits new players based on skill amounts)
-Captial rebalnce
-Rorqual overhaul

Pick these reasons apart, someone will however the writing is on the wall, Captials are coming to high sec one day.



Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#34 - 2016-07-16 17:48:08 UTC
Bondor Zanphre wrote:
I'm fairly certain Capitals in High-sec is the end goal of CCP . My reasons?

-new characters start with more SP,
-unlimited skill queues,
-jump fatigue,
- unlimited skill injectors via CCP store,
- expanded grid sizes to hold much more,
-upgraded server hardware.
- Numerous UI fixes for newer players,
-decreased the steep learning curve with opportunites
-modules tiericide
-free skill points for dailies (benefits new players based on skill amounts)
-Captial rebalnce
-Rorqual overhaul

Pick these reasons apart, someone will however the writing is on the wall, Captials are coming to high sec one day.





That someday was years ago. Then CCP took them out of HS.
Chribba has one of the very few allowed to stay.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#35 - 2016-07-16 18:17:16 UTC
I'm with Bondor on this. They will return, I'm nearly 100% sure of it. And before that day comes we'll all watch a glorious explosion of the Veldnaught to end the decade era of them being banned Smile

Letting supercaps use gates was the first move. Allowing them to dock in Keepstars the second. So it's only matter of time before they allow at least regular caps to use gates to whizz through high-sec, and also that of being able to even contest and destroy high-sec citadels (mainly thinking the bigger ones).

/c

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar

NUBIARN
Brutal Ballerinas
#36 - 2016-07-16 19:03:52 UTC
it is way past the time capitals where allowed in high sec in my opinion. if I want to mine in a dread or do lvl 4s in a carrier or rep my friends in a fax, why not. there are better ships suited to these activities but why not let pilot fly what they like where they like..dont forget concord can insta pop any ship as they set your shields etc to zero no dps damage so you cant tank cxoncord so yep let them in. if you want to limit them thie the sec status of the system to the pilots alliance standing such that say for example to have a capital in a 0.9 sec system in amarr region you would need at least 9sec statsus with amarr, want to go to jita in a fax no problem +10 standing with caldari. some1 will say well yes this will create a standings grind, well so what. just my 2 cernts worth
Kujo Minowara
Imperial Guardians
Tactical Narcotics Team
#37 - 2016-07-16 19:05:06 UTC
Chribba wrote:
I'm with Bondor on this. They will return, I'm nearly 100% sure of it. And before that day comes we'll all watch a glorious explosion of the Veldnaught to end the decade era of them being banned Smile

Letting supercaps use gates was the first move. Allowing them to dock in Keepstars the second. So it's only matter of time before they allow at least regular caps to use gates to whizz through high-sec, and also that of being able to even contest and destroy high-sec citadels (mainly thinking the bigger ones).

/c


This might be a direction, and could make sense, maybe to expand or re-think Incursions. Those Serpentis BPs might be a precursor of pirate factions starting to attack highsec with capital fleets. Maybe such "Invasions" (cannot use Incursions) systems will be (or might be) the only place capitals can fire.
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#38 - 2016-07-25 03:59:36 UTC
Chribba wrote:
I'm with Bondor on this. They will return, I'm nearly 100% sure of it. And before that day comes we'll all watch a glorious explosion of the Veldnaught to end the decade era of them being banned Smile

Letting supercaps use gates was the first move. Allowing them to dock in Keepstars the second. So it's only matter of time before they allow at least regular caps to use gates to whizz through high-sec, and also that of being able to even contest and destroy high-sec citadels (mainly thinking the bigger ones).

/c

Can I touch your Veldnaught before you blow it up?

You know...reasons. Shocked
afk phone
Repo Industries
#39 - 2016-07-26 16:16:50 UTC
How much stuff can I cram into my new FAX.... I mean FrieghterAX before I push the auto pilot button? It's an expensive insurance policy, but you only have to pay the premium one time. I'm willing to give up some cargo space for 100% ungankability.
zus
TxivYawg
#40 - 2016-07-26 16:39:12 UTC