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Daily Opportunities!

Author
Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development
AddictClan
#101 - 2016-06-17 23:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Neadayan Drakhon
Teckos Pech wrote:
Utility is subjective. I like eating pho (a Vietnamese soup) with tripe, tendon, as well as brisket and eye round beef slices. You might look at that and think "Yuck." Clearly I am getting utility from eating such a bowl of pho whereas you'd prefer one without the tripe and tendon. There is no "objective" with respect to utility.

You are quite simply wrong. Objectively wrong in fact. Oh the irony.


I disagree, you can look at utility objectively.

We're arguing semantics now, which isn't the point of this discussion.

Objectively there is nothing in this that is a diminishing return (or utility if you accept that utility can be view objectively)

Subjectively it might seem like you're getting less of an effect if you're only looking at whether or not you're immediately completing a skill or knocking out several low ranks of skills. However, even subjectively, it can feel like the same amount of time shaved off your training queue, whether you get an immediate rankup of a skill or not (which is in line with the objective observations).
MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
Warclone Initiative
#102 - 2016-06-18 15:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: MidnightWyvern
Ix Method wrote:
Revis Owen wrote:
Eve is marketed as a place where players generate the content among themselves. Dailies and all other NPC-based content are an abomination and should be killed with fire.

Yeah man down with stuff that encourages undocking and isn't player created. **** it, stations, feel the warmth of our torches. Gates, gaaaaaaaahhhh, be gone! Stars, no, sodoff. Infact WHERE THE HELL DOES CAP COME FROM!?>!?! Get rid of that monstrosity, it's not player created. I just want a dark area I can fly around in and hopefully bump into someone bored enough to do the same.

Or maybe I'm wrong and it's just a little bit of SP that doesn't really matter.

These people also seem to imply that there have never before been NPC driven events that the majority of players enjoyed and have even posted about bringing them back someday.

I guess that also means the Pre-Incursion Live Events that had their own round-table at FanFest that year were also disgusting trash that should never happen again because they were artificial creations of CCP rather than organic player content.

You know, do any of these whiners realize that NPC content has always been in the game whether they participate in it or not? You kind of need a mix of content to appeal to different people or your game population is going to start looking pretty small.

Anyone remember The Division? As soon as you complete the story content all that's left is the Dark Zone sandbox and killing random NPC spawns and other players for loot. Nowadays that game is a ghost town compared to when it launched because there's nothing to do but wander around and collect loot drops. The world feels empty and dead.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2016-06-18 21:47:09 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I pretty much agree with this. Of course I can see how Daily Objectives giving skillpoint rewards is good for brand new players. I think there should be a cut-off point set on receiving the free skillpoints.


There is a cutoff point. It's diminishing returns. 10,000 SP to a 1.5 Million SP toon is a higher percentage gain in SP total than the same amount to a 50 Million SP toon.

It's not diminishing returns, 10k SP is 10k SP; diminishing returns would be like the injectors, where you actually get less SP rewarded when you have a higher starting SP.


It's diminishing relative to your total SP count. It's more useful to a new player training levels 1-3 than an experienced player training in 4-5's. 10K SP will buy off a lot of level 1's right away and some level 2's. It will knock the snot out of level 3's. Level 4's is a bonus but not earth shattering and level 5's it's hardly a tick on the clock. It also matters what the multiplier of the skill is too.

The deprecation (diminishing return) is already built into the skill system is what I was trying to say. It is relative to total SP/Training on the toon.

You and all the others who think the Daily skill point rewards has diminishing returns couldn't be more wrong even if you tried. Doesn't matter if a player has 5 mill sp's or 50 mill sp's. Training time is the same for both. The only aspects to affect that time is Attribute Implants and Neural Remaps.

Also thinking that experienced players only have level 4-5 skills to train is completely wrong as well. I have over 150 mill sp's and there's still a lot of skills I haven't started training.

These new recent additions to the game - Daily Objective and Skillpoint Injectors - bypasses the Training time which is what this game was founded on. Now it's all about instant gratification. Might as well just remove all skills and training queue and just have all characters able to do everything right from the start.

Then it won't matter if players are new or old, all characters can immediately jump into a Battleship, Dread or Carrier, do some PvP / PvE in Nullsec space and basically feel like they've won the game, all within the first month. Course then they'll get bored and go to another game due to accomplishing everything worth doing in this game.

