Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Don;t you see the huge gaping holes it would create in the economy if ship were downright replaced even if only after 14 days? As soon as someone has a stack of ships in the process, he will no longer need to ever buy any more of those ships. You buy 14 of them and can loose one every single day of the year and never have to buy another one. How low do you think mineral usages would go for example?

TBH, the only recurring insurance I would be willing to add to the game is just the regular insurance policy with a checkbox to renew the contract when expired and in a station. Beside that, no.

You don't play industry much do you? Minerals are involved in most builds, but the vast majority of minerals are in ships. Let's take a fairly average Hurricane as an example, fit thusly:

[Hurricane, example cane]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Reactor Control Unit II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste

50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I

The ship consumes:

2700000 Trit
680001 Pye
190000 Mex
50001 Iso
6401 Zydrine
2600 Mega

The modules consume:

61336 Trit
26811 Pye
21528 Mex
804 Iso
19 Zydrine
66 Nocx

So on this random example, the ship consumes 97.78% of the trit, 96.21% of the pye, 89.82% of the mex, 98.42% of the iso, 99.70% of the zyd, and all the mega while not consuming nocx.

Now tell me with a straight face that the ship being replaced would have no effect on mining. Hopefully you can't, else you're not being at all honest with the situation.



Or maybe you're no longer at all risk averse because they'll magically reappear? I'd be frankly disappointed on days when I didn't lose a ship under your insurance conditions. Remember, you have to look at the use case after your change, not just before.



That would be very slightly better, but it would also drive specialization in a few ship types on a given character/account. Obviously your super alt only takes Hels and Wyverns, right? But then you'd also want an account (or character) to run Mach doctrines. Maybe that one can also get magic free Vindicators? The skills match up well enough.

So now we have downward pressure on minerals, upward pressure on plex, and (since free ships!) downward pressure on faction ship BPCs. You've pushed down T2 component prices along the way as well if you've included T2 ships in this insane mix. How have we helped the new player?

Well, we haven't. New players will be told -- quite rightly -- that they're doing it wrong if they choose their two free ships to be things they can even fly in the early game. It wouldn't be worthwhile to do so. You save those for when you can fly more of an end game ship.

And what if you let players switch which two ships they can insure, you ask? Then you might as well not have a restriction at all. Alliances will dictate which two should be ready to go at any given time for any mix of doctrines. Other players will do the same, swapping based on what they're losing lots of at any given time. Everyone will just follow the meta: right now I suppose it would be Svipuls and Garmurs in low, although Broadswords seem pretty popular. Suicide dreads would be... I mean, I can't even find words.

To summarize: no. This idea won't work. I hope I've given enough detail as to why. Kudos for being persistent and curious, but no.

this.....this is the most idiotic idea i ever heard.......

I am a ship builder and so i watch the market closely to see what best matches my corps inventory.
Your idea would over time, quickly or lengthy run me out of business in the FW department, the ganker department (if you think gankers would not take advantage of this on cats, talos, bumping machs then your insane.), freighters/orcas....all those parts and the ships themselves........

No dude, the only thing your idea will create is an EvE where you no longer have to buy any ship ever again once you insure it....and that is just lame.

Lame...because the sense of loss, or pride, or the journey of struggles and stories will all go down the isk sink with it.

And yes i have my own gank alts....i would seriously take advantage of this idea if it got implemented.

This is completely off topic regarding what this post is really about, but i get your point. keeping that in mind i'm not gonna comment this anymore then i just did. if you have any constructive regarding this in any further posts then actually do post a constructive post. Please also keep in mind that the first post in hand in this thread is updated with all replies i get during this thread.

To the future repliers to this post,

Keep in mind, this is a suggestion. with room for optional changes and adaption to players requirements and preferences.

Taking that into consideration. i would really like to see inputs on how this idea can be shaped into a functional feature rather then simply stating it is an "idiotic idea".

That is a pure subjective point of view. unless the majority states otherwise. i'm not claiming it's not, but you cannot claim it is.

So if you have any constructive input or changes that might turn this idea into a working system, feel free to utter your opinion. but if you only have a negative input on it as in "i hate this idea" then try and actually shape this into something that would work for you.

it's an idea, not a confirmed change. please keep this in mind.

Which, of course, is nominal. Sure, you have to save up for it a bit. But let's just say I go with a Machariel, shall we? I imagine it would be a popular choice. Hull is, what, 350mil? So let's take the outside of that estimate: at 4x ship hull price, lifetime insurance would cost 1.4bil. Just for the record, that's not much short of what I paid for my first Mach and they're certainly worth that. Honestly, if you don't have that liquid you probably oughtn't be flying a Mach, certainly not in PvP.

But let's keep playing this out. I pay 1.4bil for lifetime insurance along with another 3.5bil for 10 hulls. I only get to play every few days, so I could lose one a day at that rate and never have to make another purchase. All for under 5bil all in. Cheapo T2 fits would ensure that I never really go broke (and hell, if we really wanted to scam this up, I could also platinum insure the hulls on top of my lifetime insurance and make money every time I lose one, a use case that would have to be checked).

