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Special sneaky cloaks.

Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1 - 2012-01-15 19:40:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Surely if we can be completely undetectable, we can create a holographic images and falsify information to scanners? Bear

Lying in wait.

Cloak allows you to look like an asteroid, be targeted and "mined". You can then shoot back at the miner.

Dodging the bullet.

For 5 seconds after coming through a gate and after jump cloak wear off your industrial appears to be a battle cruiser, including warping.

Hiding in plain site.

Mining barges can equip this to their mid-slot to look like an asteroid while mining. Lasers give you away but if you turn them off when someone comes along .then they have to spot the slowly moving one that is going to warp.

In general

Edit: Talking about this with a friend, they suggested that normal cloaks should have a penalty. I think I agree with the idea. All cloaks, including this one should have some sort of cap penalty. Perhaps recharge set to 0 so that they slowly run out of power and have to de-cloak?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-01-15 19:42:31 UTC
Sigh.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#3 - 2012-01-15 19:53:44 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Hiding in plain site.

Mining barges can equip this to their mid-slot to look like an asteroid while mining. Lasers give you away but if you turn them off when someone comes along .then they have to spot the slowly moving one that is going to warp.


Very creative. Miners are kinda easy targets already, the game feels like they are tolerated as a necessary evil.

What I mean, with local chat selling their presence at a glance, a ganker just has to see them in local to know a juicy exhumer is ready to be popped.

They should automate the indy stuff if the game makes them such easy targets for everyone else.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#4 - 2012-01-15 20:11:21 UTC
Jenshae Chiropter wrote:
Mining barges can equip this to their mid-slot to look like an asteroid while mining. Lasers give you away but if you turn them off when someone comes along .then they have to spot the slowly moving one that is going to warp.


So a mod that takes you off Overview, visually camouflages you, and allows you to use all your mods? That's interesting, hugely more powerful than current cloaks though. I think everyone would be going around with this mod equiped, what are the draw backs?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#5 - 2012-01-15 20:46:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Xorv wrote:
...
So a mod that takes you off Overview, visually camouflages you, and allows you to use all your mods? That's interesting, hugely more powerful than current cloaks though. I think everyone would be going around with this mod equiped, what are the draw backs?


You are still visible, only camouflaged.
You can be targeted manually.
You still appear on Local.
Would still appear on overview only that you would be labelled as an asteroid. So broadcast works.
Can only be used on mining barges.
Covetors only have one mid slot so they chose between some tank, an asteroid scanner or this.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Infinion
Awesome Corp
#6 - 2012-01-15 21:54:58 UTC
love the idea, +1
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#7 - 2012-01-15 22:47:07 UTC
This was in Homeworld Cataclysm I believe, I think it would be interesting for sure. +1
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#8 - 2012-01-15 23:47:16 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Xorv wrote:
...
So a mod that takes you off Overview, visually camouflages you, and allows you to use all your mods? That's interesting, hugely more powerful than current cloaks though. I think everyone would be going around with this mod equiped, what are the draw backs?


You are still visible, only camouflaged.
You can be targeted manually.
You still appear on Local.
Would still appear on overview only that you would be labelled as an asteroid. So broadcast works.
Can only be used on mining barges.
Covetors only have one mid slot so they chose between some tank, an asteroid scanner or this.



Not for nothing, but in null sec most mining is done from Hulks, with the exception of ice and mercoxit.

Exhumers are far more expensive to lose than just barges, so I would hope and assume they got included.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#9 - 2012-01-15 23:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Mary Annabelle wrote:

Not for nothing, but in null sec most mining is done from Hulks, with the exception of ice and mercoxit.
Exhumers are far more expensive to lose than just barges, so I would hope and assume they got included.


I am still considering the ramifications of that. I think personally, I would like to see Hulks getting enough tank for either Concord or corp / alliance members to come to their rescue and escalate the PVP.

Edit: Would like to add that, I would like to see this coupled with the idea to make lock times slower for each additional enemy locking the same target.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#10 - 2012-01-15 23:54:56 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Sigh.

C'mon dude, admit it, you want this. Miners will finally be paranoid to the extent that they even fear their own asteroids turning into pirates.

Also, not supported. Lol.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#11 - 2012-01-16 00:16:20 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Can only be used on mining barges.


That's not a draw back, neither is taking up a slot, every mod does that.

CovOps ships come pre -gimped to be able to fit a Cov-Ops cloak, any other ships takes a hit on targeting time and scan res to fit one of the other cloaks.. further that's just when their not even active. Any ship with fitted with a cloak that is active can do very little.

Speaking of which you could fit a normal cloak on a mining ship just like anyone else. Targeting delay doesn't really effect you, rocks don't run (well unless your idea was implemented), you would of course take a big cut in the rate that you were mining, but there's going to be some cost.