Oh wait, players are already doing that.


DMC
Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development
AddictClan
#104 - 2016-06-18 22:02:52 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
These new recent additions to the game - Daily Objective and Skillpoint Injectors - bypasses the Training time which is what this game was founded on. Now it's all about instant gratification.

Yep, skill trading is one of the worst things CCP has ever done. Since the introduction of skill trading there are people who maintain an ever expanding number of alts that just train and extract, so its not even that the SP being traded is simply being shuffled around from existing characters, but many new characters made just to generate more SP, that will do nothing but generate more SP to feed into the market.

Passive training should be the only way to gain SP.
Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
#105 - 2016-06-19 17:12:31 UTC
Satchel Darkmatter wrote:
Anything that makes this game better for new players will NEVER be a bad thing even if the old timers think it will.


As a veteran player this is disturbing to me. I do not think that the SP distance between older and newer players should be kept - and I don't believe, most other veterans do. I would easily agree that new players should get a free 20% bonus (no matter if they are online or not) on skill training (maybe a decreasing bonus over time) to close the gap between new and old players a bit and allow new players to catch up in skill faster.

But the daily opportunities neither solve this problem (because they are accessible to everyone, new and old players, just keeping the distance in SP the same) nor is it their purpose to help new players more than old players. Their purpose is to encourage or force players to login daily. But what kind of encouragement is that? Logging in, hop into a ship, fly to a belt, shoot a 3k ISK frig and logoff? The game is supposed to provide content so that players login because they want to play and have fun. And also to not login because they have a bad day or just no time. Now they are punished if they don't or feel forced to do so although they don't want to play today. This can be more annoying to new players because they really want to get the basic skills up and feel particularly bad when they can't login a day or two.

I doubt that the current system of accumulating skill is friendlier to new players: Advanced players know better how to make ISK and have more resources to earn ISK to possibly buy skill injectors and get even more ahead in skill or get ahead in trained alts. They have the ISK to buy +5 implants, they are more often training long running skills to level 5, allowing them to stay longer in the optimal attribute pair before they can remap their attributes and they might even have old bonus remaps.

I would have prefered if skill training had been made even more passive as it was before skill injectors: Remove attribute implants, remove neural attributes on skills and character entirely, remove neural remaps, raise skill training speed generally (to, for example, the level of having optimal attributes and +4 implants) and give new players a general passive - not a "you must shoot a frig" - skill training speed bonus that decreases over time.

With skill injectors and dailies, imo, they have touched the holy grail, that skill was the only thing that ISK - and therefore skill itself which favors actually advanced players over newbies - cannot buy. It allowed players to login to actually play the game and not to login to do something they possibly don't want to do (running utterly mechanical dailies or make ISK for skill injectors) just to be able to play the game at some point later. It's like the return of the hated learning skills in new clothes, something you just have to do to be competitive but with no value on its own. Being able to simply ignore skill training (aside from choosing which skill you want to train), because it always runs automatically and there is no way to make it faster or slower, had the big benefit that you could care about the game content you like or be absent a few days without feeling forced, cheated or punished.

Looking into various ingame channels I have subscribed to I see a whole lot of discussion about skill injectors, things like "I have to run 50 missions this week...", "I have to run 30 hours incursions this week...", "I must make 3 bil this week...", etc., etc. "...to bring my alt number 7 to logi 5", etc., etc. It just feeds the alteritis and advantage of old players more than it helps new players.

Of course, there is still a conflict between new and old players that doesn't go away. For new players skills matter a lot and they welcome everything that speeds skill training up because skills open access to the various contents and features of the game they don't know or haven't explored yet. Over time the value of skills decreases, you know most features and what is most interesting and exciting is the addition of new content - things like a new Apocrypha expansion or whatever adds real content to the game, not development time wasted into weird shoot-a-frig-for-skillpoints-"opportunities".

I know, that's all no big problem for the very regular players who are online every day and focus on PVE anyway. They earn the 10000 SP basically for free. For occasional and less addicted players who are nonetheless paying the same money or PLEXes it is just annoying to fall behind in skill points compared to others and especially to those who do the craziness of login-shoot-logoff. That's very different to the advance a regular player has because he gains more experience by daily play and which can easily be accepted by an occasional player.