I'd pay that. In a heartbeat. It's a damn good deal. And on top of that, I'd never have to buy a blueprint again, putting a small (but not insignificant) downward pressure on the price of BPCs. I'd never have to sink minerals again, meaning that for every hull lost about 160mil in minerals would be created out of thin air. Yes, I'd lose MORE of them than I ever have (likely in the first week), but I'd be utterly insulated from industry the whole time. My industrial alts are crying.

Now, consider that maybe a fifth of the server chooses Machariels (as cost and availability are actually somewhat limiting on this ship for everyday use). Conservatively, that's 20% lower demand on Mach BPCs and hulls. Prices plummet. 800mm ACs rise a bit, but that's cyclic anyway. That's a HUGE effect.



If you know industry, please show that knowledge in your proposal. What you're suggesting has truly massive implications on this front. If you've merely dabbled in it, I'm afraid there's quite a bit more to learn from experience watching sell patterns and mineral consumption trends. I'm not here to call you ignorant, but please take the knowledge you have in the area and work through the implications.



That's a nice thought. It's also probably wrong. SRP would be based around having the "right" thing insured. Picked wrong? No new ships for you. Better fly something affordable.

And see, sometimes player choices, when they have such dramatic effects, are actually very bad. I haven't checked your character age but I'll go out on a limb and say that remaps have existed for your entire Eve career; if I'm wrong I apologize. Curmudgeonly history lesson: this was not always the case. My poor main was stuck on a permanent mem/per remap with far too much charisma to boot. It was a mistake, and it was a permanent one (until remaps were introduced). Permanently sticking someone with a choice early in their Eve career is bad. A new pilot might want that permanent stream of Vexors, but that's only because they can't scrape together change for permanent NVexors and can't yet fly Ishtars -- and that's assuming they still like drones in a year or two or ten. And CCP doesn't nerf your prefered ship into the ground and out from under your feet. Which happens and will continue to happen.

On the other hand, NOT permanently sticking someone with the choice -- allowing them to change later for the nominal fee of 4x hull cost -- means that, yes, corporations and alliances will be all to happy to force players to swap if they want reimbursement, which in turn will dramatically cut back on mineral consumption during wars (to say nothing of making supers and titans unkillable in any consequential sense).

Sure, the upfront cost is high, but hot damn, once you've paid it you can yolo that Erebus every two weeks and laugh about it. And that's assuming you only have one hull. If you have two, that's once a week. Three? Once every 4.5 days. And remember: you can afford three. You've already paid for five; what's seven at that point?



I also have a ton of ships of various types. This proposal would probably cut back on my ship diversity (seriously, I'd use my free Machariels for things I'd never dream of risking them on now). Not only would I not have to consume anything to replace that one hull, if I choose properly I can repurpose that hull to do whatever the hell I want with it, reducing my consumption of other ship hulls. Fewer minerals consumed. Fewer ships purchased. For an initial 5bil investment, I would hardly have to touch the ship market ever again.

I've never really liked it when OP reacts to feedback by claiming that it's on everyone else to fix an idea. It just seems... condescending. "I'm the idea guy and can't be wrong; if you don't like it, you just haven't worked out the right details for me yet." But maybe that's just me.

Let's play by your rules though. I'll propose solutions to problems I've pointed out. I'll also shoot them down, because efficiency.

First, let's play with the biggest problem: mineral consumption.

Proposal: have the market auto-buy minerals to make sure that prices don't crash. Let's say there is some sort of criterion for which ones are bought. Making it Jita-exclusive is totally unfair, so let's say the lowest price minerals anywhere are bought up until the build cost (perfect ME) is filled before the ship is reissued. Let's say this happens at some specific time -- say, downtime on the day before the ship is reimbursed.

Issue with solution: please tell me you can see this one coming. Market shenanigans. Say you have a huge load of minerals in null that you don't want to move to market. Your alt has an Avatar you've just been dying to use in some criminally stupid way. So you do just that. Just before downtime 14 days after your loss, you post your minerals just low enough that they're all bought up. Or, hell, you can provide that as a service for your corp. Easy mineral sales with no logistics! Awesome. So now you have cash AND a new ship.

I honestly don't see a way around this.

Second problem: Faction BPCs.

Proposal 1: Faction ships aren't eligible for lifetime insurance.

Issue with solution: None, really. We're probably going to be limited to basic T1 ships for this anyway, which limits the appeal in the first place, but hey: solution.

Proposal 2: As an alternative, BPCs are floored by NPC buy orders.

Issue with solution: NPC buy orders suck. This sort of works for things like sleeper blue loot and OPEs, but it's still a massive cash injection into the economy. That's the reason you can't just give out cash for a loss under this scheme in the first place.

