These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Am I in the wrong game? Please help me understand!

Author
Memphis Baas
#21 - 2016-06-30 10:35:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
EVE is a real time strategy (RTS) game that is played from the point of view of a single "unit", with the meat of the game consisting of large alliances building units and gear and going to war to conquer the map. It allows smaller skirmishes too, and all the PVE (including mining and missions) is intended to be a source of money and gear to pay for the wars.

The people who enjoy RTS'es, large scale wars, small skirmishes, etc., are having a blast.

EDIT: I mean, literally, you're picking a single unit in Starcraft or Sins of a Solar Empire or whatever, and you're roleplaying that it has a life and a purpose and friends, and you're controlling that single unit and its interactions. And then you're asking where the fun is, or wondering why everyone else is so focused on conquering the map and killing your unit in the process.
Blood Retributor
#22 - 2016-06-30 14:28:01 UTC
I greatly appreciate your advice and the time you spent giving it!

I was planning to join RvB for some time but some project at RL work is holding me back, until the end of July.

I was thinking about FW and exploration also. Well, I guess, I will have to be more patient and use your advice to figure things out.

Probably, one day I will re-read my post and laugh at myself.

BTW, Arkoth 24 you made me smile Big smile! Sounded a lot like the "ISIS of Eve" (hint: CODE Big smile) lingo! For me, Eve is anything but pain (after all it's just a game).

Thank you all, for your patience and understanding!

One step at a time ...

Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
The Watchmen.
#23 - 2016-06-30 14:30:46 UTC
I just wish we would stop using the term PvE around newbies. It's not the same term as it is in other MMO's and it's relative only to itself within EVE. If we keep reinforcing the idea that EVE is ALL PvP, then there's no confusion about it. Later on it's okay to introduce the relatively lower ship/ISK risk aspects of the game as being called "PvE".

I think the clearer it is, up front, that this game is not only complex but wide-open and you against the universe from the start is probably about the best antidote we have against losing newcomers from total shock.
Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2016-06-30 14:56:40 UTC
I like Solai's idea to give some examples of goals/achievements/playstyles :

For my part, I never have enough ISK to lose expensive ships in PvP as i'd love to, because i find grinding alone boring. But flying PvE fleets with nice players is a perfect way to have fun with something otherwise repetitive and to raise funds for my losses.

Find a populated and active corporation in your time zone, who often enough group to do together things you like or need, and you'll have a much more interesting in game experience, whatever goals you find for yourself.
Blood Retributor
#25 - 2016-06-30 15:33:33 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
I think the clearer it is, up front, that this game is not only complex but wide-open and you against the universe from the start is probably about the best antidote we have against losing newcomers from total shock.


As a noob that played anything but MMO, and does not have the "socializing" in a game as a priority, I do not think that "you against the universe" is the "shocker". Most shooting games (if not all) have the same approach.

I just think that in its attempts to market the game to potential new players CCP fails to understand that they do not provide enough of a bait for players like me (no friends in Eve, no MMO experience, not much loyalty and investment into the game, but with some interest in Space stuff). To go through the "pain" of learning the complex world of Eve the modern new player needs to see the "gain".

Most people trying out Eve do not understand why do they have to break their mind with countless spreadsheets in a game when they have enough of it at school, work, well, RL.

If anyone at CCP would listen and care, I would have made a suggestion:
1. create a separate environment (like Singularity) for noob access only for three days (a week maybe)
2. give them access to unlimited fitted ships, with unlimited (trained) skill points
3. give them step by step missions: fights (FW, PvP) with good AIs, encourage them join fleets with FCs that would simulate those of real players from Tranquility
4. Give them step by step missions for exploration.
5. Tell them there are options of mining, manufacture, hauling, etc. and let them know they can try those later on Tranquility if they wish so. (No offense to players who like these, but even these occupations might or will require flying and shooting).

In short, give them access to whatever options a three-five year old active player would have access to. Help them feel what they can achieve if they put in the time and the sub money.

6. Tell them at the very beginning it is a DEMO ONLY and they will not be able to bring anything they achieve here to Tranquility.
7. Tell them at the end that now they are ready to start their rookie training in the Real Eve World where they will have to grind for those skills and ships and had access in the demo.
8. Tell them that in Real Eve World they are easy prey for older players and that they should be expecting to be hunted.
9. Teach them how they can avoid the most foolish rookie mistakes (there is enough statistical info on the forums to identify those).
10. Kick them out of the DEMO at the end of the period telling them that their access to it is blocked and they can use their login info to access their account on Tranquility.

Someone might point out that I (talking about myself) did not have that and am still here. Yes, I am, because I can be stubborn and miss StarTrek too much Big smile! My original post will tell you that even that is barely enough.

