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Are Hurricanes pointless?
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Aamrr
#21 - 2012-01-14 21:16:07 UTC
Dyaven wrote:
How me a Talos and/or Tornado fit that has both better DPS and Tank than a Hurricane while remaining similarly agile.


No, no, that's not fair. In Cyzlaki's world, only DPS matters. Everybody knows that doing more than 800 DPS turns a paper tank into a special force field of invincibility.
Marz Ghola
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-01-14 21:26:22 UTC
Ryuce wrote:
I honestly think the guy is this clueless regarding Minmatar ships. He recently made a comment about SFI's being unable to use armor fits outside AHAC fleets.

E: Are you trying to sell Tornados?


fkn used car salesman, that figuresUgh
Aamrr
#23 - 2012-01-14 21:41:39 UTC
And every last one of them has sawdust in the engine!
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-01-14 21:44:22 UTC
And the more DPS it does, the better it tracks, right?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#25 - 2012-01-14 21:52:38 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Dyaven wrote:
How me a Talos and/or Tornado fit that has both better DPS and Tank than a Hurricane while remaining similarly agile.


No, no, that's not fair. In Cyzlaki's world, only DPS matters. Everybody knows that doing more than 800 DPS turns a paper tank into a special force field of invincibility.


In my world, the ability to do DPS without dying matters. Which is why I engaged:

2 Myrm, 2 Cane, 3 Drake, [Brutix], Arazu, [2 Blackbird], Arbitrator, [Osprey], [Bellicose], Rupture, Catalyst, Cormorant, [2 Thrasher], [Punisher], [Merlin], Rifter

vs

Talos, 3 Tornado, Cane, Ares, Oracle

Being in [] indicates it died.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aamrr
#26 - 2012-01-14 21:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
And the more DPS it does, the better it tracks, right?


No, not quite. You just ignore signature resolution.

Oh, and you can multiply things by zero and get nonzero results. That's pretty cool, too.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#27 - 2012-01-14 22:00:23 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
And the more DPS it does, the better it tracks, right?


No, not quite. You just ignore signature resolution.

Oh, and you can multiply things by zero and get nonzero results. That's pretty cool, too.


Oh and a bunch of numbers that people assume are right trumps the actual in game performance too, amirite? :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aamrr
#28 - 2012-01-14 22:08:56 UTC
Only if a few anecdotal killmails constitute more evidence than the years of successful use that formula has seen.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2012-01-14 22:15:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Oh and a bunch of numbers that people assume are right trumps the actual in game performance too, amirite?
For comparative purposes, absolutely, especially since the numbers aren't actually assumed, whereas the performance is (on top of being quite incomparable unless under circumstances that would be derided as even less realistic than the numerical analysis).
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-01-14 22:18:10 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

In my world, the ability to do DPS without dying matters. Which is why I engaged:

2 Myrm, 2 Cane, 3 Drake, [Brutix], Arazu, [2 Blackbird], Arbitrator, [Osprey], [Bellicose], Rupture, Catalyst, Cormorant, [2 Thrasher], [Punisher], [Merlin], Rifter

vs

Talos, 3 Tornado, Cane, Ares, Oracle

Being in [] indicates it died.

-Liang


But, but, but that doesn't mean the Talos is op!

It just means you have l33t pvp skillz Liang!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#31 - 2012-01-14 22:24:52 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

In my world, the ability to do DPS without dying matters. Which is why I engaged:

2 Myrm, 2 Cane, 3 Drake, [Brutix], Arazu, [2 Blackbird], Arbitrator, [Osprey], [Bellicose], Rupture, Catalyst, Cormorant, [2 Thrasher], [Punisher], [Merlin], Rifter

vs

Talos, 3 Tornado, Cane, Ares, Oracle

Being in [] indicates it died.

-Liang


But, but, but that doesn't mean the Talos is op!

It just means you have l33t pvp skillz Liang!