Third problem: ancillary market crashes (PI, T2 components, T3 components, etc.)

Proposal: Nothing but basic T1 hulls is eligible for lifetime insurance.

Issue with solution: see above. None, but suddenly you're not offering much of a service. It helps new players somewhat and ensures a sea of vanilla battleships in fleet battles but the value of the offer has gone way down.

Fourth problem: either you allow players to change which ships are insured or they're stuck with poor, outdated choices.

Proposal: Ugh. No way out of this one. Neither choice is really viable here. Sorry.

Fifth problem: Malcanis's Law

Or, in more detail, older, established players that can afford 4x the cost of a Nyx get far, far more benefit out of this than new players who think they're set for life because they scraped together 4x the cost of a Drake.

Proposal 1: cap the scheme as only applying for, say, the first year of a character's life.

Issue with solution: why a year, first of all. At some point a player is going to hit a wall when the insurance sunsets and losses are meaningful. If you set that at a year, I could see people training for six months into a single ship, buying not-actually-lifetime insurance, swapping training to another character, and then spending the next six months with free ships while preparing to repeat, biomassing the first character at the 1 year mark. This is... well, bad. Incentivizing that behaviour just seems awfully wrong. Oh, and it also favors the rich in a big way: skill inject a 1 day character into, again, let's go with an Avatar and you have free titans for a year. Or dreads, as already mentioned. It's brilliant, and it breaks things horribly.

Proposal 2: SP cap lifetime insurance

Issue with solution: again, please tell me you see this coming. If you want to make this a meaningful scheme, the SP cap has to be high enough for someone to really experience the game before committing but low enough to be restrictive. That's an awfully tight balance in the first place. More importantly, it also incentivizes very focused skill plans that stay just under the cap. At that point you either swap training to an alt or vampire the excess off for injectors, neither of which is desirable as it just encourages highly focused pilots and lots of alts for every which purpose.

********************

So there you go. Proposals for fixes.

So you're basically saying you would never buy or fly another ship type at all? If the lifetime insurance is bound to account/character limited to 1-2 ships, you would only fly those? i don't think that would be the case.

Yes you will earn money, but that will take you (14 x 4) + (14 x 10) days to do. Because you have to factor in the time you have to wait to get the ships back, and the loss of X number of ships that would otherwise not be replaced by the insurance.
So until you've passed 196 days, you will make money off that platinum insurance, if you keep rebuying it to maintain it for 196 days. But let's ask, what happens after the 196 days, when you blow up your ship and you have to wait 14 days to fly it again? That's the real question. Will you buy smaller ships, fly them? or will you stop playing for 14 days because you don't want to do anything BUT fly that specific ship?



For that specific 1 or 2 ships you insure. Your timeframe on the actual waiting time does not match the waiting time that is ment to be enforced here. Your industry alts will still have plenty of work to do. Don't get me wrong, but i think you're looking at the "immediate" threat, but after this has been in work for quite some time you will find several industry tasks that is not even affected by this.
Not to mention taking into consideration the amount of ships people fly, they will never only have 2 ships. They will on the other hand have several smaller ships perhaps, and i would be as bold as to say they will not take the losses that hard, resulting in maybe an increase in ship losses on the smaller ones, which would then increase the demand for industry on smaller ships? We can InFact only speculate on this, as this is theory.
The reality here is you're afraid the demand for ships will be reduced on the high end right? ok, take this into consideration:

A new player starts EVE, the first ship they get is the free. So you start your journey and you skill up, you make your first isk and you buy yourself a better ship. now you discover the isk/hour is not at it's peak, but you're able to buy the lifetime insurance. ok, so you do that, you loose your ship 4-10 times. Then you've made more isk, eventually you can buy a better ship, a vastly more expensive one. but you don't want to loose that one either. so you terminate the insurance on the previous ship. and upgrade to the newer one. Rince repeat this for a loooong period of time, and eventually you have more players buying higher-end ships, and on the way there, they will still buy more ships. they will still aquire other ships while they wait for that one or two insured ships to actually be available.

Heck for all we know, we're humans we can forget to insure the ship aswell once in awhile.
Now for the additional purpose of demonstrating, what if you stopped playing for 2 months, and both your lifetime insurances gets terminated?

Will you stop playing?
Will you get a platinum insurance?
Will you fly the ship un-insured?
Would you then proceed to re-make the isk required to lifetime insure 2 ships over again?

Let's go with the last part, ok, so you decide to regrind, but you only have the ships you lifetime insured, because you don't wanna spend isk on ships you can't lifetime insure. ok so you get blown up before you get the lifetime one.. crap! Welcome back to EVE.



Your own words here, stating you would use the ship for things you wouldn't dream of, meaning you will up the risk of loosing the ship because you get it back. now let's address that, and for a second say you blow that ship up right away. i ask again, what will be your activity for the next 14 days?

This is legitimately insane.