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mining in high sec space

Author
Sedit Bellum
The Blasters
#1 - 2016-06-27 20:06:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sedit Bellum
I got my Venture destroyed mining in 1.0 space by a suicide pirate or however they are called. No big deal, I only lost an hours worth of assests, but it's how I got destroyed I'm here.

I'm new to the game, 3 days new, and I've been mining for now to make ISK until some basic skills are accumulated. That being said, I've been mining in high sec space to for a little bit of security, but this guy who got me warped in 2 seconds after I did. I just warped in and headed to an asteroid and 2 seconds later he does and locks me and destroys my Venture in like 1.5 seconds, no exaggeration, it was about that fast.

What can I do to avoid this, because for a new player I just can't see how to handle something like this, not being able to at least shoot back or evade.

Also, other then destroying my ship, he pretty much got nothing from me as I had nothing of value yet, just 2 mining lasers and he got destroyed by Concord, makes no sense to me.
Paranoid Loyd
#2 - 2016-06-27 20:20:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Your ship is much faster than his, simply orbiting him outside of his range (orbiting at 15km should be well out of his range) would mean he wouldn't be able to hit you. Fit an MWD (micro warp drive) and it will be even easier to get outside his range.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Sedit Bellum
The Blasters
#3 - 2016-06-27 20:25:40 UTC
He warped in, locked me, and 1 shot me within 1.5 seconds. It would take me longer just to turn and face him.
Maekchu
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2016-06-27 20:34:17 UTC
Not everyone suicide gank for profit. Just find some quiet system away from main hubs and mine. The chance of getting ganked in a far out system is much smaller.

Since I can't find the killmail, I can't see what he lost. However, ganking a venture pretty much always require a more expensive ship than the venture itself. So at least you won the ISK war :P
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2016-06-27 20:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Okay so... it sounds like you were Suicide Ganked for giggles.

Congrats as this is probably the worst-case scenario you will ever face in High-sec (besides War Declarations). Other situations you encounter in the future not be as fast paced as this.


Now... before I can explain what things you can do avoid this situation in the future, I need to explain how Suicide Ganking works.

The general idea behind Suicide ganking is to blow up a target ship before the NPC police arrive.

The NPC police, called CONCORD, will respond to any "illegal" act of aggression in high-security space (1.0 to 0.5 space).
This response is purely punitive (the NPCs don't care about you, only making the offender pay for their craven act) and will result in the destruction of the offender's ship 100% of the time.
Avoiding this punishment or delaying in any way is seen as an exploit and will result in a ban from the GMs.

More than that... there is no amount of tank that can mitigate the damage coming from CONCORD. These NPCs basically use a "death ray" to wipe out percentages of the offender's HP (alongside regular, "standard" damage).

Now... the response times for COCNORD are thus:
- 5 seconds in 1.0 space
- 6 seconds in 0.9 space
- 8 seconds in 0.8 space
- 10 seconds in 0.7 space
- 13 seconds in 0.6 space
- 15 seconds in 0.5 space
- No response in 0.4 or lower space


What the Suicide Gankers do is choose a ship with high damage potential and max out that stat. Destroyer class ships are generally preferred, though they can use bigger ships if they want to take out tankier, more high value targets.

Let us use a Catalyst as an example as it is the preferred ship for most ganks (and the gankiest destroyer in general).

[Catalyst, Ganking Ship Example]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer I

5MN Microwarpdrive I
[empty med slot]

Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
[empty rig slot]


With max skills applied and the weapons overloaded, this ship can pump out about 400 damage per second.
Using the above response times, that is...
- 2000 damage in 5 seconds in 1.0 space
- 2400 damage in 6 seconds in 0.9 space
- 3200 damage in 8 seconds in 0.8 space
- 4000 damage in 10 seconds in 0.7 space
- 5200 damage in 13 seconds in 0.6 space
- 6000 damage in 15 seconds in 0.5 space

So your ship has to effectively tank that much damage, in that amount of time, in order to survive.

Now please bear in mind.... these numbers are all "upper limit" numbers. A ganker may do less damage if conditions are not optimal (which we will get into in a bit).