I liked your post. Twisted

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#32 - 2012-01-14 22:25:31 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Only if a few anecdotal killmails constitute more evidence than the years of successful use that formula has seen.


When was the last time you verified the hit and tracking formulas?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#33 - 2012-01-14 22:27:29 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
When was the last time you verified the hit and tracking formulas?
When was the last time they were suspected to have changed?
Aamrr
#34 - 2012-01-14 22:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
About 5 minutes ago, apparently -- but we gotta pay attention, cuz it's zomg Liang Nuren doing it!11!

Hint: When the formula is officially hosted on the eve online website, you'd think they'd mention a thing or two about it in the patch notes.
Name Family Name
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2012-01-14 22:53:05 UTC
So - the Gallente Tier 3 BC outperforms the Minmatar Tier 2 at speed and EFT DPS whereas dealing damage is pretty much it's only role whereas the Hurricane is more versatile and tanks better...

Sounds like it's working as intended.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#36 - 2012-01-14 22:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Aamrr wrote:
About 5 minutes ago, apparently -- but we gotta pay attention, cuz it's zomg Liang Nuren doing it!11!

Hint: When the formula is officially hosted on the eve online website, you'd think they'd mention a thing or two about it in the patch notes.


You are forgetting that the "Turret DPS" formula was also hosted on the Eve-O site and experimentally shown to be incorrect. In fact, I can't recall any formula that CCP has published. And nor have I seen them confirm any formula to be correct.

Tippia wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
When was the last time you verified the hit and tracking formulas?
When was the last time they were suspected to have changed?


You should pay attention more - pretty much every patch has someone saying its acting slightly differently. Furthermore, this is :ccp: we're talking about - who knows what they'll screw up when adding a new CQ? :P

-Liang

Ed: And the thing I'm trying to point out here is this:

"
I dunno Khrage, I think its time that people stopped living in EFT and started playing the game. Its all well and good to argue from the theoretical foundation that EFT gives, but there's entirely too little weight given to actual practical results. EFT and numerical analysis should be a basis for forming a suspicion of how things work - not the final arbiter of who is right on these intarweb forumz.

-Liang
"

Taken from https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=643099#post643099

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2012-01-14 23:03:50 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
You should pay attention more - pretty much every patch has someone saying its acting slightly differently.
Yes, and every patch, people have to explain that random numbers are random and that the “someone” of the day needs to provide some data to support their assertions, which they never do.

So far, nothing to the effect of saying the CTH formula being invalid has been offered. The kinds of claims the OP comes up with are thoroughly unsupported by… everything.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#38 - 2012-01-14 23:11:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
You should pay attention more - pretty much every patch has someone saying its acting slightly differently.
Yes, and every patch, people have to explain that random numbers are random and that the “someone” of the day needs to provide some data to support their assertions, which they never do.

So far, nothing to the effect of saying the CTH formula being invalid has been offered. The kinds of claims the OP comes up with are thoroughly unsupported by… everything.


No, the kind of claims the OP is making come from actual combat... which is slightly different than nice theoretical situations where everyone orbits in nice pretty perfect circles...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#39 - 2012-01-14 23:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, the kind of claims the OP is making come from actual combat... which is slightly different than nice theoretical situations where everyone orbits in nice pretty perfect circles.
The OP claims that large turrets track better than medium turrets. He makes this claim based on shooting large turrets and based on theoretical numbers without any consideration of how they are used by the game engine.

Not only is that a useless source of information, but he is also using a theoretical argument that is based on absolutely nothing. The first part might be excused; the latter part is what's so mind-bogglingly silly, especially since he tried to hide it behind a curtain of them being “practical” just because he reads them from an in-game stat screen.
Aamrr
#40 - 2012-01-14 23:15:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, the kind of claims the OP is making come from actual combat... which is slightly different than nice theoretical situations where everyone orbits in nice pretty perfect circles...

Which would change their angular velocity, but does nothing to change the interaction between signature resolution, signature radius, and the tracking attribute.

Do you mind making a point that isn't a red herring?