Wouldn't be against CovOps mining ships, perhaps built around Gas Harvesting. Of course just like all the other CovOps ships they would need to be weaker than non cloaked options.
Bernadictus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-01-16 13:52:43 UTC
No.
XXSketchxx
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#13 - 2012-01-16 13:53:28 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Sigh.

Squidgey
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-01-16 15:49:46 UTC
Since when was eve a game with a skillbar?
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#15 - 2012-01-16 17:20:31 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:


Very creative. Miners are kinda easy targets already, the game feels like they are tolerated as a necessary evil.

What I mean, with local chat selling their presence at a glance, a ganker just has to see them in local to know a juicy exhumer is ready to be popped.

They should automate the indy stuff if the game makes them such easy targets for everyone else.


I am quoting myself here to make a point. Mining is not PvP.

In fact, miners are unbalanced in PvP terms. A much less expensive ship can take out a mining ship way too easily.

Most mining ships have no means to fight back, effectively, without compromising mining.

Brace yourself, this next part is hard for many:

EVE is not just a PVP game. It has many other aspects.

If mining ships done properly are to be this lacking in offense, then they deserve a better than average defense. Mining ships are not undocking for the joy of being targets, they have a job to do.

Compromising this just so PVP enthusiasts can have easy targets is a cheap tactic, and needs to be reconsidered.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#16 - 2012-01-16 19:33:50 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Mary Annabelle wrote:


Very creative. Miners are kinda easy targets already, the game feels like they are tolerated as a necessary evil.

What I mean, with local chat selling their presence at a glance, a ganker just has to see them in local to know a juicy exhumer is ready to be popped.

They should automate the indy stuff if the game makes them such easy targets for everyone else.


I am quoting myself here to make a point. Mining is not PvP.

In fact, miners are unbalanced in PvP terms. A much less expensive ship can take out a mining ship way too easily.

Most mining ships have no means to fight back, effectively, without compromising mining.

Brace yourself, this next part is hard for many:

EVE is not just a PVP game. It has many other aspects.

If mining ships done properly are to be this lacking in offense, then they deserve a better than average defense. Mining ships are not undocking for the joy of being targets, they have a job to do.

Compromising this just so PVP enthusiasts can have easy targets is a cheap tactic, and needs to be reconsidered.

Or it's a way of making mining more interesting. Maybe it even helps to encourage miners to interact with others for safety? Or just makes them learn how not to sit in a belt next to that friendly looking -1.99 sec thrasher during hulkageddon.

If you don't want to get popped, don't go AFK. Learn how to keep an eye on what's going on around you, even if it IS in the background whilst you're watching a film, then make some friends and go do it in SoV null sec or a WH for even more ISK.

"Most mining ships have no means to fight back, effectively, without compromising mining."

How exactly do you fight back, effectively, whilst compromising mining?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#17 - 2012-01-16 19:47:24 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:

I am quoting myself here to make a point. Mining is not PvP.

In fact, miners are unbalanced in PvP terms. A much less expensive ship can take out a mining ship way too easily.


Actually while it may not be combat PvP, mining is PvP. Your own quote backs up the fact that all PvE in a game like EVE is a contributing factor in combat PvP, and therefore a form player competition aka PvP itself.

Let me explain:

There isn't an infinite demand for minerals so when you mine you are competing with other players trying to sell those same resources.

While there isn't some law of EVE that a more expensive ship must be better in every way to a less expensive ship, it's definitely true that ISK gains you more power in PvP. The more ISK you have the more easily you can afford to use better PvP ships fitted with better more pimped mods, all of which gives you an advantage in PvP. In terms of wars it's a huge factor.

Mining along with all forms of PvE in EVE generate player wealth in resources and ISK, which fuels PvP combat warfare.

So, put altoegther it boggles the mind, that some players think that PvE which has a critical impact on combat PvP and Wars should itself be excluded from being impacted by combat PvP and wars. Which is why you will see me posting all over these forums that all significant PvE that brings ISK or resources into the game should be conducted outside the protection of Concord.

If you want PvE that is completely free from PvP, then it needs to also be completely free from any form of competition between players and have 0 impact on the rest of the game.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#18 - 2012-01-16 20:04:20 UTC
Xorv wrote:
So, put altoegther it boggles the mind, that some players think that PvE which has a critical impact on combat PvP and Wars should itself be excluded from being impacted by combat PvP and wars. Which is why you will see me posting all over these forums that all significant PvE that brings ISK or resources into the game should be conducted outside the protection of Concord.

If you want PvE that is completely free from PvP, then it needs to also be completely free from any form of competition between players and have 0 impact on the rest of the game.

I think pushing all PvE activities outside the protection of concord is a bit too far Blink I'm fine with all of the high isk/hour PvE activities being outside of the protection of concord. Except incursions, until they inevitably get nerfed anyway.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#19 - 2012-01-16 20:10:16 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Mary Annabelle wrote:

I am quoting myself here to make a point. Mining is not PvP.