Now why do Suicide Gankers do this? Everyone has a reason, but they basically boil down to three things:

- For Profit: This type of ganker is generally selective and will attack people they think they can make a profit off of. They try to calculate the value of their gank ship(s) versus the value of the potential loot. If they can potentially break even or turn a profit, they will mobilize and make an attempt.

- Make a Statement: Some of your mining competitors may not be keen on "sharing" asteroid belts with you. They will thus nuke you (or hire someone to nuke you) and use your wreck to set an example to others.

- For Giggles: Some people simply want to see the world burn. Cost and/or political fallout are not factors to these kinds of gankers. And if you mobilize against them... well... they like that too. They basically want to make things explode for the sake of things exploding.



What can you do?
There are a few things you can do. None of them are silver bullets, but they will stack the odds more in your favor.

- Tank your ship: As pointed out above, the gankers are trying to apply as much damage as possible in as short a time as possible. If you have more HP than they have damage (even 1 more HP can make a difference), you will survive.
------ The best tanks you can fit for this purpose are called "Buffer Tanks." The general idea is to load up on raw HP (see: Shield Extenders, Armor Plates) and increase your damage resistances (see: Adaptive Nano Plating, Shield Amplifiers).
------ "Active Tanking" is the act of fitting an Armor Repairer or Shield Booster to "repair" or "absorb" damage. This is generally not preferred against Suicide Ganking as it may not be fast enough to counter the amount of incoming damage.

- Keep moving at all times: All weapons have a formula that takes speed and range into account. If you mess with either of those variables, you can mitigate the some of the incoming damage.
------ Orbit the asteroid you are mining. Not only will this mess with the ganker's ability to apply damage but it also adds the asteroid as a potential obstacle that can block their flight path to you, further frustrating their efforts.

- Stay at range: You may want to stay close to the rocks. I get it. It looks cooler. It feels safer. But it also gives a ganker a potential warp-in point. When you stay out at range... you force them to fly to you. This can give you the precious few seconds you need to warp away to safety.

- Don't AFK, use D-Scan: Not much to say about this. I know mining is boring and all that, but stay alert and keep an eye on your Directional Scanner for potential ganking ships (you will be scanning for destroyers within 1 AU of where you are).

- Get a tankier ship: Take a look at the Procurer. Gankers hate that ship.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#6 - 2016-06-27 21:07:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
A few easy things to do to stay safe, get into a backwater system. Find a system in HS that has less than five people in local chat. Gankers typically don't take the time to move to out of the way systems, since there aren't many targets. Do your mining for a while, then spend some time hauling it to a market hub/refining it/manufacturing something/etc. Pay attention, even when mining. If ANYONE shows up in your belt, warp away immediately, yes even if its another person mining. That other miner could very well be a scout

I'm going to say this next part with a giant exception to it. The rest of what I say is only valid for the next few weeks or so. After you're not a newbie any more regardless of what system you're in and you're not protected in any way by CCP.

__________

Given how new you are to the game, it's important to note there are a *few* rules around suicide ganking like this. If you are new (less than a month or so) and are in one of the rookie systems (listed below) someone should not go after you. Those are the ONLY systems protected from this, and they are also only protected for very new players.

If you were killed in any of these systems, hit F12 in game and file a support ticket. This will do two things, first, it might get your ship back, and second, it should warn the ganker to actually follow the TOS when it comes to newbies in newbie systems (come on people, find a challenging target, you might have more fun).

Chaven
Sehmy
Emrayur
Kisogo
Todaki
Amsen
Duripant
Bourynes
Cistuvaert
Ammold
Ryddinjorn
Hulm
Deepari
Pasha
Conoban
Uitra
Jouvulen
Akiainavas
Couster
Clellinon
Trossere
Hadaugago
Malukker
Embod
Sedit Bellum
The Blasters
#7 - 2016-06-27 21:24:16 UTC
I was i Deepai, so I should be able to get my ship back? I already accepted the loss, didn't think I'd get my ship back as I thought no place was really truly safe.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#8 - 2016-06-27 21:33:42 UTC
Sedit Bellum wrote:
I was i Deepai, so I should be able to get my ship back? I already accepted the loss, didn't think I'd get my ship back as I thought no place was really truly safe.


It is true that no place is really safe. They make a small exception in the systems I just listed for new players. Given you are less than a week old, you definitely qualify. I'd file a ticket under the F12 menu and give it a shot. You don't have a ton to lose.

