These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Innocence Lost: Death Toll

Author
Karina Ivanovich
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2016-06-11 06:29:40 UTC
Good and bad are one of the most commonly accepted false dichotomies. The concept of absolute right and wrong is in itself a classic example of a mind projection fallacy. In this case, that of a large portion of the world believing in moral absolutes, the false belief is not itself an image, but rather an illusory concept. For such a concept as absolute morals to exist the existence of circumstantial choice must be disproved or, as is commonly the case, ignored entirely. An individual choosing to ignore circumstantial variables can quite easily label something or some action as either black or white; with little room left to see any grey area.

However, it is indisputable that, depending on the situation at hand during any given scenario, people will and do react differently to outside stimuli. What do we really know of ourselves? If I ask who you really are; will you have an answer?

The question I pose to you all today is this. Why is it that we continue to paint the universe in blacks and whites? As capsuleers we have all killed thousands of people over our lifetimes. Be that for a great cause, or just to gain a marginal advantage in our lives, or to gain a little ISK. Are we truly capable of judging others, even other capsuleers, in the same light as ourselves. In any government or planetary settlement the actions most Capsuleers have taken, even in the name of things like honor, duty, freedom, country, or benevolence, would be seen as atrocities by anyone not guaranteed to reappear in a clone vat.

Governments can't control us. CONCORD can only hope to keep us in check. We run rampant over the explored galaxy. So much so that entire star nations use us a proxies for their wars. We are tools used by weak masters. And they realize this. But what choice do they have? What choice do we have?

We are the monsters that mothers warn their children about at night. We are the benevolent force of the galaxy. And most of us don't even care that every time we destroy a ship thousands of normals die. Every citadel that is lost means hundreds of thousands of civilian or non-capsuleer lives lost. We are a cancer, and there is no cure.

Some call me insane. If the universe is sane, then I embrace that label.

Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
#2 - 2016-06-11 07:30:23 UTC
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
As capsuleers we have all killed thousands of people over our lifetimes.

Speak for yourself.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-06-11 07:42:28 UTC
You seem to have this odd obsession with being a monster. You're far too presumptuous.

The monsters mothers warn their children about are typically men and women who have lost touch with their humanity and view themselves as something different. The irony in your waxing poetic here is that you're reinforcing the very separation between "capsuleer" and "baseliner" that creates those sociopathic behavioral trends.

The question shouldn't be "Can we judge?" The question should be "Can we look at ourselves in the mirror after judging ourselves?"

If we concede the ability to judge, that also means we concede the ability to judge our past actions and improve if we don't like what we see.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Aradina Varren
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#4 - 2016-06-11 08:00:59 UTC
This is very melodramatic.

You're melodramatic.

Feels Pretty Soft to Me.

Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2016-06-11 14:07:07 UTC
Having had a military background, I got past this point a long time ago.

In the back of your head, you count the cost of the lives taken. But at the end of the day, if you make it home alive, if your crew makes it back and you're lucky enough to have completed your mission, it's enough.

When people stop holding the thought of lives taken in their subconscious is when they lose their humanity.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#6 - 2016-06-11 14:13:52 UTC
Because for alot of people painting with all the colors of the rainbow is too much work, that or they simply don't know that blue and yellow make green, meaning they just don't know anything but the base "colors" enough to really paint a picture.

At least that's my opinion on the question.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#7 - 2016-06-11 15:27:16 UTC
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
Good and bad are one of the most commonly accepted false dichotomies. The concept of absolute right and wrong is in itself a classic example of a mind projection fallacy..

Only if your wrong.


Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2016-06-11 16:36:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
If I ask who you really are; will you have an answer?



I am a Capsuleer. I steer ships by thinking about it. I blow shite up and kill lots of people in the process for no greater cause but lining my wallet with ISK, because it is beneficial to me or whatever it was I am working on and also because I can.

I also enjoy pulp fiction, coffee, tinkering with things, monologuing, ramble about nonsense and play holo-games.

As for people who call us cancer, I like them to be reminded that even before we showed up they were already merrily blowing each other up for arbitrary reasons or some fundamentalist reasons. Sure, if they think we are monsters I suppose they are right. However, we are monsters of their creation. Heck, they created us to be weapons initially even!