One step at a time ...

Blood Retributor
#26 - 2016-06-30 16:01:48 UTC
I will use an allegory to show how most new players who leave must feel.

You log into the game and instantly feel stupid, because you have no idea what you are supposed to be doing next. So you know, you feel like you are flat on your face in the mud.

Now, you gather your wits and your courage and undock - trying to get on your knees, on your way to the standing position. If you are not lucky, there is an a**** who just out of amusement (or killboard ***) will gank you, going against the UA. So now you are back on your face in the mud.

Say, you are lucky and you did not get ganked as soon as you undocked. You try different things, make stupid mistakes (you are a noob after all) and lose your ship(s). So now you are back to square one, face in the mud.

As a result, most of those who go through this kind of experience will say f*** this game and never come back, telling their friends and acquaintances what a pain in the *** Eve is. Game Over!

CCP, you do not have to hold the hand of new players for the whole time they are playing the game. However, holding their hand to stand up and get a feel of the real game, would greatly increase the numbers of those who will stay longer and potentially bring new players by telling them what a great newbie experience they had. At least I think so.

Well, I am not CCP and maybe they prefer to stay where they are. It will be sad if one of the most popular space theme MMO will slowly die.

I might be absolutely wrong in everything of the above, I am new to Eve after all. Just sharing my thoughts.

One step at a time ...

Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2016-06-30 16:04:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tao Dolcino
No one is forcing you to play EVE and there are nowadays many offers on the net for the "modern players" Roll
You miss other space games you have played before, and you criticize EVE for not being like them. Once again, no one is forcing you to play EVE.
The fact that the game is not easy for the newcomers and the fact that the game is different from the mainstream ones are two separate things : I agree that we can improve the newcomers' experience, but that doesn't mean that i agree to dumb down the game to become an easy console game for lazy or superficial people, because 99% of the games on the market are already like that.
If this game becomes like WoW in space, then what's the point to have choice between so many games if they all are clones of each others ?
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
The Watchmen.
#28 - 2016-06-30 16:07:55 UTC
Blood Retributor wrote:
As a noob that played anything but MMO, and does not have the "socializing" in a game as a priority, I do not think that "you against the universe" is the "shocker". Most shooting games (if not all) have the same approach.


EVE does not act, and is not marketed, like a First Person Shooter. It is marketed and has more in common with standard MMO's in it's nature than it does an FPS. However, yes, there is a parallel to it in the sense that it's you taking on all comers and survival can depend on your on-line buddies to help you out.

While my own experience with the game biases me as to what my experience was, I think it's a common one. Thus my comment about it being 'you against the universe'. It is PvP at all levels, even the activities more experienced players call PvE are still PvP actions, they just have lower risk and you can opt to avoid making it PvP and only focus on yourself. However, that's the individual players choice to avoid the PvP aspect, not that it doesn't exist, it's just a choice.

Being a sandbox, that's okay, it's valid and acceptable. It's not a play style for everyone, but everyone needs to recognize all legal play styles are valid or risk invalidating their own.
Blood Retributor
#29 - 2016-06-30 16:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Blood Retributor
Tao Dolcino wrote:
If this game becomes like WoW in space, then what's the point to have choice between many games if they all are clones of each others ?


I did no say CHANGE THE GAME, I suggested a friendlier newbie intro! What/who does not evolve, dies out! It is a rule of life!

Sorry if I did not make that clear enough!

If you read attentively my posts, I do not suggest changing the game, I ask "how is it supposed to be", "am I doing it right", "do I understand this or that correctly", "AM I in the wrong game"?

I never said the game is wrong and needs to be fixed according to my preferences (or anyone else's). You like it, you play it, you don't then "GTFO" and find something that suits you and stop whining. That's how I perceive it.

This is why I am asking questions, when in doubt. No need to tell me that no one is forcing me, I know that.

And I do not have to criticise Eve. The existing player base is doing a great job at it without me. Just read the feedback for the latest patch Lol! I have not been with the game long enough to know it well and criticise its features.

One step at a time ...

Brynjard
Meaal Contractors
#30 - 2016-06-30 16:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Brynjard
Hi Blood!
Hope you find joy and fun as skills get complete and new stuff available for you to both fly and do.

I agree with you about the new player friendly start. The 1.0 sec system is suppose to work as you suggest. But without the skills and ships :)

What happend to you; you where unlucky.

CCP are working on the new player tutorial.
Roenok Baalnorn
Baalnorn Heavy Industries
#31 - 2016-06-30 16:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Roenok Baalnorn
Quote:
Most people trying out Eve do not understand why do they have to break their mind with countless spreadsheets in a game when they have enough of it at school, work, well, RL.
They dont. Ive been playing 8 years and ive never used a spreadsheet for eve. Ive only looked at other peoples to LOL.