After you start venturing outside of the career agent systems, and especially once you're 3 weeks to a month old, that small bit of protection is gone for good.

Read this: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203209712-Rookie-Griefing
Sedit Bellum
The Blasters
#9 - 2016-06-27 21:41:07 UTC
Thanks for the info!
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#10 - 2016-06-27 21:59:15 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#11 - 2016-06-28 00:33:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
On top of all the good stuff posted by Tau and Sonya you should know that there is a CCP provided ship insurance scheme. You will get a small payout if your ship is uninsured, however if it's insured you get a greater payout to ease the pain of replacing it; the insurance covers the hull only.

As you become more embroiled in this cut throat universe of ours you might end up joining a corp that does a similar thing known as an SRP (ship replacement program); they'll generally replace ships lost by corp members if they meet certain criteria, such as the type of ship lost or the activity they were taking part in when they exploded. Some corps will literally throw cheap ships at newbies, especially ones that do gloriously daft things like suicide tackle ridiculously expensive stuff.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
#12 - 2016-06-28 03:12:02 UTC
OP you have been given some good advice thus far. I would add:

- Never use autopilot. It warps you to around 13km of the gate and then you "slowboat it" to the gate at your ships fastest base non warp speed. It gives gankers plenty of time to scan you and decide if you are worth the effort. It also lets them know you probably arent paying attention.

- Do not AFK play eve. While it is possible to afk play, all kinds of bad things can happen if youre gone for just 60 seconds. IF you need to afk for a few minutes the best thing to do is to dock up or warp to a friendly citadel( friendly citadels show on your overview) and tether up.

Future advice:
- Once you join a player corp you are vulnerable to wardecs. Make sure you check your wardec list at least once a day.
- Always be mindful of the value of your cargo AND ship modules. Extra care and special fitted ships may be needed to haul more valuable cargo. For example, to haul blueprint originals of cruisers battlecruisers, battleships, etc., faction/deadspace/officer modules, more than 100 million in implants, high value skillbooks, etc and other such items that tend to have a high value/m3 , i would use an insta warp interceptor or at least a fast warp t1 frigate.
- If you shop at jita or amarr or other major trade hubs, one of the first things you should do when you arrive is set a insta warp undock point. Basically you want to use a fast frigate( with a microwarp drive) and you want to undock at the hub. When you undock turn on the MWD and wait. You want to go at least 200 km from the undock like this. I recommend at least 400 km( mine is set at a bit over 1000 KM). When you get to your desired distance, you want to ctrl + B. This will bookmark the spot and allow you to name it and save it. Now when you shop at these hubs and you undock as soon as your screen loads, you right click in space select the bookmark and warp to. This will allow you an almost instant warp in most ships even battleships and industrials. From your insta warp bookmark you can now warp to where you want to go in the system.

People are particularly vulnerable on undocks in trade hubs because your ship is rarely facing the right direction. Its good to make such undock bookmarks at any place you will be hauling high value loot out of.
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2016-06-28 05:26:55 UTC
Someone poked you in Deepari? I remember that place, and my time there was... less interesting.
On not dying with your mining ship:

Your Venture is fast. With a microwarpdrive, you can outrun a cata. It also comes with two integrated warp core stabilizers, so an afterburner is enough to get away from the cata: it has to choose between the MWD to actually keep up with you, and the second short-range scram to actually turn off your warp drive.
The Procurer/skiff should have a Damage Control Unit (DCU) and mids full of shield hardeners, and maybe an extender. If you can fit a medium extender, that wouldn't hurt either. If you fit an ancillary current router, you fit a cruiser-sized afterburner and fly faster than a cata.
Retriever/Mackinaw should mine waaaaay far away from trade hubs where it's rare to see even one guy in system. Any 0.5/0.6 system a few jumps away from Amarr is a deathtrap for a squishy barge.
The Covetor/Hulk requires support (it fills up its relatively tiny hold very quickly, something has to haul all that stuff to the station), so shouldn't be used solo unless it's seriously quiet (jetcan stuff and come back for it with a Miasmos).
Do not buy the ORE mining laser. There's a good chance whoever sold it will come out and kill you for it just so they can get the shiny killmail and sell it again.