TLDR: I'm not against skill point boni for new players. But either give them out for free or not at all. Skills are a means of playing and I don't like much that they partially have been turned into a purpose.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#106 - 2016-06-19 23:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Satchel Darkmatter wrote:
ccp updates the new player experience and gets rid of the old tutorial

Old players moan that its stupid, it was fine the way it was cos they got through it ( wrong it wasn't fine, it wasn't ever fine)
While the the old style tutorial system isn't great, it works for some people and is in many ways superior to the opportunities system that newbies get stuck with.

The opportunities tutorials seem to create confusion and frustration for many, the older players who regularly help in NCQA are constantly pointing newbies towards the old style tutorial because they can't make head nor tail of what they're presented with.


As for the dailies, in my opinion it's another nail in the coffin for Eve, CCP seem to be intent on trying to turn it into just another MMO.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2016-06-20 01:05:04 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Satchel Darkmatter wrote:
ccp updates the new player experience and gets rid of the old tutorial

Old players moan that its stupid, it was fine the way it was cos they got through it ( wrong it wasn't fine, it wasn't ever fine)
While the the old style tutorial system isn't great, it works for some people and is in many ways superior to the opportunities system that newbies get stuck with.

The opportunities tutorials seem to create confusion and frustration for many, the older players who regularly help in NCQA are constantly pointing newbies towards the old style tutorial because they can't make head nor tail of what they're presented with.


As for the dailies, in my opinion it's another nail in the coffin for Eve, CCP seem to be intent on trying to turn it into just another MMO.

Agree 100%.

Don't know what CCP has been smoking lately but I want some.



DMC
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
Apocalypse Now.
#108 - 2016-06-20 16:01:00 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
You and all the others who think the Daily skill point rewards has diminishing returns couldn't be more wrong even if you tried. Doesn't matter if a player has 5 mill sp's or 50 mill sp's. Training time is the same for both. The only aspects to affect that time is Attribute Implants and Neural Remaps.


Well, I fully understand and appreciate WHAT you are trying to say but you are either intentionally ignoring my point or aren't understanding the level time training effect. Yes, it's the same. Yes, you have 10K more points to put to it, but that 10K has less power against a Level 4 skill trying to go to a Level 5 skill than it does a Level 0 going to a Level 1. That's where the loss is. So for newer toons working on those Level 1 & Level 2 skills, SP can be a big time saver. Taking a day off of a 10 day training skill time and making it 9 is a bonus and worthwhile but those same points over the same 9 days could've bought you 9 level 1-2 skills. Thus the relative 'loss' between new toons/skills versus experienced toons/skills.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Also thinking that experienced players only have level 4-5 skills to train is completely wrong as well. I have over 150 mill sp's and there's still a lot of skills I haven't started training.


I never said that experienced toons only train Level 4's, they are the only ones likely to do so because new toons don't really have the time or ability to get up their for at least several weeks. So relatively speaking, who is going to be training advanced skills more with the 10K SP's? New or old toons?

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
These new recent additions to the game - Daily Objective and Skillpoint Injectors - bypasses the Training time which is what this game was founded on. Now it's all about instant gratification. Might as well just remove all skills and training queue and just have all characters able to do everything right from the start.


I feel ^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^ is the real issue you have with the new SP modifications. By looking at EVE this way, I feel you've stuck yourself and EVE in a box. If you change your perspective a little bit, open up to the idea that EVE doesn't have to be what it 'was' X length of time ago, and maybe adopt a more new player view, you might see why CCP is doing what they are doing. It's not about what they are smoking, but about where they see the game a decade from now.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Then it won't matter if players are new or old, all characters can immediately jump into a Battleship, Dread or Carrier, do some PvP / PvE in Nullsec space and basically feel like they've won the game, all within the first month. Course then they'll get bored and go to another game due to accomplishing everything worth doing in this game.


Here we'll have to agree to disagree. There is so much to do in EVE, that even if you had tens of thousands of dollars invested in it, and a MAX skill toon with one of every ship, all you've done is down all the initial barriers to doing everything in the game. Yes, you lose all that fun of doing all those challenges, but some people don't like to do that, not me, I do things the hard way because I like the challenges. However, that Max skill/ship character, doesn't have a max skill player behind the keyboard and while we've already had this discussion over Skill Injectors, that player still has an entire universe of New Eden to conquer, and if they can do that in less than 2 years, I'd be surprised. You can never WIN EVE, only play it.