Capsuleers or no, we, as a species, are highly destructive arseholes with itchy trigger fingers. Us Capsuleers just happen to be arseholes who have the biggest guns and the luxury of firing it over and over and over again no matter how many times we are burnt in the process.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2016-06-15 07:19:06 UTC
Innocence lies not in ignorance of our purpose, but in its boundless celebration.
...No matter how dark its nature or vast the ocean of our disquiet.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Arkoth 24
Doomheim
#10 - 2016-06-15 09:31:55 UTC
So confident. So proud. Still so naive.

You just repeat all the lies they gave you. An ultimate weapon? A pre-born killer? A monster?

An another module for a ship. A puppet. A fool.

And still desperately holding on to what you call your humanity. Your personality. Your memories stolen from the dead. The life you never had.

You're searching for answers. For a purpose. For a reason.

Will you be ready for 'em?
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2016-06-15 11:31:39 UTC
Arkoth 24 wrote:
So confident. So proud. Still so naive.

You just repeat all the lies they gave you. An ultimate weapon? A pre-born killer? A monster?

An another module for a ship. A puppet. A fool.

And still desperately holding on to what you call your humanity. Your personality. Your memories stolen from the dead. The life you never had.

You're searching for answers. For a purpose. For a reason.

Will you be ready for 'em?


If you are a puppet then who holds the strings?

And there is no rule against a module suddenly deciding that it wants to go take a break and detaches itself from the ship to grow some...Dominixes*. The moment said module develops self-awareness, the very moment it starts asking existential questions and ponders about whether Dominixes* are best baked or boiled, it has become a sentient entity and should be treated as such.

And if you have an answer to what we are, stop being an edgy trenchcoated Gallentean teenager with terrible hairstyle and too much eyeliner and just spit it out.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Lord Kailethre
Tengoo Uninstallation Service
#12 - 2016-06-15 12:31:28 UTC
You seem to be projecting your own false dichotomy of innocence and guilt upon capsuleers. In a sense no one is truly innocent nor guilty, there are varying degrees. A capsuleer who 'murders' thousands of crewmen aboard a Guristas battleship is perhaps just as guilty as the pirates are, for depriving families of their mothers and fathers, sons and daughters; but the pirates themselves do the same and perhaps in destroying this ship the capsuleer has saved more lives.

You ask if we are capable of judging others or ourselves and yet you do that very thing in your initial supposition.
Aradina Varren
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#13 - 2016-06-15 13:32:22 UTC
This is still very melodramatic.

You're all very melodramatic.

Feels Pretty Soft to Me.

Yarosara Ruil
#14 - 2016-06-15 15:29:36 UTC
From my point of view, the Horde are evil.
Erika Wallker
Titan Legion
Fraternity.
#15 - 2016-06-15 17:32:00 UTC
Yes I have killed many in my lifetime... But I can sleep at night knowing that those that I killed were enemies and wanted to hurt me or my friends. This lets me sleep at night.

Now I only kill sworn enemies of the Providence region, and only those that have been marked Kill on sight for crimes against us.

Pentag Blade!

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#16 - 2016-06-15 18:15:27 UTC
A nice cup of tea helps me sleep at night... Also the comfortable bed doesn't hurt.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2016-06-15 20:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Galente
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
From my point of view, the Horde are evil.


Well then you are lost!

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Tristan Valentina
Moira.
#18 - 2016-06-15 21:53:05 UTC
Yep to normal people we are monsters. We are the demigods who control the black endless void. We are so far above them that if they even try and contimplate our power they would go insane.

But in this world there are things that take demigods to stop. We are the monsters that humanity made to fight the monsters out here in the void. Let's just hope we are all enough monster to never lose to monsters that have yet to show themselves.

Tristan
Yarosara Ruil
#19 - 2016-06-15 22:52:07 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:


I HATE YOU!
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2016-06-16 01:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Lord Kailethre wrote:
You seem to be projecting your own false dichotomy of innocence and guilt upon capsuleers. In a sense no one is truly innocent nor guilty, there are varying degrees. A capsuleer who 'murders' thousands of crewmen aboard a Guristas battleship is perhaps just as guilty as the pirates are, for depriving families of their mothers and fathers, sons and daughters; but the pirates themselves do the same and perhaps in destroying this ship the capsuleer has saved more lives.

You ask if we are capable of judging others or ourselves and yet you do that very thing in your initial supposition.


Ultimately, the only lives we should be held responsible for are the lives of the crew on our own ships. That other ship has her own captain who is responsible for his or her own crew. If that other ship explodes, whatever happened to the crew of that ship isn't our problem.

I am not about to start writing condolence letters for the crew of that other ship which I had shot to pieces. That's the job of that other ship's captain.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

12Next page