You can drag chat tabs into new windows. Always have one open to local so you can see who's there.
If you know someone (hi CODE) is a likely threat, set them to either bad or very bad standing. This will put a red icon next to their name in local.

Directional scan is your friend. If everyone's favorite gank boat (catalyst) shows up on it, turn off your miners and run.



For profit in hisec, your Venture's third high slot should have a salvager. Drones kill the rats, salvager cleans them up. Loot is usually uninteresting, but:
If you get the very rare faction spawn ([special] pirate faction: True Sansha, Dark Blood), it can drop very shiny faction loot. Once I got 15M worth of stuff from one of those: ~5M for the tech 2 salvage (intact armor plates), ~10m for a meta micro auxiliary power core. More recently I got a Dark Blood Adaptive Nano Plating (not energized, sadly). Salvaging the shiny faction wrecks pretty much requires a salvager and a few levels of skill. Using salvage drones might require an implant and/or the salvage drone skill at level 5 (necessary for barges). The shiny rats will threaten your Venture if you let them get their favorite firing solution.
If you get a transport spawn, it drops refined minerals, which will take up quite a lot of your Venture's cargo hold.
And from the regular pests, you can occasionally get a bronze tag off of them, which sells for a few million.

A signature :o

Netan MalDoran
Sinister Intent
#14 - 2016-06-28 05:49:47 UTC
Sounds like you were blasted for the lolz, I did this to a poor random Venture once with a trash rifter cause I was a new PvPer and was frustrated that I wasnt getting any real kills :P

But yeah, if he killed you in a rookie system, then thats against the rules, report him and he could be banned.

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#15 - 2016-06-28 06:04:13 UTC
Netan MalDoran wrote:
Sounds like you were blasted for the lolz, I did this to a poor random Venture once with a trash rifter cause I was a new PvPer and was frustrated that I wasnt getting any real kills :P

I remember doing something like this when I was a nubbin.

I was in the middle of a war declaration (we were ransoming a corporation for their shiny POS) and I undocked from a station in a shuttle (I was going to run some missions elsewhere). I saw a Retriever owned by a war target undock with me and warp off to an ice belt (I guess he didn't see me?)

I quickly redocked and pulled out a battlecruiser I had sitting in my hanger (it was a Brutix and it was the second battlecruiser I had ever bought). It was not fitted so I simply slapped some guns on it and a warp disruptor.

I warped to the ice belt and there he was. I pointed him and sent my drones after him. Apparently they were repping drones so I was simultaneously killing and repairing him at the same time (which my corp repeated at a later date with another poor soul).


Moral of the story; some people like to see the world burn in the most humorous fashion possible.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2016-06-28 08:10:43 UTC
Hello and welcome to Eve, sorry to hear about your loss.

Make sure you add that character and his Corp to your personal contacts with -10 standings. They will then show as Red in local chat which will make it much easier for you to see them quickly.

All in all this thread has some very good advice with some humorous stories thrown in as well.

I hope you have a long and rewarding career here in Eve.



DMC
Arkoth 24
Doomheim
#17 - 2016-06-28 09:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkoth 24
Sedit Bellum wrote:
I was i Deepai, so I should be able to get my ship back? I already accepted the loss, didn't think I'd get my ship back as I thought no place was really truly safe.

Shoting down new pilots in so-called "rookie systems" is prohibited and CCP has a little tolerance in such cases. It's up to you to report the suicide-ganker to CCP or not. Rules are rules, he should know it.

Anyway, mining is the most simple thing to start, but it's not recomended if you don't want to choose a miner's career. If you don't want to become a miner - try something else, like mission running or exploration.

The list of "rookie systems" and warning from CCP may be found HERE . Thanks again, CCP, for Evelopedia closure .
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
Apocalypse Now.
#18 - 2016-06-28 14:45:37 UTC
Yeah, if he warped in and locked you up that fast he knew exactly what he was doing. In a rookie system that is not good at all.

If it weren't against the forum rules, I wish we all knew his name (doesn't stop you from emailing it to me). I have a Venture I'd happily bait him with, because even though something like a gank catalyst can really dish it out, they can't take it and they are badly myopic for damage (can only deal close in damage).