The only players I'm seeing leaving like this are the vets that are unable to adjust their perceptions and focus on what EVE can be and not what it was. That's actually normal, change is very hard. Can it kill EVE for the vets, certainly, but new players aren't burdened by what it was so it's far easier for them to accept it and move on. I don't begrudge your feelings DMC, and those of other vets like you. I totally understand. You have to do what you have to do. You should always have fun and if this kills it for you, then you need to vote with your wallet, like Tippia is doing.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#109 - 2016-06-21 00:29:45 UTC
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Utility is subjective. I like eating pho (a Vietnamese soup) with tripe, tendon, as well as brisket and eye round beef slices. You might look at that and think "Yuck." Clearly I am getting utility from eating such a bowl of pho whereas you'd prefer one without the tripe and tendon. There is no "objective" with respect to utility.

You are quite simply wrong. Objectively wrong in fact. Oh the irony.


I disagree, you can look at utility objectively.

We're arguing semantics now, which isn't the point of this discussion.

Objectively there is nothing in this that is a diminishing return (or utility if you accept that utility can be view objectively)

Subjectively it might seem like you're getting less of an effect if you're only looking at whether or not you're immediately completing a skill or knocking out several low ranks of skills. However, even subjectively, it can feel like the same amount of time shaved off your training queue, whether you get an immediate rankup of a skill or not (which is in line with the objective observations).


No.

People gave up on the notion that there is anything objective to utility around the time they started giving up on classical utilitarianism.

Now, utility, or more accurately a utility function, is a mathematical representation of preference orderings. Further, there is no unique utility function. In fact, utility functions are defined only up to a monotonic transformation--i.e. that they preserve the preference ordering.

If I say I get 1 "util" from dailies and another player says he gets 100....who gets more utility? Me or the other guy. What if all other things I derive utility form provide at most 1/100 utils, and the other player gets 99 utils from all other goods/services? In other words, inter-personal comparisons of utility are not possible. It is not possible because nobody can tell you what their utility function looks like beyond some very vague notions. For example, preferences are generally assumed to be transitive. That is if I prefer apples to pears and pears to grapes, I prefer apples to grapes. And if you prefer grapes to apples and apples to pears you are not some how wrong.

So, as a new player yes, I might have logged in more frequently to take advantage of dailies. Now...now I'm more likely to go fire up the iPad and re-watch Firefly or Walking Dead. Now I mainly log in to do stuff to other players--i.e. shoot them. Sometimes I log in to make ISK, but even that has become less common as I've acquired more ISK.

So yes, diminishing marginal utility. Think of it like eating a pizza. When you first get it, that first slice is awesome. However, once you've downed half the pie....that next piece doesn't look nearly so good.

Diminishing marginal utility.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#110 - 2016-06-21 00:31:03 UTC
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
These new recent additions to the game - Daily Objective and Skillpoint Injectors - bypasses the Training time which is what this game was founded on. Now it's all about instant gratification.

Yep, skill trading is one of the worst things CCP has ever done. Since the introduction of skill trading there are people who maintain an ever expanding number of alts that just train and extract, so its not even that the SP being traded is simply being shuffled around from existing characters, but many new characters made just to generate more SP, that will do nothing but generate more SP to feed into the market.

Passive training should be the only way to gain SP.


Please elucidate how this ever expanding pool of alts works.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development
AddictClan
#111 - 2016-06-21 01:32:38 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
These new recent additions to the game - Daily Objective and Skillpoint Injectors - bypasses the Training time which is what this game was founded on. Now it's all about instant gratification.

Yep, skill trading is one of the worst things CCP has ever done. Since the introduction of skill trading there are people who maintain an ever expanding number of alts that just train and extract, so its not even that the SP being traded is simply being shuffled around from existing characters, but many new characters made just to generate more SP, that will do nothing but generate more SP to feed into the market.

Passive training should be the only way to gain SP.


Please elucidate how this ever expanding pool of alts works.