Some people enjoy that part of the game. They like making eve more complex than it is. But thats the beauty of eve. You can make it as complex or as simple as you like.

Your main problem is going to be the learning curve. Eve has a very steep learning curve and people will try to gank you on that curve. Its part of the game. Eve actually works in reverse of most games. It starts out hard and gets easier as you gain skills and experience.


Quote:
If anyone at CCP would listen and care, I would have made a suggestion:
1. create a separate environment (like Singularity) for noob access only for three days (a week maybe)
2. give them access to unlimited fitted ships, with unlimited (trained) skill points
3. give them step by step missions: fights (FW, PvP) with good AIs, encourage them join fleets with FCs that would simulate those of real players from Tranquility
4. Give them step by step missions for exploration.
5. Tell them there are options of mining, manufacture, hauling, etc. and let them know they can try those later on Tranquility if they wish so. (No offense to players who like these, but even these occupations might or will require flying and shooting).


This kind of sounds like doing career agents( f12 while in game). Eve has always been rough on newbies. But i think its better for the game because it weeds out a lot of people we dont want playing anyway. You will find, despite some appearances, that eves player base is much more mature and more intelligent than other games as intelligent people are drawn more to complex games( hence why you see people analyzing spreadsheets, coming up with ways to use game mechanics to their advantage, etc)

CCP does pay more attention to players than other games. The devs and other ccp staff frequent the forums far far more than other games. Customer support is far better( even if they arent always the most helpful at fixing my problemsUgh). And players do influence a lot what gets put into the game.

You will also find there is no handholding in this game. CCP encourages us to play as we please( mostly) with tools they give us. Eve is probably the most hardcore game on the market. There has been much debate on how to encourage newbies to stay long enough to really get into the game. It is a fine line between making it more appealing to newbies and watering the game down, which is something players here fight hard against.

Quote:
Someone might point out that I (talking about myself) did not have that and am still here. Yes, I am, because I can be stubborn and miss StarTrek too much Big smile! My original post will tell you that even that is barely enough.
And thus you might be suitable for eve. If you said "game is to hard, to complex, etc., im not playing unless you change it." We would tell you bye. And we would tell you this because you are likely an undesirable player. What is an undesirable player in eve?

- Someone that whines all the time about how hard the game is and demanding it be changed to be easier.
- Someone that complains about being ganked, killed, scammed, etc. and demands it be changed, rather than simply learn the game mechanics and pay attention.
- Someone that wants the players or more specifically CCP to hold their hand so they can do their pve without interference from other players( this is a social MMO. one of the key components of gameplay is to socialize)
-Someone that has played all of a few days and comes to the forums and wants to make sweeping changes to suite their playstyle rather than change their playstyle to suit the game.
- Someone that tries to water the game down into what we like to call "World of Warcraft in Space"
- Generally immature people ( though many of us may act immature at times) that makes you feel like you are in daycare.


Eve caters to a very specific type of player. These players tend to be quite loyal as this is there game and there really arent any mainstream games that cater to them like eve does. Eve players nor CCP wants to be like "everyone else" Both want to be different. And both like it that way. Either a new player likes that difference or they like the standard MMO done over and over again with different graphics, hero, and backstory IE: clones.
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#32 - 2016-06-30 22:37:44 UTC
21,000 folks disagree daily, as they were all new to the game at some point and are playing at any given time.

The difference, IMO between yourself and your ilk (OP) is that EvE is a sandbox game in which you can do anything. And you find that daunting, as you're used to someone telling you what to do...what you can do...what you can't do. When faced with the myriad opportunities offered by EvE, folks like yourself freeze-up like a deer in the headlights.

Successful pod pilots see that tabula rasa and grab the oils, chalk, crayolas and begin creating their world.

Unsuccessful pod pilots cringe in fear at such daunting opportunity. And there are lots of those. It's nothing to feel bad about.

EvE is not for everyone. It's for the creative. The imaginative. The ambitious. The adventurous.

If you don't see the opportunity, you're going to continue to not enjoy the game. You can be a bad pilot and still garner respect in this game. But you cannot be a miserable pilot and hope to gain any respect.

KB

Dum Spiro Spero

Antheria
SkyMarshaller Corp
#33 - 2016-07-01 01:00:04 UTC
You obviously have a brain & a conscience (unlike many people in EvE) so I won't regurgitate some of the earlier advice, other than to say the first response by Tau is probably the most helpful.

For me the ongoing attraction of EvE is the social aspect. My best times in EvE have been doing "things" with other people & helping younglings. That said finding a like-minded group of people will be your challenge (if you decide to stay in the game).

