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Dev Blog: Bidding Farewell to the In-game Browser

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Sered Woollahra
No Fixed Abode
Solyaris Chtonium
#141 - 2016-06-20 22:12:25 UTC
@CCP FoxFour a few people have asked about an option to use a locally installed browser as in game browser but I don't think I have seen any responses to that. Is it something you see as feasible or not?

Second, the existing Third Parties Policies documentation on overlays mentions 'unfair advantage' and other, rather (out of necessity) vague language. Some things are not explicity allowed but condoned, unless they give you an 'unfair advantage' et cetera. It is not inconceivable that, one day, someone using an in game overlay browser has an advantage over someone who has to alt-tab out of game. Would that be considered 'unfair'? If CCP actively pushes us towards overlays for internet browsing, you may want to check up on your existing third party policies and verify whether they still fit the new situation.

From a security perspective, I understand why you are removing the IGB, but I have to say that having to depend on overlays that are technically unsupported and carry some 'legal' ambiguity on whether they are allowed under certain circumstances, doesn't feel very comfortable to me. I'd rather have an embedded chrome or firefox browser.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#142 - 2016-06-20 22:19:22 UTC
Sered Woollahra wrote:
@CCP FoxFour a few people have asked about an option to use a locally installed browser as in game browser but I don't think I have seen any responses to that. Is it something you see as feasible or not?


That isn't really a simple task unfortunately.

Sered Woollahra wrote:
Second, the existing Third Parties Policies documentation on overlays mentions 'unfair advantage' and other, rather (out of necessity) vague language. Some things are not explicity allowed but condoned, unless they give you an 'unfair advantage' et cetera. It is not inconceivable that, one day, someone using an in game overlay browser has an advantage over someone who has to alt-tab out of game. Would that be considered 'unfair'? If CCP actively pushes us towards overlays for internet browsing, you may want to check up on your existing third party policies and verify whether they still fit the new situation.


Not going to speak for the security team, I will however pass this along to them. When I talked to them about this they said browsers in an overlay were perfectly allowed. As with policy changes in the past if they happen notice will be given.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Jonathan Wolf
Doomheim
#143 - 2016-06-20 22:21:28 UTC
Dex Cordell wrote:

saved fits...the 200 piece cap of personal fittings is starting to get insufficient, and it forces me to use external tools for no apparent valid reason, EFT ftw. havent gotten to suggest the cap removed in the forums yet, thanks for reminding me.

I have four options I use to get around the fittings cap:

1. Mailing lists. You have a mailing list that you and your alts can subscribe to that have different fits in the welcome mail. You can create many, many mailing lists to cover a wide variety of fits, being as general or as granular as you'd like. The big downside to this is that it can make it pretty obvious who your characters are if you have all of them subscribed to the mailing list. To get around this...

2. Private chat channels. You can set up a private chat channel, whose only operator is your Out-of-corp hauler or other char who doesn't interact with other groups' API's. As with mailing lists, you can set up multiple channels, and as you need fits, you can join that channel, grab the fits you need, and then leave (don't stick around, as I'm not sure if it's possible to see which channels you're in but not the mod of via the API; I know for certain it's possible to see channels you do mod in). If that isn't an option for you, there's always...

3. Have a character or corp whose bios have a variety of fits that you regularly use. These characters / corps should not be associated with your in-corp characters at all, and should be a few degrees removed from actually doing anything related to your known chars. So long as you aren't interacting with them beyond logging them in to update fits or to simply view them (do not add them as contacts), it should be virtually impossible to associate these characters with yourself. If even that isn't an option...

4. Use the in-game note pad. This is, without a doubt, the worst possible choice, simply because you can't use the fits across your different characters. If you only have a single character, that isn't such a big problem, but for many people, that would be a deal-breaker. The in-game notepad provides quite a bit of space to add fits, and with the ability to add folders, you can make things fairly granular.

Anyway, is there anyone (CCP, or one of the CSM, perhaps?) who could clarify about channels in API visibility? Is it possible to see any channel you're in, or can you only see on the API which channels you own or are an operator in? That would make things quite a bit easier for me, at least, and probably others, as well.
Cismet
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#144 - 2016-06-20 22:21:56 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
The overlays that I just stated are inadequate? Is there a reason why CCP cannot manage to maintain an IGB while other game developers can?

I'm struggling to think of examples for this, other than the Steam in-game browser, and their development situation isn't really analogous to ours.


Other than Secret World, which makes a big deal of using its IGB to solve its puzzles on websites setup by the devs for the purpose? There are probably plenty of others, but Secret World was the main one I played due to the nature of how integrated it was with the gameplay itself. Much like the IGB in eve. The difference is that the developers of Secret World intended it, whereas in Eve, the integration is player-driven, something CCP purports to hold higher than any other kind of gameplay.