Alt accounts training and extracting on a regular basis can be done profitably, this profit can be funneled into operating more accounts to do this, depending on how one wants to use their profit margins, if it was not profitable to have alts train and extract SP to sell, there would be no real injector market. At some point a player would likely reach a threshold of how many alts they could tolerate running vs how much isk it was bringing in, but given that it is a profitable market a player could keep expanding the pool of alts. Yes eventually you would have market saturation and prices would drop, and perhaps the injector market is already close to saturation and the margins are minimal, I don't know, I have never used an extractor or injector nor do I ever intend to. Perhaps I unintentionally implied an infinite expansion, this of course would not be the case. Real cash could conceivably allow for a player to go beyond whatever purely isk balance point, and there might even be some who've done that.

My previous post was based on hearing from some other players who were doing alt farms at some level.
Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development
AddictClan
#112 - 2016-06-21 01:59:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Neadayan Drakhon
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Yes, it's the same. Yes, you have 10K more points to put to it, but that 10K has less power against a Level 4 skill trying to go to a Level 5 skill than it does a Level 0 going to a Level 1. That's where the loss is. So for newer toons working on those Level 1 & Level 2 skills, SP can be a big time saver. Taking a day off of a 10 day training skill time and making it 9 is a bonus and worthwhile but those same points over the same 9 days could've bought you 9 level 1-2 skills. Thus the relative 'loss' between new toons/skills versus experienced toons/skills.

Wrong. You gain the same amount of SP from the daily no matter what, this translates into a saved amount of training time that can vary a bit depending on what skill you're applying it to versus your current attribute map and implants. It gets you the same amount of time toward whatever skill plan you have going whether its knocking out a couple of low ranks of low tier skills or a drop in the pool of a rank 5 high tier skill. There is absolutely *nothing* diminishing about this reward.

Pandora Carrollon wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
These new recent additions to the game - Daily Objective and Skillpoint Injectors - bypasses the Training time which is what this game was founded on. Now it's all about instant gratification. Might as well just remove all skills and training queue and just have all characters able to do everything right from the start.


I feel ^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^ is the real issue you have with the new SP modifications. By looking at EVE this way, I feel you've stuck yourself and EVE in a box. If you change your perspective a little bit, open up to the idea that EVE doesn't have to be what it 'was' X length of time ago, and maybe adopt a more new player view, you might see why CCP is doing what they are doing. It's not about what they are smoking, but about where they see the game a decade from now.

I can't speak for DMC, but the fact that dailies and injectors bypass passive training are indeed my main issues with them. I freely admit that I hate the idea of changing the core concept of passive training in this game. I think its a terrible idea to allow players to buy SP and have no interest in changing that viewpoint just because it might attract a few new players from other games. If that instant gratification is what draws them to EVE I'd rather they not play EVE. EVE was not, and should not (though sadly currently is) about instant gratification and pay-to-win. (inb4 character trading, I don't care for that either, but it's nearly impossible to eliminate, which is why CCP simply made it legit for isk only) I'll take the potentially smaller but likely more dedicated player base that has the patience for the passive training system and everything else in the game that requires planning and thought. CCP used to think that way, sadly they've decided that money is all important and lost all integrity.

Pandora Carrollon wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Then it won't matter if players are new or old, all characters can immediately jump into a Battleship, Dread or Carrier, do some PvP / PvE in Nullsec space and basically feel like they've won the game, all within the first month. Course then they'll get bored and go to another game due to accomplishing everything worth doing in this game.


Here we'll have to agree to disagree. There is so much to do in EVE, that even if you had tens of thousands of dollars invested in it, and a MAX skill toon with one of every ship, all you've done is down all the initial barriers to doing everything in the game. Yes, you lose all that fun of doing all those challenges, but some people don't like to do that, not me, I do things the hard way because I like the challenges. However, that Max skill/ship character, doesn't have a max skill player behind the keyboard and while we've already had this discussion over Skill Injectors, that player still has an entire universe of New Eden to conquer, and if they can do that in less than 2 years, I'd be surprised. You can never WIN EVE, only play it.

The only players I'm seeing leaving like this are the vets that are unable to adjust their perceptions and focus on what EVE can be and not what it was. That's actually normal, change is very hard. Can it kill EVE for the vets, certainly, but new players aren't burdened by what it was so it's far easier for them to accept it and move on. I don't begrudge your feelings DMC, and those of other vets like you. I totally understand. You have to do what you have to do. You should always have fun and if this kills it for you, then you need to vote with your wallet, like Tippia is doing.