In fact, miners are unbalanced in PvP terms. A much less expensive ship can take out a mining ship way too easily.


Actually while it may not be combat PvP, mining is PvP. Your own quote backs up the fact that all PvE in a game like EVE is a contributing factor in combat PvP, and therefore a form player competition aka PvP itself.

Let me explain:

There isn't an infinite demand for minerals so when you mine you are competing with other players trying to sell those same resources.

While there isn't some law of EVE that a more expensive ship must be better in every way to a less expensive ship, it's definitely true that ISK gains you more power in PvP. The more ISK you have the more easily you can afford to use better PvP ships fitted with better more pimped mods, all of which gives you an advantage in PvP. In terms of wars it's a huge factor.

Mining along with all forms of PvE in EVE generate player wealth in resources and ISK, which fuels PvP combat warfare.

So, put altoegther it boggles the mind, that some players think that PvE which has a critical impact on combat PvP and Wars should itself be excluded from being impacted by combat PvP and wars. Which is why you will see me posting all over these forums that all significant PvE that brings ISK or resources into the game should be conducted outside the protection of Concord.

If you want PvE that is completely free from PvP, then it needs to also be completely free from any form of competition between players and have 0 impact on the rest of the game.


Oh, that was delightful! Not relevant to what I said, at heart, but quite charming.

I believe you said blowing up miners makes resources more scarce, thereby ensuring competition.

Actually, that creates an obstacle to competition, in that it reduces the flow of goods to market. Economic competition uses far less drastic measures, in terms of violence at least. Let the price wars start, and watch prices drop across the board.

What you advocated was comparable to invading ground armies should kill farmers, since it would then increase the value of their rations they carry with them. It really falls flat if you know the system enough to see these flaws.

No, what I am endorsing is not immunity from destruction, but something so players who are NOT afk can reliably avoid awarding killmails to little weasels who like it when their victims cannot fight back.

Simi Kusoni wrote:

How exactly do you fight back, effectively, whilst compromising mining?


Serious miners use barges or exhumers. Anything that mounts a weapon instead of a mining tool would compromise mining, since it is an extreme time issue compared to PvP or other pursuits.

Add to that the mining ships aren't meant for combat, and that is aspect 1

Aspect 2, using a BS, or other combat ship to mine with. Assuming this can be made practical, which makes no sense, combat ships just are not cut out for this, as it makes the time involved increase dramatically just to get the same results.

Again, my point is that attentive players should be able to mine in safety, if not convenience, knowing they can get out of trouble reliably.

You can pop those AFK suckers all day long, that's different.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#20 - 2012-01-16 20:32:53 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
What you advocated was comparable to invading ground armies should kill farmers, since it would then increase the value of their rations they carry with them. It really falls flat if you know the system enough to see these flaws.

I don't think that's what he meant.

What he meant was that he is competing with other players, some of those players gain ISK through mining. Therefore denying someone the capacity to mine in peace constitutes denying them an asset for use against him in PvP.

Essentially, mining falls under the purview of competitive behavior in that you are gaining resources which can then be used as you see fit, possibly to compete with others in a different aspect of the game. Therefore you should not be completely immune to attack.

Mary Annabelle wrote:
No, what I am endorsing is not immunity from destruction, but something so players who are NOT afk can reliably avoid awarding killmails to little weasels who like it when their victims cannot fight back.

Players who are not afk can avoid it, most of the time. Same for the rest of us, I can avoid having my T3s blown up when I go run WHs, most of the time. Complete safety just isn't realistic, and shouldn't be expected.

Mary Annabelle wrote:
Serious miners use barges or exhumers. Anything that mounts a weapon instead of a mining tool would compromise mining, since it is an extreme time issue compared to PvP or other pursuits.

Add to that the mining ships aren't meant for combat, and that is aspect 1

Aspect 2, using a BS, or other combat ship to mine with. Assuming this can be made practical, which makes no sense, combat ships just are not cut out for this, as it makes the time involved increase dramatically just to get the same results.

This is what confuses me, how would mounting a weapon help? Maybe putting a small tank on it, staying aligned and warping if anyone else lands on you would be better, assuming you're mining in high sec? Or just using an empty system if you're in low, and docking up the moment local spikes.

Although still, with high sec, there are some pretty empty systems about. Why not find one and mine there? I have plenty of friends that have alts that mine in high sec, I've never heard of any of them getting suicide ganked. Maybe if it's happening so often to you you're just doing it in the wrong systems?

Mary Annabelle wrote:
Again, my point is that attentive players should be able to mine in safety, if not convenience, knowing they can get out of trouble reliably.

You can pop those AFK suckers all day long, that's different.

You can mine in safety. Go find an empty system, mine. Job done. Alternatively, find an alliance, then mine in a null sec system filled with blues with an intel channel that lets you know if a red comes within 15 light years.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

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