The problem is that your arguments for its removal are facetious at best:

You're a games developer - Yes, and the IGB is a useful tool in your game and therefore worthy of the development time. If you were talking about the rubbish third person walking around a station I'd agree with you, it has no place in the game and no use, by all means cut it. The IGB gets a lot of legitimate use for so many different things.

Alt-Tab out is a flippant response and there are so many times where that just isn't appropriate or wise, not being able to keep an eye on the overlay/D-Scan etc. whilst alt-tabbed makes that impractical, especially for wormholes where it's dangerous enough and you have to keep eyes on scanners etc.

When this was first proposed someone from CCP threw out a flippant comment about many people having multiple monitors. That particular comment is probably the greatest example of the way CCP view their customers. Bottomless money pits. Some of us have no room or money for a second monitor and that kind of elitist comment is just about the worst thing you can say.

On the previous thread for this when it was first proposed, there were many many protests at the removal of the IGB, CCP addressed almost none, except as above. I'd have more respect if you were at least honest and just stated you couldn't be bothered to develop it any more, at least that would have had the ring of truth to it. If you refuse to support an IGB, you can't then suggest other pieces of third party software that you decline to support, which themselves may come with their own security risks.
Lt Shard
Team Pizza
Good at this Game
#145 - 2016-06-20 22:22:33 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

That isn't really a simple task unfortunately.


Doesn't mean you cant try.
Kalpel
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#146 - 2016-06-20 22:26:34 UTC
CCP Logibro wrote:
It's been limping along for a while, but it's finally time to say au revoir to the In-game Browser. Read more details on why we're putting it out to pasture and how we'll handle URLs in the client in the future in this dev blog by CCP FoxFour.



So CCP puts the work load on the customers to find a "reliable" overlay, Surely this will help keep the subscriptions rolling in yes?

The number one rule in MMORPG development should be "removing content from the game is never a good thing" and this rule should be tattooed on every developers forehead in bold font, so that each and every member of a development team never forgets it while in meetings to discus future game updates and content, LOL!

You failed to target nothing! ≡v≡ online ... (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#147 - 2016-06-20 22:30:00 UTC
Cismet wrote:
I'd have more respect if you were at least honest and just stated you couldn't be bothered to develop it any more, at least that would have had the ring of truth to it.


I'm pretty sure that's exactly the one and only reason they gave for shutting it down.

KB

Dum Spiro Spero
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#148 - 2016-06-20 22:31:09 UTC
Kalpel wrote:
CCP Logibro wrote:
It's been limping along for a while, but it's finally time to say au revoir to the In-game Browser. Read more details on why we're putting it out to pasture and how we'll handle URLs in the client in the future in this dev blog by CCP FoxFour.



So CCP puts the work load on the customers to find a "reliable" overlay, Surely this will help keep the subscriptions rolling in yes?

The number one rule in MMORPG development should be "removing content from the game is never a good thing" and this rule should be tattooed on every developers forehead in bold font, so that each and every member of a development team never forgets it while in meetings to discus future game updates and content, LOL!


The IGB isn't "content."

Dum Spiro Spero
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#149 - 2016-06-20 22:32:39 UTC
Lt Shard wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

That isn't really a simple task unfortunately.


Doesn't mean you cant try.


True, but it is a matter of prioritization. So many things we want to do and a limited number of devs.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Lt Shard
Team Pizza
Good at this Game
#150 - 2016-06-20 22:33:19 UTC
KaarBaak wrote:

The IGB isn't "content."


Its a feature, which still falls under his argument.
Lt Shard
Team Pizza
Good at this Game
#151 - 2016-06-20 22:34:15 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Lt Shard wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

That isn't really a simple task unfortunately.


Doesn't mean you cant try.


True, but it is a matter of prioritization. So many things we want to do and a limited number of devs.



Lt Shard wrote:
Funding VR only pay2win niche games is not the way to make cash, making a good game what you have already established for years better is the way to go. If you keep pulling features like this you are only going to make it awful for older players too, and keep in mind your new player retention is ****.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#152 - 2016-06-20 22:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Kalpel wrote:
So CCP puts the work load on the customers to find a "reliable" overlay

Exactly my concern.
I can understand reasons for removing IGB, but make a proper workaround. Yes, you - CCP. Dont put this burden on our shoulders.
Alan Greenspud
State War Academy
Caldari State
#153 - 2016-06-20 22:45:05 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Siggy just needs to update to use the CREST way of tracking and they will be fine. If they choose not to, well good thing there are other WH mapping choices out there.


This comment is everything that is wrong with CCP today. You simply do not care about the work and effort you customers have put into tools to support your game, and you just poop on them because it serves your purpose.