Good luck for the future.
Blood Retributor
#34 - 2016-07-01 02:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Blood Retributor
KaarBaak wrote:
When faced with the myriad opportunities offered by EvE, folks like yourself freeze-up like a deer in the headlights.
Unsuccessful pod pilots cringe in fear at such daunting opportunity. And there are lots of those. It's nothing to feel bad about.
EvE is not for everyone. It's for the creative. The imaginative. The ambitious. The adventurous.
KB


Thanks!!! You made me feel so much better Roll. And provided a very constructive and informative answer Ugh!!! May your path lead you to people who will be as helpful as yourself!

KaarBaak wrote:
You can be a bad pilot and still garner respect in this game. But you cannot be a miserable pilot and hope to gain any respect.KB


The "respect" in an online game is the least thing I care about! My part is to behave with dignity and show respect for others wherever I go, will other people respect me or despise me for that is out of my control.

Thanks again!

One step at a time ...

Memphis Baas
#35 - 2016-07-01 02:17:16 UTC
Some of the stuff that you're asking for in post 25 above takes quite a bit of effort on CCP's part. Realize that they've set up the game for minimal effort; they just create a bunch of ships and we create all the "content" with them. Also, 3 days of newbie-only stuff on a test server that gets wiped out regularly (for testing), in order to attract the 1000 or so newbies that may be trying the game... may be wasted effort coding stuff for that small of a % of the playerbase.

In addition, they don't really know what attracts newbies (and older, discontinued players), other than new graphics/ships/features, or news of some major player war. They've switched from a patch every 6 months to a patch every month in order to increase the new graphics/ships/features, and player wars are somewhat out of their control (the alliance leaders have grown accustomed to insults to their girlfriends and don't go to war so easily anymore).

As a sandbox game, EVE has a big issue: only a few people continue to be kids into adulthood. You give a kid a doll and she can play with it for years, inventing her own stories / personality / etc. As adults, we read books, watch movies, participate in stories written by other people; I could try to invent my own story, but it would be boring to me, and even if it's interesting to others, it's still boring to me because I already know how it goes.

So you need to be in a good corp., so that your corpmates or the officers or the corp itself can have goals (and stories) that you can participate in. That's the secret to this game.
Blood Retributor
#36 - 2016-07-01 02:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Blood Retributor
Memphis Baas wrote:
... may be wasted effort coding stuff for that small of a % of the playerbase.


Thanks Memphis!

I read a lot of your posts/replies and always appreciated your insight.

As I mentioned before, suggesting to make changes to the game never even crossed my mind.

The part that you are referring to is just my vision of what could help other potential players join Eve's Universe.

If CCP is happy with the current state of things and the player base is happy with the established status quo, then there is no need for any changes in the newbie attraction/help/guidance approach.

I am not here to be a thorn in everyone's ***. In my RL job oftentimes I have to collect information, analyse, draw conclusions and suggest solutions if necessary. I thought the opinion/view of an absolute noob might provide some value (that's after we settled the issue with me going in the wrong direction in Eve). If it does not, then, it just should be disregarded and not considered as criticism.

One step at a time ...

Blood Retributor
#37 - 2016-07-01 02:49:23 UTC
Thank you, everyone!

I got my answers.

I really appreciate the time and thought that you put into your replies!

One step at a time ...

Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2016-07-01 05:32:03 UTC
You are very right to give your feedback as new player, and CCP and us older players have indeed to make more efforts to make new players stay. It's in the interest of us all.
But criticizing the game on the base that it's not like the other games you have played before and that there are spreadsheets is not constructive : it will only lead to dumbing down EVE until it becomes another generic shallow product you play one week then forget all together. And then EVE will indeed die economically.
Tzuke
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2016-07-01 08:40:51 UTC
Blood Retributor wrote:
Thank you, everyone!

I got my answers.

I really appreciate the time and thought that you put into your replies!


I can only echo your thoughts about the game. This is my 3rd attempt at EVE in a decade. I'm doing better this time than my previous attempts but I would like to see a "friendlier" environment for new players. It hasn't happened in the last decade and I doubt it will change at all. While other mmo's spend god knows how much on expansions, updates whatever you call it, fundamentally EVE is the same game (or appears to me) as it always was. Something still appeals to me about EVE and I guess that's how you feel.

Maybe Star Citizen or No man's sky will be a better alternative for us than EVE..who knows
Netan MalDoran
Sinister Intent
#40 - 2016-07-01 16:04:39 UTC
I mostly buy PLEX for ISK and do passive things like PI (And sometimes exploration), then I use the cash for having PvP fun!

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth

Previous page123Next page