I'll agree with you to an extent - buying up all the SP to do everything doesn't automatically mean you've done everything, you do still have to then do the things. But I will agree with DMC partially too, in that once the barriers are down players might go and try a handful of things they can do, or maybe even close to all of them (and there's a lot...) they're likely to get bored of it quicker, as the process of getting there meant nothing. Sure to some players passive training might mean nothing more than an annoying wait, I say "bah" - the anticipation makes it so much more fun when you get to it.


Only responded to some parts of the post partially due to quoting limits.
Tam Arai
Mi Pen Rai
#113 - 2016-06-21 18:01:29 UTC
i havent bought or sold any skill injectors/ extractors- 650m for 300000 skill points doesnt seem worthwhile

i have been doing the dailies often- before i never looked at dens, hideaways etc but in the last 2 days, ive had 2 escalatons from those crappy sites earning me a gila bpc, pith c type invuln + 50m loot. (approx 500m loot total) without dailies i wouldnt have them so theyre working for me.

by next week ill have my 300000 skillpoints for free too
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#114 - 2016-06-21 19:35:43 UTC
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
These new recent additions to the game - Daily Objective and Skillpoint Injectors - bypasses the Training time which is what this game was founded on. Now it's all about instant gratification.

Yep, skill trading is one of the worst things CCP has ever done. Since the introduction of skill trading there are people who maintain an ever expanding number of alts that just train and extract, so its not even that the SP being traded is simply being shuffled around from existing characters, but many new characters made just to generate more SP, that will do nothing but generate more SP to feed into the market.

Passive training should be the only way to gain SP.


Please elucidate how this ever expanding pool of alts works.

Alt accounts training and extracting on a regular basis can be done profitably, this profit can be funneled into operating more accounts to do this, depending on how one wants to use their profit margins, if it was not profitable to have alts train and extract SP to sell, there would be no real injector market. At some point a player would likely reach a threshold of how many alts they could tolerate running vs how much isk it was bringing in, but given that it is a profitable market a player could keep expanding the pool of alts. Yes eventually you would have market saturation and prices would drop, and perhaps the injector market is already close to saturation and the margins are minimal, I don't know, I have never used an extractor or injector nor do I ever intend to. Perhaps I unintentionally implied an infinite expansion, this of course would not be the case. Real cash could conceivably allow for a player to go beyond whatever purely isk balance point, and there might even be some who've done that.

My previous post was based on hearing from some other players who were doing alt farms at some level.


I have the following costs:

Skill Extractors: 600,000,000
PLEX: 900,000,000
Total Costs: 1,500,000,000
Skill Injector Revenues: 1,950,000,000
Net Profits after PLEXing the SP Farming Alt: 450,000,000

Yes, SP farming can be “profitable”. You can use it to generate ISK. However, one cannot have an ever expanding pool of alts since the accounting profits are not sufficient to create another account. I’d have to wait about 2 months and then I’d have enough to train for 1 month. Further, this ignores all the benefits that a second account could provide….if the character(s) on that account was(were) training. And I am leaving out taxes as well.

But there is a catch here. The more this is done the more SP extractors will be hitting the market. Further, there will be a growing demand for PLEX. So PLEX prices could go up and SP extractor prices going down squeezing profit margins. There is not going to be an ever growing pool of SP farming alts. Right now, there is room for growth, but it will likely stabilize at a point where the profits are minimal.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#115 - 2016-06-21 20:08:56 UTC
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Yes, it's the same. Yes, you have 10K more points to put to it, but that 10K has less power against a Level 4 skill trying to go to a Level 5 skill than it does a Level 0 going to a Level 1. That's where the loss is. So for newer toons working on those Level 1 & Level 2 skills, SP can be a big time saver. Taking a day off of a 10 day training skill time and making it 9 is a bonus and worthwhile but those same points over the same 9 days could've bought you 9 level 1-2 skills. Thus the relative 'loss' between new toons/skills versus experienced toons/skills.

Wrong. You gain the same amount of SP from the daily no matter what, this translates into a saved amount of training time that can vary a bit depending on what skill you're applying it to versus your current attribute map and implants. It gets you the same amount of time toward whatever skill plan you have going whether its knocking out a couple of low ranks of low tier skills or a drop in the pool of a rank 5 high tier skill. There is absolutely *nothing* diminishing about this reward.