Marsha Mallow
#154 - 2016-06-20 22:48:19 UTC
Not quite sure what all the outrage is about. The IGB has been slated for removal for years. At least with a staggered announcement like this people have time to adapt, whether that be switching to an overlay, changing their preferred ingame tools (or redeveloping them via Crest) or getting set up with an additional monitor. If it's not stable and will require excessive resources to maintain best can it asap before users start having serious problems. It's always been a bit flimsy anyway without flash.

Tbf, I've just bought a 4k monitor (\o/) so windowed mode will be fine and for the first time now have 2 monitors, so maybe I'm in a reasonably good position to deal with this. But ever since concerns were raised about the IGB I've been trying to cut down using it, and once you get used to pretending it's not there you find alternate habits. Either way, thanks for the info about overlays, will test Overwolf and Evolve and see if it's better than windowed. Another cheaper option for those who can't afford a second monitor but prefer to have a browser open continuously might be to set up a small tablet on a stand, or if your phone is big enough just use that.

Those reliant on ingame browser tools could do with poking the developers of those direct to see what their plans are, or have them start a centralized discussion so people can monitor it. They can't have been unaware this change was due so might have new stuff in the pipeline via crest.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Lt Shard
Team Pizza
Good at this Game
#155 - 2016-06-20 22:50:12 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Not quite sure what all the outrage is about.


People who use the IGB upset when a feature is unnecessarily removed instead of ccp managing their development properly?
Made NChina
Losing Citadel in WH Ltd.
#156 - 2016-06-20 22:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Made NChina
CCP Logibro wrote:
It's been limping along for a while, but it's finally time to say au revoir to the In-game Browser. Read more details on why we're putting it out to pasture and how we'll handle URLs in the client in the future in this dev blog by CCP FoxFour.


..............

You guy don't even know how much i hate you !!

How many website will i have to be rebuild because of you !! Lots of tools had been
made arround that IGB, we're probably not the only ones. Your talking about CREST
and a lot of people think it will be fine. BUT NO !! We'll have to rebuild our website
arround that thing.... Its a game, we don't want to spend time rebuilding tools that
are already working great !

The Browser is fine like it is at the moment.

Why don't u let player use old browser or redirection has an option !!

...............
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#157 - 2016-06-20 22:53:22 UTC
Alan Greenspud wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Siggy just needs to update to use the CREST way of tracking and they will be fine. If they choose not to, well good thing there are other WH mapping choices out there.


This comment is everything that is wrong with CCP today. You simply do not care about the work and effort you customers have put into tools to support your game, and you just poop on them because it serves your purpose.


I'm not sure you understand who you're talking to. I really don't want to be rude so instead of trying to tell you how much I care I will suggest you go talk to any active third-party developer and ask them what they think of me. I know a few are a little annoyed with me and a few of the things I have done but I don't doubt they will all agree I care a HUGE amount about them and the work they do. Hell even right now a few of them are going to be upset they only have three months to do the work... but they still know how much I care. So please, don't give me this "CCP doesn't care" crap because it is complete garbage.

That is just my comment in response to you thinking I don't care... for the sake of not being a complete ******* I am going to not respond to how you think I treat third-party devs.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
SyntaxPD
PowerDucks
PowerDucks Alliance
#158 - 2016-06-20 22:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: SyntaxPD
Shame on you, CCP, for not being able to keep features.
Shame on you, CCP, for not being able to keep online even with latest updates?

Do you still claim, that your updates are successful ?
Look at Apocrypha age, learn something from your predecesors finally!
Lt Shard
Team Pizza
Good at this Game
#159 - 2016-06-20 22:58:48 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
So please, don't give me this "CCP doesn't care" crap because it is complete garbage.


I too, remember Incarna, and leaked Hilmar letters.

Smile
Made NChina
Losing Citadel in WH Ltd.
#160 - 2016-06-20 23:00:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Made NChina
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Alan Greenspud wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Siggy just needs to update to use the CREST way of tracking and they will be fine. If they choose not to, well good thing there are other WH mapping choices out there.


This comment is everything that is wrong with CCP today. You simply do not care about the work and effort you customers have put into tools to support your game, and you just poop on them because it serves your purpose.


I'm not sure you understand who you're talking to. I really don't want to be rude so instead of trying to tell you how much I care I will suggest you go talk to any active third-party developer and ask them what they think of me. I know a few are a little annoyed with me and a few of the things I have done but I don't doubt they will all agree I care a HUGE amount about them and the work they do. Hell even right now a few of them are going to be upset they only have three months to do the work... but they still know how much I care. So please, don't give me this "CCP doesn't care" crap because it is complete garbage.

That is just my comment in response to you thinking I don't care... for the sake of not being a complete ******* I am going to not respond to how you think I treat third-party devs.


........

Useless work because of an useless change..... That is what third party dev are thinking....
three months to do the work ... Three Months for remaking what is already working at the moment !!

That is what we call, losing time for nothing...

........


Why don't you let player use old browser or redirection has an option !!