This is (thankfully) rare. I've never been a victim to it but in the end, learning to fit your ships and having the skills to pilot them appropriately is really what shuts this down. That's why clowns like this guy do this in rookie systems, they aren't good enough to hack it out in main space, so they pick on newbies.

I'll post up a decent Venture build capable of mining and defending itself. You'll need to get some drone skills to really optimize it but the Venture is really a good little ship, about the best for starting characters that want to do a little of everything. It can even be fitted for combat.

Welcome to EVE, check your 6.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
Apocalypse Now.
#19 - 2016-06-28 15:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Pandora Carrollon
Here's a solid (but not cheap) Venture build:

Venture, Hi Sec Venture (Ice Miner)

Ice Harvester Upgrade I

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender

Ice Mining Laser I
Ice Mining Laser I
Salvager I

Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Core Defense Field Purger I

Drones:
Hobgoblin I x2

Used in HiSec for ICE. Can be modified with cloak and Gas Mining for WH work. Can swap out Lasers and Upgrade for roam rock mining. Salvager allows to fully salvage dead rats and opportunity salvaging but once this has lower utility for you, you can swap in a Prototype Cloaking device and start mining riskier areas, perhaps NullSec if you really want to get out there quick, but normally you'd be in a good corp by then or really like risky mining and go for WormHole Gas mining.

This ship costs less than 1/5th of what a Procurer does and is more mobile. It's not a dime a dozen Venture fit so it can actually survive some of the nastier HiSec rat encounters easily. It would give you enough time to escape a gank ship if you are watching your Overview. By the way, turn up your WARP SOUND volume to maximum. If you hear someone warp in, immediately check your Overview. If you see a Destroyer on it... leave. A frigate won't really be strong enough to kill you before Concord arrives. A Cruiser would likely have no interest in dying to take you down, even carrying White Glaze.

The ship would pay for itself in about 5 holds full of glaze which is not great return on investment but about average for a well built ship. Your character will need some training though to be able to support the ship.

All of this is assuming you want to stay with HiSec mining, there's nothing wrong with that for a rookie. You'll probably get bored of it fairly quickly though and some of the fittings can be stripped and used on other ships to make it very inexpensive to transfer to a new boat.

Good Luck
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#20 - 2016-06-28 16:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Here's a solid (but not cheap) Venture build:

Venture, Hi Sec Venture (Ice Miner)

Ice Harvester Upgrade I

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender

Ice Mining Laser I
Ice Mining Laser I
Salvager I

Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Core Defense Field Purger I

Drones:
Hobgoblin I x2

Used in HiSec for ICE. Can be modified with cloak and Gas Mining for WH work. Can swap out Lasers and Upgrade for roam rock mining. Salvager allows to fully salvage dead rats and opportunity salvaging but once this has lower utility for you, you can swap in a Prototype Cloaking device and start mining riskier areas, perhaps NullSec if you really want to get out there quick, but normally you'd be in a good corp by then or really like risky mining and go for WormHole Gas mining.

This ship costs less than 1/5th of what a Procurer does and is more mobile. It's not a dime a dozen Venture fit so it can actually survive some of the nastier HiSec rat encounters easily. It would give you enough time to escape a gank ship if you are watching your Overview. By the way, turn up your WARP SOUND volume to maximum. If you hear someone warp in, immediately check your Overview. If you see a Destroyer on it... leave. A frigate won't really be strong enough to kill you before Concord arrives. A Cruiser would likely have no interest in dying to take you down, even carrying White Glaze.

The ship would pay for itself in about 5 holds full of glaze which is not great return on investment but about average for a well built ship. Your character will need some training though to be able to support the ship.

All of this is assuming you want to stay with HiSec mining, there's nothing wrong with that for a rookie. You'll probably get bored of it fairly quickly though and some of the fittings can be stripped and used on other ships to make it very inexpensive to transfer to a new boat.

Good Luck


I only really do gas mining, so I'm speaking from an "if/when you start ninja mining in LS/WHs/NS" point of view.

If you decide to leave HS, take a venture (or prospect, one of my favorite ships in the game), carry a cloak and/or probe launcher instead of the salvager, and drop the adaptive invulnerability field for an afterburner.

Dual prop mod venture/prospect has saved me a few times.
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