No, this is incorrect…again.

Suppose you have a box. You are given a 1x1x1 inch cube. Your box is 1x1x1 foot box. To fill it you need 1,728 cubes. Now, after you fill it I give you a box that needs 3,456 cubes to fill it. The daily allotment of 1 cube now will less efficacious at filling your new box. Yes, the daily amount is the same, but its effect is not.

This goes back, once again, to diminishing marginal utility. It isn’t the absolute value that matters, but the subjective value people place on it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development
AddictClan
#116 - 2016-06-21 21:05:31 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Yes, it's the same. Yes, you have 10K more points to put to it, but that 10K has less power against a Level 4 skill trying to go to a Level 5 skill than it does a Level 0 going to a Level 1. That's where the loss is. So for newer toons working on those Level 1 & Level 2 skills, SP can be a big time saver. Taking a day off of a 10 day training skill time and making it 9 is a bonus and worthwhile but those same points over the same 9 days could've bought you 9 level 1-2 skills. Thus the relative 'loss' between new toons/skills versus experienced toons/skills.

Wrong. You gain the same amount of SP from the daily no matter what, this translates into a saved amount of training time that can vary a bit depending on what skill you're applying it to versus your current attribute map and implants. It gets you the same amount of time toward whatever skill plan you have going whether its knocking out a couple of low ranks of low tier skills or a drop in the pool of a rank 5 high tier skill. There is absolutely *nothing* diminishing about this reward.


No, this is incorrect…again.

Suppose you have a box. You are given a 1x1x1 inch cube. Your box is 1x1x1 foot box. To fill it you need 1,728 cubes. Now, after you fill it I give you a box that needs 3,456 cubes to fill it. The daily allotment of 1 cube now will less efficacious at filling your new box. Yes, the daily amount is the same, but its effect is not.

This goes back, once again, to diminishing marginal utility. It isn’t the absolute value that matters, but the subjective value people place on it.

Again I'm talking about it objectively, you're talking subjectively.

Let me also say this then, in your terns, I personally find no diminishing marginal utility in this reward, I can apply the SP to whatever I please, whether it be knocking time off a long train, or knocking out 1 or more short trainings, any of which could be on my active queue (which will is based on my neural map) or outside of it if I want to put them toward something that is outside my current mapping. I find the same level of usefulness regardless of what I put those points on, and what I put them on depends on my priorities.

Any percieved diminishing marginal utility is entirely in the mind of the user.

Back to my point all along, that OBJECTIVELY, there is nothing diminishing about this reward. How you choose to use it has no relevance to the fact that it is not a diminishing return.

In any case, CCP needs to get rid of dailies and skill trading (though I don't honestly expect the latter).
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#117 - 2016-06-21 22:18:07 UTC
Just one more step in making EVE like WoW (or whatever generic MMO).

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#118 - 2016-06-21 22:29:04 UTC
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:

Again I'm talking about it objectively, you're talking subjectively.

Let me also say this then, in your terns, I personally find no diminishing marginal utility in this reward, I can apply the SP to whatever I please, whether it be knocking time off a long train, or knocking out 1 or more short trainings, any of which could be on my active queue (which will is based on my neural map) or outside of it if I want to put them toward something that is outside my current mapping. I find the same level of usefulness regardless of what I put those points on, and what I put them on depends on my priorities.

Any percieved diminishing marginal utility is entirely in the mind of the user.

Back to my point all along, that OBJECTIVELY, there is nothing diminishing about this reward. How you choose to use it has no relevance to the fact that it is not a diminishing return.

In any case, CCP needs to get rid of dailies and skill trading (though I don't honestly expect the latter).


I know you are talking "objectively" and you are wrong to do so.

Look, if I have 10 doughnuts and you start eating them, that first doughnut might be great. Then by the time you get to the 6th one you might not even want it. Objectively it is the same thing as you ate the first time. A doughnut. But your enjoyment is diminishing. That is the point of diminishing marginal utility. It can and almost surely does apply to dailies. Yes, everyone gets the same 10,000/day. In that regard there is no diminishing anything. But it is the utility/usefulness that is diminishing. A guy training a rank 1 skill who has 100,000 SP will likely get "more bang" for his daily than he will when he has 100 million SP and is working on a rank 12 skill. In the former case his overall SP went up 10%, in the latter it went up by 0.01%.

Yes, the diminishing marginal utility is "in the mind of the user" but that does not make it any less real. A player, who is new today will likely be more inclined to log in to get his daily than in 5 years when he goes...."meh" it's just 10,000 SP.


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Raker Plaude
Hell Too
Villore Accords
#119 - 2016-06-21 23:11:49 UTC
I understand a lot of the frustration and dislike of the dailies and I'm sure that if I was an older player who had spent years on the training of skills, I'd probably feel different.

However I'm only a 6 month old character, and I have used skill injectors. I don't think that it provided INSTANT GRATIFICATION nor do I think that it's going to reduce or diminish my enthusiasm of EvE one little bit.

I DO think though, that it has allowed me to go outside and play a bit more with my Corp mates rather than sitting in High Sec playpens trying to learn how to mine. I haven't got a huge amount of level 5 skills but by getting some of the ones that interested me up to level 4/5, I have been able to find things in New Eden that entertain and excite me.
One example is reprocessing. I would never have bothered reprocessing ores without having the required skills so I would never have found how much I like the Industry side of things (ok, that's kind of a lie, I was pretty sure that I would enjoy that regardless).

From everything that I've seen and read it looks like the majority of the SP extractor/injector additions mainly just redistribute the skill points already in the game. Yes, I'm sure that there are people that have alts gaining skill points with the express purpose of selling them, but for the most part it is a re-distribution. And not an equal one either with the diminishing benefits that people get from using the injectors after a certain level.

I used the injectors to get myself up to speed with a few different skills associated with resources and industry and now that I don't get the full benefit of the injectors I am less interested.

So maybe consider some of these dailies/skill injector/extractors as a way of leveling the playing field so that there isn't such a gap between the rich and the poor (old and new, in terms of SP). There are still HUGE differences between people that have played the game for a long time and the newbies, these just seem to be a small stick-carrot to keep us more interested so that we continue playing and helping the game grow/develop for everyone.
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#120 - 2016-06-21 23:46:02 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:

Again I'm talking about it objectively, you're talking subjectively.

Let me also say this then, in your terns, I personally find no diminishing marginal utility in this reward, I can apply the SP to whatever I please, whether it be knocking time off a long train, or knocking out 1 or more short trainings, any of which could be on my active queue (which will is based on my neural map) or outside of it if I want to put them toward something that is outside my current mapping. I find the same level of usefulness regardless of what I put those points on, and what I put them on depends on my priorities.

Any percieved diminishing marginal utility is entirely in the mind of the user.

Back to my point all along, that OBJECTIVELY, there is nothing diminishing about this reward. How you choose to use it has no relevance to the fact that it is not a diminishing return.

In any case, CCP needs to get rid of dailies and skill trading (though I don't honestly expect the latter).


I know you are talking "objectively" and you are wrong to do so.

Look, if I have 10 doughnuts and you start eating them, that first doughnut might be great. Then by the time you get to the 6th one you might not even want it. Objectively it is the same thing as you ate the first time. A doughnut. But your enjoyment is diminishing. That is the point of diminishing marginal utility. It can and almost surely does apply to dailies. Yes, everyone gets the same 10,000/day. In that regard there is no diminishing anything. But it is the utility/usefulness that is diminishing. A guy training a rank 1 skill who has 100,000 SP will likely get "more bang" for his daily than he will when he has 100 million SP and is working on a rank 12 skill. In the former case his overall SP went up 10%, in the latter it went up by 0.01%.

Yes, the diminishing marginal utility is "in the mind of the user" but that does not make it any less real. A player, who is new today will likely be more inclined to log in to get his daily than in 5 years when he goes...."meh" it's just 10,000 SP.



You could say the same thing about anything in this game: kredits, LP, ships. 1M is a decent chunk to a newbie. It's a rat or two to anyone else. The same goes for anything kredits can buy.

If you enjoy just bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers, it matters little what game you play. You will hit a diminishing-returns wall somewhere, especially if there are other players involved.
It's just that some of them will sell you stuff to go faster, and some of them exist only to annoy you into paying for "that edge." Those are the games you want to avoid like the plague.

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